netural handling

[redsprinter]

hi all .

just wondering and i know what i am about to ask is very vague . so here goes .

what setup will give me a nice neutral handling car . dont want it to oversteer or understeer . unless i provoke it . dont know if this would make any sense and if this type of setup is more based on driver skill or mechanical setup.

ive seen some footages of minis, ep3 and some old holdens and ford raceing and they were throwing these car around. might not be the fastest way but sure looked like alot of fun. basically it looked like they were driving it to the cars limit.

OR am i just being silly?

john.

[marvis]

In what?

[hachi_dk]

are you looking for neutral or natural handling, as your one letter off from each word?

edit: im assuming neutral as natural sounds retarded.

if your looking for alignment specs ive heard good things about 2 deg neg camber, 3 pos castor, 2mm total of toe out.
ill be running something similar and should have my front end sorted within the week and il let you know if it resembles something that you described above.

[Dylan]

Whats your current setup?

[Rice86]

with every mod you have on your car, set them back to stock specs as possible, 0 camber, this and that, and start all over again...

sort out ride height then damper and then what else

[Konakid]

it comes down to how you tune the car with springs and swaybars.

Certain fr/rr swaybar combos will give an oversteering or understeering biased car depending on their sizing.

[ae71]

for neutral handling keep the standard swaybars and tune the spring rates. modifiying the swaybars (particually the rear) will help tune the the back end.

generally speaking the stiffer the the stiffer the rear is compared the front the more it will oversteer.

having big swayabars doesnt allow the tyres to work properly. the body needs to be able to shift forward/back, side to side. take a look at v8 supercars, esp when they are doing there warm up lap, how much movement there is in there suspension.

adjustable rear arms will also allow for the diff to be tilted down for max traction.

[Sam-Q]

I think it might pay to start saying what you have right now

[redsprinter]

alot of my suspension mods are really almost unknown . since either i bought them on the car or it was given to me by a mate .. here goes .

fronts -
ma61 coilovers - spring rate guess about 8kgs
shocks - k-sport adjustable shocks given by a mate set on maxed soft setting.
powersteering knuckles
sprinter LCA
-NO RCAs


rears - trd reds adjustable shocks
currently running - 4 kgs ( on the softer side) or drift days i put in heavier say aprox.
6kgs

whiteline swaybars front a rear . whiteline panhard rod.
-standard 4links
-locked t-series

alignment specs:
-2 camber
+1 toe
- max caster out on standard castor rods.

all bushes have been done.

tyres - 195/50 r15 bridgestone re001

[redsprinter]

so ultimately i want to have it close as neutral as possible.

the car is mainly used for drifting so far . but its my daily and i like going on spirited drives, and dont want to limit my self to only one form of motor sport.

over the next few month after the diff gets re-built, exhaust fixed and a proper tune i want to get down to suspension and figure the shit that i have .

as of now the current setup works. alittle stiff for my liking and syd's shitty roads. but it does the job . car feels good at high speed. understeer can be felt but the tyres do a good job at holding the line even when i go into a corner to hot and understeer . Oversteer is pretty much a clucth kick away, but i havent had the tail just whip out (plus i've never had a chance to drive that fast yet)

BUT , going back to the original post. i want to ultimately be able to throw my car into a corner at speeds, not understeer or oversteer and have it hold its line . i know that there is also a great car control involved as well. but if i can setup my car like that at least ill be on the right path .

OT- can a mod please edit the title with the correct spelling . my bad . :yeah:

[sundee]

i think there are alot of variables in getting a car neutraly balanced :

front to rear spring rate balance
front to rear ride height
front to rear shock balance
front to rear swaybar balance
front to rear track width
front to rear tyre choice and rim width

then front and rear wheel alignment

though their will always be a point that the car will go into either understeer or oversteer
if it didnt it would be the perfect race car and would be literally on train tracks.

[Chairs with flares]

If you have height adjustable coilovers, use them to evenly distibute corner weights.

[slydar]

more rear track.

not too much bar.

7/5/5.5 springs

equal ride height front to rear.

not too deep offset

not too much stretch

same tires front and back

etc. basically not too outlandish anything.

also make sure you have a decent amount of droop.

