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Drift_Donkey
3rd December 2010, 10:03 PM
Hey Guys, I didn't do this write up! But I did find it very interesting and would be pretty helpful with building a 7age. If I'm not allowed to post this up, feel free to delete it :)



Parts required


PartsCost

4AGE engine(you should have one of these!)

late 7AFE engine with metal head gasket (low mileage import from Japan are now easily available, mine still had original honing marks in the cylinder bores and was in very good condition) (from an Avensis I think)300

Brown injectors from 1985 Celica GT(3SGE engine)50

Adjustable cam pulleys (piper cams)150

Timing belt (Porsche 944 1986) there are two belts listed the one required is the timing belt not the countershaft belt11

212mm clutch AE92 corolla GTI 1992100

3/4inch water hose about 5cmCheap


It is good to have a manual with you for torque settings and detailed information on the individual jobs you will undertake.


Stage one - remove 4age
Work methodically around the engine removing bolts and wires, label anything you don't know or may confuse you if you forget.
Return removed bolts to their holes (this is because some bolts are made to be tightened up harder than others which just snap! I learnt the hard way so you don't have to! More on this later)
Remove radiator for space

It is the lower 17mm nut on the engine mount, which needs to be removed (the hidden one which is awkward to access) this needs to be undone not the top one!

I removed the sandwich plate behind the oil filter because it is easier to access than the oil line (to the oil cooler) and is the same as the one on 7AFE wrap in a plastic bag and check the seal has not fallen off the back.
Cable tie the wiring looms and oil cooler pipes out of the way in the engine bay

Lift out engine using the hooks on the top and an engine crane


Stage 2 - building 7AGE
Again work methodically around the engine finishing each area properly so you don't forget anything
Strip down 4age engine you need everything apart from the block
Leave intake manifold connected to the head, camshafts must be removed to access head bolts, take care to note the loosening pattern and orientation of camshaft bearing caps - see manual
When removing the head remember to loosen the bolts in the correct pattern - see manual
When removing parts especially the engine mounts take care to return the nuts and bolts to their holes so you know which are used for what and what holes on the block are utilised (more on this later)
Use two nuts locked against each other to remove studs then return them finger tight to their original holes.
Strip down 7AFE engine only, the bottom end is required so remove all other mounts, timing gear etc
When removing the head remember to loosen the bolts in the correct pattern and leave them in the head in their original positions so you can make sure the same ones go back in the same holes later on
Take care with the head gasket it should be a nice 2 layer metal one (if it isn't order this from Toyota)
Clean head and block mating surfaces I used some emery paper and a Hoover to Hoover out all the dust created!! Clean the head gasket
Bolt 4AGE head on to 7AFE block using the original 7AFE head bolts, each back to their original positions. use correct tightening pattern first all to 29nm then each through a further 90 degrees then all again through a further 90dgrees, see manual
Return camshafts and tighten camshaft bearing caps in the correct order facing the correct way (they are each labelled on the top with an arrow and number like E1 which stands for exhaust side first bearing cap (the closest to the cam pulley) E2, E3, I1, I2, I for inlet side etc)
You may need to clean them to see the markings add some engine oil to all the bearing surfaces before tightening the bearing caps. Return cam covers, bearing caps and cam covers to 13nm
Transfer the water pump and all its pipe work it should all come off 4AGE as one piece with three 12mm (15nm) bolts on the front of the block, use the seal from the 7AFE pump as it is probably a bit newer, clean the mating faces. The pipe support bracket on the side of the engine block cannot be used I just left it as it seemed secure enough you could make a simple bracket to hold it.
The water pump to head pipe needs to be extended, just cut it in half put the 3/4inch hose over, you only need about 5cm and clamp with two jubilee clips.

http://files.aeu86.org/forum/files/thumbs/t_dsc01455.jpg
http://files.aeu86.org/forum/files/thumbs/t_dsc01457.jpg

Fit adjustable timing pulleys, firstly mark them against the original pullys for the original timing marks. make marks on the new pulleys by drilling a shallow 3mm hole where the timing mark should be (the same place and fashion as on the original 4AGE ones (the small indent on the rim) check the right one is on the right side as they are different see manual for orientation
Fit the lower timing belt pulley from the 4AGE engine to the crankshaft
Line all the timing marks up then fit Porsche 944 timing belt, re adjust the tensioner to take up the slack
The lower timing belt cover from 4AGE needs to be modified to fit, look at it from the back there will be a second outer circle around the hole for the crankshaft just file it out to this outer hole and it will fit nicely
You will notice the camshaft pulley timing marks do no line up correctly when the lower pulley mark is lined up. Use the adjustment on the cam pulleys to retard each camshaft by approximately 3-4 degrees to so it all lines up nicely

http://forum.aeu86.org/forum/files/thumbs/t_dsc01451.jpg
The middle timing belt cover will no longer fit

