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hitoriko
1st October 2009, 11:45 AM
Car - AE86

motor - 4AGE N/a Build

use - Track

problem - Im not sure im building it right..

Ok heres the deal im starting to source bits for my 4age build and im starting witht he head, im just wanting to know if there is any problems with what im doing or better options that i can use.

This is head only.

Bigport Bluetop Head
- 256/264/272/288 cams (depends what i can find)
- HKS adjustable cam gears
- HKS/TOMEI/Greedy/TRD/Gates Timing Belt (doesn't matter which really)
- clear cam gear cover
- stainless os valves (32mm intake and 27.5mm exhaust) with bronze guides
- Ferrea racing valve stem seals
- std lifters
- HKS/Crow double valve springs & retainers
- 4AGZE or 7MTGE injectors
- JDM RWD intake TVIS butterflies removed
- reco head with lots of port work and maybe decked 10 or 20thou

is there anything i shuold do extra to the head to make it better, should i upgrade the lifters aswell? i feel like im missing something but not sure what

ideas?

trueno85
1st October 2009, 11:56 AM
what computer are you going to run? not doing anything on the bottom end?

PeakingDuck
1st October 2009, 11:59 AM
How many kw's does the clear cam cover add?

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 12:04 PM
Bottom end
- 40thou 3rib bored block
- 40thou TIK Pistons
- std rods
- MAHALE 040 racing rings
- std crank reco
- KING/ACL bearing throughout
- ARP bolts throughout
- std oil pump (modified spring for better pressure)
- std oil pickup
- std sump

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 12:04 PM
How many kw's does the clear cam cover add?

none - you fail at being funny

slideways
1st October 2009, 12:06 PM
Well It looks like you are prepared to spend a bit of coin, so for the money + sound this is what I would do....


Find a Blacktop head.

O.S. Valves if you want, more importantly, get the chambers ported and cc'ed.

Upgrade springs, Solid lifters. 1sz lifters from a yarris work.

With solid lifters you can start looking at higher lift cams.

288 duration would make for good all round performance. And a sexy lump idle.

Quad throttle's

ARP head studs, metal head gasket.

Forged pistons, shot peened rods and a balanced crank shaft in a 7 rib block.

A qaulity oil cooler with braided lines and nice big fittings.

And your set.

PeakingDuck
1st October 2009, 12:15 PM
none - you fail at being funny

If your 86 is intended for track you may as well not fit any cam cover.

IMHO sell the clear cam cover and put the money towards your performance upgrades.

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 12:19 PM
ok well i dont want to go to over the top, i've spent too much time gatering parts and not enough building :P and i dont want to run ITBs.

valve springs - i'll upgrade as i ahve to with the bigger valves.
im considering cams of 272in and 288ex with about 8mm lift
and yes arp bolts through out.

the pistons i have seem to be quite good actually, and as for rods i was thinking 4AGZE or Spool, but i was also wondering if there are aother rods that fit like from another motor.

i have a greedy emanage piggy back i'll be running and i'll try and find a JDM bigport ecu aswell

Headgasket i was looking at a cosmetic on 1mm thick - would this be about right? or should i uses a lower one like .5mm HKS one?

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 12:20 PM
If your 86 is intended for track you may as well not fit any cam cover.

IMHO sell the clear cam cover and put the money towards your performance upgrades.

i'll be using the clear cover so nothing kicks into teh cam gears (low chance of it happening) but why risk it esp since i already got the cam cover and got it cheaper than the group buy that was run.

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 12:24 PM
Upgrade springs, Solid lifters. 1sz lifters from a yarris work.
With solid lifters you can start looking at higher lift cams.

how hard is this to do and is it a requirement of bigger cams or is it just something you should do for peace of mind?

PeakingDuck
1st October 2009, 12:30 PM
i dont want to run ITBs.

How bout a open bell-mouth?

slideways
1st October 2009, 12:33 PM
how hard is this to do and is it a requirement of bigger cams or is it just something you should do for peace of mind?

Well when you increase the valve lift, you increase the chance of the camshaft spitting a shim. = :peek:

Also solid liffters mean you can go higher lift = better flow = more air = more hp.

The only hard part is getting the lifter thickness right. This means you need to have the cams first. Install them, check clearances. measure total shim + bucket thickness. Then purchase the corresponding 1sz buckets.

If your in sydney, I know a guy in brooky who can do all the measuring for you, at a reasonable price. Once you have the measurements you can order and install them yourself.

Do you already have the head? You should consider a smallport, as they flow much better in the power range you are looking for.

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 12:39 PM
i have 3 bigport heads, 4 bottom ends (one was a carby engine but is using a 7rib bottom may or may not have work done to it - haven't taken the head off to see if theres any work done to it) and 2 bigport complete looms & ECUs and a JDM Bigport RWD intake - to much mucking around to go small port at this stage, and plus if i do go for more power the head wont need to be touched it will just be the bottom end so i'll see. :)

thanks for the info... looks like i'll be after yaris lifters after i get the head recoed

slideways
1st October 2009, 12:43 PM
The power is all in the head!