[Eason]

http://www.thorneymotorsport.co.uk/content/site/images/suspension/suspensionsetup.pdf

http://i34.tinypic.com/2cyjs5x.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/2yuxa89.jpg

[Rice86]

only way to go about this is to use what you got on the track (grip)..

drive it to your limits, then push the car to another level itself...you'll reliese the weak points then... until you get some grip drive sessions pushing at 120%, you wont be sure of any changes you make will work as it should...

any car can handle like its on rails, just drive slower and it will...if you want to drive fast, you should think of a Plane..as its able to fly in any condition of any degree, planes > trains anyday

[Kid Karola]

First you can't really compare AE86/Corolla directly to old Holden/Fords as they were much bigger/heavier or the Mini much smaller/lighter and FWD. Apples and oranges. Also V8 Supercars mentioned - yes they have "soft" setups (actually lower spring rates than most of you run in Corollas that weigh 500kg less!) But the V8's also use much larger rims 17x11 and 285-680 R17 slick tyres offering a lot more mechanical grip than your average tyre. They take advantage of weight transfer and body roll to assist these barges around corners. Their suspension geometry is almost irrelavent in this discussion as they have completely custom everything: double wishbone (not Mcpherson strut) front uprights, custom 4-links and Watts-link, in-car adjustable swaybars, floating rear axles with camber and toe adjustment, etc.


Secondly if your car is set up for drift, that's almost opposite to how you'd set up for grip. There are some good pointers in the comments above on areas to look at. Especially about hitting the track to experiment with setup. You can then feel feedback from your adjustments by going around the same course. This way you will get to know the car, what it is doing and predict what it's going to do.
But you'll have to make adjustments to both the car and your driving technique/style. Driving grip and improving laptimes* is about smoothness, not just "chucking the car around". Sometimes doing less is more effective. Consistency - every corner needs to be right from braking, track position, entry-apex-exit points, acceleration.

The Locker will make you understeer into corners get a decent LSD!
Fresh brakes (even OEM size) quality pads and fluid. recommend braided lines.
Get R-compound semi-slick tyres, most street tyres won't cut it. (also note pressures)
Change/Lower spring rates, back off swaybars - more roll and weight transfer under braking and cornering. Make the tyres work to their full potential.
Alignment will do wonders too, numbers above are a good starting point.


(*not the same as just driving fast)

[redsprinter]

thanks all . havent got much to add . but will take all of it on board. and try them out.

[Rice86]

from experience
locked diff does understeer into corner, but in a way can use that to find a more straighter line of the corner, hence shortening the actuall corner of what it is = faster time

use what you got, driving skills!! it will and should be first obtained before a truely modified car...

i think its time to steer a row boat of a car in the touges again, if you can drive an unbalanced car smooth and also fast (i mean to the cars full potential), you can drive anything, and thats where it should begin, and thats where it began for me, and thats why im not going to run coilovers in my ae86 setup untill i can push the shock/spring setup to its limit with grip and drift =p

all hero talk but its the ideal way to become a good fast driver in a shorter amount of time in my point of view

[Juturna]

a car will neither under or over steer on its own..... its just a car, wont do anything without someone driving it.

[slydar]

a car will neither under or over steer on its own..... its just a car, wont do anything without someone driving it.

lol. so all cars are the same?

[fantapants]

i have nothing to add... other than slight offtopic...

throney motorsport represent.... :)

http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=81391&highlight=astra

this guy works or subs for them... not sure which. Impressive ocd, but my gawd its a fucking astra...

sorry for offtopic, just finished reading that thread and see the thorny guide to awesomeness above :)

[Anthony]

holy shit

[fantapants]

yeah imagine what he would be like on something important...?

[sundee]

ohh F... i got about half way through that rubbish before it got binned, y bother! thats anal

[fantapants]

did you get to the bit where he claimed the quality control ticks on the paint UNDER the trim were "gross vandalism of his car"????

[Fusion]

I wonder what James May would say . . .

[15LIDE]

he has to much time on his hands haha

[Andy San]

i think i might go polish and wax my swaybars and brake calipers today...

[fantapants]

but dont worry about heat impervious wax, just choose the one with the best shine :)

[xero]

that dude need to get laid.. like, right now.

[ArbPotatoes]

does he actually drive it?

[Tim.duncan]

ha ha i just want to see what would happen if a bird crapped on it! the dude would probely go postal and start killing people with expensive car cleaning products.

has any one told him its only an astra?

[Rice86]

that guy should build his own sprinter

[Andy San]

if i knew where he lived i'd fly to england right now and take a shit on his bonnet

[fantapants]

i can get you an addy :P

[Tim.duncan]

i went body boarding once at a location that once 2 people are out thats it no room for anyone else, it was a good 10-15min walk from where i parked my car. when i got back from my splash someone had done a dirty huge crap on my bonnet and it was still fresh!! i must of pissed of some locals or somthing

was it you Andy?

[Rice86]

HAHAHAHHA thats just not normal man...