On to the back of the engine
Remove 4AGE flywheel and bell housing backing plate, clean the backing plate and transfer it to the 7A block (9nm)
Bolt on the 7AFE flywheel using the correct bolt pattern (74nm)
Bolt on your new 212mm clutch (a nice little upgrade) (19nm)

On to the left hand side
Check which holes are used by looking at the 4AGE block:
Run through these with a thread tap!!! If you don't what will happen tome will happen to you! I used a different bolt, which just sheared off in my block because it was not intended for that much torque and the thread was too stiff!! Long!
Transfer all the studs and fit the engine mount and alternator bracket, the lower gearbox mounts can no longer be used as they don't line up chuck them away.
The intake manifold support needs to be extended I did this by making a simple extension bracket at the top

http://files.aeu86.org/forum/files/thumbs/t_dsc01454.jpg
You might as well fit alternator and belt

The right-hand side
Check which holes are used by looking at the 4AGE block:
Run through these with a thread tap!!! If you don't what will happen to me will happen to you! I used a different bolt, which just sheared off in my block because it was not intended for that much torque and the thread was too stiff!! Long!
Transfer all the studs and fit the engine mount, the lower gearbox mounts can no longer be used as they don't line up chuck them away. Fit the block earth lead and starter motor loom clip which should have come off with the engine mount from 4AGE
Remove the oil filter sandwich plate
You might as well fit the starter motor


Top
Change injectors take care not to damage the fragile seals, in fact you should replace upper and lower seals as they are probably very worn out! When I replaced my injector lower seals I thought the guy gave me the wrong part it looked so different to the deformed old thing I took out!
A tab must be cut off the Celica injectors try one on a injector plug and you will see which tab needs cutting use a sharp knife then the plug will fit like normal

Stage 3 - return engine
Drop it back in you will have to wiggle it around to get it on the lay shaft from the gearbox jack the gearbox up this helps
Refit all bolt and wires work methodically around the engine and make sure everything is done before moving to the next area
Fit the oil cooler sandwich plate which you wrapped in plastic and a new oil filter
Check the oil line up the distributor (see manual)
Fire it up! Set the ignition timing I found the original marks on the lower timing cover not to line up it shows about 3 degrees too much advance so take this into account when you set the timing (again i learnt the hard way experiencing detonation after 7000RPM !)

http://files.aeu86.org/forum/files/thumbs/t_dsc01452.jpg
Experience a 4age with a killer torque band, the rear tyres have no chance!!! I was a very happy bunny indeed http://www.aeu86.org/images/smiles/thumbsup.gif

ps it doesnt like being reved over 7k and power drops off at about 6700 so this is where i have set my shift light, it pulls hard untill then.
If anyone has any questions or queries post them and I will try and edit this post to incorporate the answers!
after 300+ miles now the engine hasnt blown up so im pretty chuffed, and after much testing against a close friend last night i can safley say the engine has lost no pace despite the reduced redline and changing gear early, (this was a fear of mine because there is normally always a trade off) the new torque band just pulls it through the gears, i never thought id say this but torque really is very exciting too on the street adding a whole new dimension to the corolla!


calculations for compression ratio:
compression ratio = swept volume + clearance volume / clearance volume
clearance volume = head gasket thickness + piston to block deck clearance + combution chamber volume + dish in piston
swept volume = cross sectional area of bore x stroke - dish in piston

values for 7AGE
head gasket thickness 0.266mm (when compressed) (based on when a 0.8 3 layer TRD metal headgasket is compressed it becomes 0.4mm (taken from club4ag.com) so 2/3 of this value is taken (because this was a two layer metal head gasket)
piston to clyinder deck clearance on 7AFE block 0.3mm (taken from club4ag.com)
combustion chamber volume for 4AGE head 39cc (taken from club4ag.com)
dish in piston 73mm diameter with 3mm depth (aproximate value i would apreciate a more acurate measurment)
bore and stroke = 81 and 85.5mm
so clearance volume = (values changed to cm for continuity)
= head gasket thickness + piston to block deck clearance + combution chamber volume + dish in piston
= [ pi 8.1 ^2 / 4 x 0.0266 ] + [ pi 8.1 ^2 / 4 x 0.03 ] + [ 39 ] +[ pi 7.3 ^2 / 4 x 0.3 ]
= 1.3707 + 1.5459 + 39 + 12.5562
= 54.4728