The bottom end just needs to be able to hold the power.

slideways
1st October 2009, 12:46 PM
Also a head will only cost you $50 - $100, and if you going to reco it any way.

Just sell some part, buy a smallport or 20v.

Unless your going turbo, then the money you spend on a bigport for power won't be worth it.

And trust me after all the money and time you spend building this, the last thing you want is to be dissapointed at the end result.


Just my opinion :))

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 12:48 PM
no replacement for displacement... :)

since 40thou is as much as i can go safely thats where im staying - or should i sell the 40 thou pistons, rings, block and just use a good 7rib bottom end (perhaps a 20v one with oil squirters?) and keep the bottom std just rplace the oil pump, and the bolts with arp items?

slideways
1st October 2009, 12:57 PM
no replacement for displacement... :)

since 40thou is as much as i can go safely thats where im staying - or should i sell the 40 thou pistons, rings, block and just use a good 7rib bottom end (perhaps a 20v one with oil squirters?) and keep the bottom std just rplace the oil pump, and the bolts with arp items?

Ok didn't realise you already had those parts.

Keep that stuff it will up the compression nicely.

All 7ribs block are the same, i think they are all squirted.

Still consider head work becasue you can make alot of gains their, for not a huge amount of money.

Or you could just turbo a gze?

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 01:01 PM
nup no turbo ick :P

NA is the way for me - if i wanted turbo i would ahve put in a sr20 so yeah

ae71
1st October 2009, 03:34 PM
All 7ribs block are the same, i think they are all squirted.


quite sure aw11 4age was 7 rib 42mm crank, no oil squirters


also with the cam sizes, these a lot of difference in 256-288...

having smaller cams can actually make you go faster then having too large a cam for the rest of the motor and decreasing performance.

should weigh up the rest of the set-up, aimed power range, power target. also large cams work best with short gearing.

7mgte injectors are 440cc ? that is stupidly large for a N/a motor. try for something like 7mge, if your using larger cams and standard compression then you may actually find that the standard or only slightly larger (smallport?) injectors will be fine.

i dont think there will be a need for much porting, esp the intake. you need to keep the air speed up, a bigport head with no TVIS is going to be a bit boggy at low revs at the best of times. polishing up the exhaust ports could be a good idea tho, shiny exhaust ports reduce the build up of carbon.

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 04:12 PM
quite sure aw11 4age was 7 rib 42mm crank, no oil squirters


also with the cam sizes, these a lot of difference in 256-288...

having smaller cams can actually make you go faster then having too large a cam for the rest of the motor and decreasing performance.

should weigh up the rest of the set-up, aimed power range, power target. also large cams work best with short gearing.

7mgte injectors are 440cc ? that is stupidly large for a N/a motor. try for something like 7mge, if your using larger cams and standard compression then you may actually find that the standard or only slightly larger (smallport?) injectors will be fine.

i dont think there will be a need for much porting, esp the intake. you need to keep the air speed up, a bigport head with no TVIS is going to be a bit boggy at low revs at the best of times. polishing up the exhaust ports could be a good idea tho, shiny exhaust ports reduce the build up of carbon.

Im hoping to make power around the 7500rpm mark
im wanting to beable to red line every gear everytime and have the power there - 272/288 are the highest i'd go unless i found a pair of 264's at the very worst i'd ditch teh 288 and run 264/272

So 4agze/7mge are the way to go injector wise?

the whole head is going to have a nice port polish, and i think with these bigger valves i should beable to move alot more air aswell

ae71
1st October 2009, 04:28 PM
keeping the factory redline 7500~8000 will make the motor live much longer..

if you want to keep a redline of say 7500 then you want to make peak power at say 6000-6500, that way you are actually able to use what power you do have. other wise your wasting it, you ring it in one gear, go to the next gear and these nothing. you dont want that obviously. look at a dyno sheet, you will note the power usually peaks before the red line, thats how you want it.

also you mentioned about using 4agze rods... they wont fit with the common bigport 40mm crank obviously as they are suited to a 42mm crank.

personally id try the standard injectors for starters. if you try putting larger injectors in the standard computer will be opening the injectors for the same period of time. being that they are are larger they will flow more fuel in the same amount of time. so going slightly larger injectors should be able to be tuned with a piggy back.. a JDM ecu may not be much help as you will be fine tuning it with a piggy back, only thing that may effect you is the limiter cut.

redsprinter
1st October 2009, 04:53 PM
question: why arent you go aftermarket full comp ?

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 05:52 PM
well i would go full aftermarket comp...BUT its all about the coin, im getting married and just got a house and i already got the emanage from a mate cheap so i figure i'll stick with it until i have to upgrade.

AE71 - so perhaps keep a stock bottom end and just refesh it and drop all the cash into the head for the time being?

Konakid
1st October 2009, 06:36 PM
Hmmmm.

If you are going to the trouble of dropping a heap of money on a built motor id make it rev to around 8500 so its more fun to drive and it will make more power given the right head combo.

If you are going to cheap out on the entire thing that runs and tunes the sum of all the expensive parts you have built to make your motor then i would sell all your parts, grab a low km 20V and chuck a programmable ecu on that and make the same power you would make with doing a full build with a half arsed computer.

Ive seen a 4K+ built 16V bigport with 288 cams and ITB's with an Apexi SAFC computer make only 86rwkw.

Ive seen a stock bigport with an exhaust, filter and a programmable ecu make 78rwkw

Heaps of 20V's with exhaust + ecu make 90rwkw.

There is no point in 'building' a 4age unless you are aiming to get at least 95rwkw in my opinion.

Fuck spending 6K on a built motor then have someone in a ecu'd 20V make more power than you!

ke70dave
1st October 2009, 06:42 PM
hmmm i think you may need to rethink your strategy mate!

that list of stuff that you are looking at buying for your head, is going to be at least a few thousand dollars. oversized valves, guides. have you considered the machining costs on getting these things installed? your talking ALOT of cash.

but then you say you dont have enough money for an aftermarket ecu?

i say attack it like this

if you are going to be sustantially changing the volumetric efficiency of the engine (which you are), with cams/compression/valve sizes you MUST buy an aftermarket ecu.

adaptronic can be had for ~$1500 or so, though there was a group buy on toymods for 700 a few weeks ago. very annoyed i didnt have $700

as for the rest of your engine, it depends how far you want to go.

but for what you are talking about with money restrictions, i woudl start with the later generation head (smallport). at least your already ~10kw in front of a bigport for starters.

then pick where you want your peak power, i agree with what "ae71" has said above. keep it reasonable. or you will end up with an engine that is only good in a straight line. and as soon as you miss a gear, that civic you were racing will go right past you. picking your peak power position allows you to choose your camshaft (like was said the difference between 256 and 288 is pretty massive).

i dunno if changing to shim under bucket is worth it. de[emds on how psycho you go with the cams. ive never really considered it myself so cant really comment. keep in mind if you pay someone to install cams and shim under bucket what not your looking at a few hours labour @ ~$120/hr.

also if your going to go to the effort of putting in some bigger cam shafts, i would definatly seriously consider quad throttle bodys. make up a proper air box for them (like proper welded aluminium box with a proper filter system and cold feed) and your engine will love you for it.

have a look at that blokes car from "infinite autosports" the site sponsour, he has a fairly hot 4age. (i think thats who it is..)

Rice86
1st October 2009, 06:44 PM
my mates aw11 with silvertop 20V bog standard with haltech ECU tuned at 94kwatws....
think about it man...but STILL, do as you wish though =]

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 07:03 PM
considering i already have the following:

the oversized valves & guides, the stem seals, 3 good bottom ends, 1 in pieces and bored 40thou, adjustable cam gears, jdm intake and e-manage.

i hardly think i could sell all of that and get a 20v motor.

plus the ecu situation is only a temp one, i mean if i have it why not use it and get the car running - as for the cams its only looking that high as i maybe able to get some around that size cheap from a local importer.

besides i want to build an engine because hey i wanna say i built it, i choose the parts i torqued the bolts etc..

as for the head machining yes it will cost me but if later on i decide to go turbo or even 7AGE the head can jump motors and i wont ahve to spend the money again, im thinking in terms of this head is going to beable to support the future aswell as the present and considering you dont alot of difference between 160hp and 200hp (head post wise) may aswell get it so it can support that kinda power

unless im offered a REALLY good deal for all my 16v stuff i dont think a 20v is in my future

Sam-Q
1st October 2009, 07:15 PM
have you considered the fact that you might lose power by putting those valves in?

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 07:49 PM
how so?

Sam-Q
1st October 2009, 07:56 PM
bigger valves doesnt always mean more power its like how making the inlet ports bigger. I vaugley remember Bill Sherwood mentioning something about how under a certain max power level you lose power by going to bigger valves. I can try and look for it?

Either way big valves and moderate cams is a very odd combination

hitoriko
1st October 2009, 08:16 PM
yeah please do if you can find it it would be great!

well anything cams wise 264 and upwards you should remove the TVIS for less restriction correct? so wouldn't having bigger valves also help? and since i'll prolly stick with the 40thou over bore there should be more power - am i looking at it wrong?

more air + more combustion size = more power?

lo_rolla
3rd October 2009, 05:36 PM
It's well and good to have more air... But what you also want is air speed.

The faster you can get more air in and the faster you get it out the more power you make.

Just to clarify: if you have oversize valves on a mild motor you'll lose power as there is less vacuum created. Less vacuum = less air speed = less total air intake.