swept volume = cross sectional area of bore x stroke - dish in piston
= pi 8.1 ^2 /4 x 8.55 - 12.5562
= 428.025

so

compression ratio = swept volume + clearance volume / clearance volume
= 428.025 + 54.4728 / 54.4728
= 8.86

so as my head has been skimmed (but i dont know to what thickness)
i would guess the compression ratio to be around 9:1

ps values used were mainly found on club 4age and cannot be varified i have tried to be acurate please point out any mistakes you find in my working!

conclusion extra head skimming or late small port pistons would improve the compression ratio and power output

70XIN
4th December 2010, 12:52 AM
That's definitely a good article, but from first-hand experience i can add a few things

-Flywheel: You can also use a 4AC flywheel (200mm clutches) or better yet, the 7AFE flywheel (can use 200 OR 212mm clutches)
-Injectors: Do not buy the injectors listed in this article. In Robo86's case, we put the car on the dyno, and standard bigport 4AGE injectors flowed more than enough fuel on a standard 4AGE computer etc. Infact it was still running a bit on the rich side.
-Timing belt: We ended up using a "t107" belt, 924 porsche

davidgarratt
4th December 2010, 01:30 AM
So does the 4ac flywheel fit on any 7afe crank ie a ae93 ?

mild seven
4th December 2010, 01:35 AM
yes it does. both are 6 bolt.

although i would use a 212mm flywheel...

davidgarratt
4th December 2010, 01:49 AM
Thats cool I didn't really look when I did my 4ac - 4age swap if its as easy as it says might give it a go cos iv got most of it sitting there, but one more question if I may can I use 20mm hole 4age pistons?

70XIN
4th December 2010, 01:51 AM
Yep, 7A pistons/rods are 20mm.

davidgarratt
4th December 2010, 02:09 AM
Looks like I might build a 7age to replace my tired 4age thanks for the helpful info :)

pen15
7th December 2010, 07:15 AM
from what my conversion has taught me in this article it dosnt mention the spigot bearing witch could spell trouble if you forget it.
the part number i gave repco is 6001-rs they normally stock them but here is a helpful link full of info on them http://s-86.com/s-spigot.html


70XIN what was the cost of the Porsche timing belt do you remember?

Nikkojoe
7th December 2010, 02:41 PM
With regards to the hose clamped over the bypass pipe, couldn't you just use a rwd 4ac one? They are longer than the rwd 4age (like 5-10mm from memory).

Delazy
8th December 2010, 12:18 AM
7a bypass pipe should be 70mm long...

the spacer required on the top outlet for the bypass pipe to line up with the waterpump should be 10mm...

davidgarratt
8th December 2010, 01:44 PM
I got a 4ac bypass pipe from Toyota a few days ago I will check the length tonight. Also I thought the 7afe were all like the fwd 4axx with a remote thermostat housing and it wouldn't have a metal pipe ( could be. Wrong ) I will have a look at that when I get home too:)

H8CHIR6KU
8th December 2010, 01:57 PM
yeah 7afe is a fwd water pump and doesnt have bypass. but if oyu read the build again you will see that they said to use the rwd water pump. you need to use the rwd pump setup becuase you arent using the fwd head.

remember the fwd water pump goes directly to the head above where the pump is.

Delazy
8th December 2010, 03:51 PM
I
yeah 7afe is a fwd water pump and doesnt have bypass. but if oyu read the build again you will see that they said to use the rwd water pump. you need to use the rwd pump setup becuase you arent using the fwd head.

remember the fwd water pump goes directly to the head above where the pump is.

Exactly that...i should stop assuming ppl use the 16v rwd water pump setup as i did...

So to rephase, 16v waterpump with 7a block the bypass pipe is 70mm with an outlet spacer 10mm thick..

Easier ways to do it, but mine achieves a perfect 100% oem look..

pen15
11th December 2010, 12:23 PM
here is a pic of mine dummy fitted to check what needed to be done

parts i am using
-rwd water pump setup
-16v head with rwd top outlet

its close but not close enough
http://img253.imageshack.us/img253/2527/img0209bk.jpg

its not the best pi but you get the idea it is very close but just wont work imo lol

H8CHIR6KU
11th December 2010, 02:42 PM
is that a 4ac pipe or a 4ag pipe?

it also looks like the outlets dont line up even if it was long enough. or is the pipe not sitting straight?

davidgarratt
11th December 2010, 03:49 PM
Got around to checking the 4ac bypass pipe and it is 68mm tip to tip.

Delazy
11th December 2010, 05:55 PM
is that a 4ac pipe or a 4ag pipe?

it also looks like the outlets dont line up even if it was long enough. or is the pipe not sitting straight?

it shouldn't...

as already said, the outlet needs to be spaced out 10mm for the bypass pipe to line up correctly...

judging by the measurements of the 4ac bypass pipe by davidgarratt it should be fine as the one i had made up was 70mm...

i do have a outlet spacer to suit 16v here with gaskets...would gladly sell it...

havent got any pics of my setup 20v 7a with rwd water pump set up rschita outlet, prolly wont have the time to do so til after new years now...

marvis
1st February 2011, 10:27 AM
So what bypass pipe?

I want like 11.5 compression with slightly oversize pistons.

What would people recommend?

Seems to be sweet to run on stock ecu?

n2866
1st February 2011, 12:38 PM
Why such high compression? There's no need unless running big cams to utilize the comp. Stock ecu should run a fairly stock 7age not one with some work but.

Delazy
1st February 2011, 01:31 PM
compression isnt all that high considering ae111 20v runs 11.0:1 from factory ;)

70XIN
1st February 2011, 02:25 PM
Yeah that compression would be fine. I seem to remember Robo's is up around that number, he just had to run 7 degrees of base timing instead of 10 .. unless you plan on cams.. which would be awesome.

marvis
2nd February 2011, 05:13 PM
Why such high compression? There's no need unless running big cams to utilize the comp. Stock ecu should run a fairly stock 7age not one with some work but.

Cams later.


With the 7age you really wanna beef up the bottom end because of the extra stroke they dont wanna rev out as far as the 4age. For an alright budget spool rods are good for 500 bucks can't complain and they shod hold up easy at say like 8100rpm all day. Can't remember how much mat paid for the pistons but it was Probs about 700 you can go cheap pistons but like I said you'd want to build up the bottom end strong. And again with the choice of cr depends on the ecu you want and what the is used for like track or daily.

If staying stock ecu you wouldnt want to put too big cams because your also asking the ecu to compensate for the extra 200cc your putting through the motor.

Depends on budget.
Motec would be smick. But something like a haltec would be good.
Want stock ecu. And like 27x cams

Oversize Toyota pistons fine?


i run an adaptronic e420c but if you want to build a 7a do a robo and build it pretty much stock with better rods of course

pm me marvis i may have something good for you soon :)

the issue you will have with cams is that its not the stock rev range that is affected but the limiter on a stock management the ecu will throw as much fuel as it can into the motor on the limiter fouling the plugs this is what happened to me when i ran stock ecu with my current cams a long time ago driving was fine but when it hit the limiter the plugs got fouled instantly



you are incorrect about the spool rods not being able to handle the rpm as they can, what would give up first its the crank and vibration combined with a ross harmonic balancer you can easily see 9000rpm with spool rods the vibration in the 7a is what makes the engine weak the rods are fine for strength they are balanced very well even better than stock blacktop rods from factory
the spool rods are also shot peened making them less likely to cracking the only thing that would let go is the rod bolts and arp2000 are quiet strong if i want to rev mine more ill get stronger rod bolts we all now a blacktop can rev to 9000 stock and if you want a comparison from blacktop rods to spool 7a there is no comparison the spool rods are far stronger and better balanced i know i have balanced blacktop rods and weighed up spool (spool didnt need balancing)

in the end it comes down to engine balanced you crank, pistons and rods all need to be perfect if not then you wont be able to rev it out

Worth balancing crank and running lighter harmonic balancer? Like about would like to go 27x cams later. stock ecu..

n2866
2nd February 2011, 05:19 PM
im not 100% but im pretty sure youd just foul plugs and it would run like balls.

pen15
2nd February 2011, 05:50 PM
only if the limiter gets sat on alot as in drifting but as for racing i think it would be fine and as for the compression i think the more comp the better allows for upgrading the head later and the more comp you have the more efficient the engine will run there is power to be made just in upping the comp lok at smallport compared to bigport 86kw at fly to 100kw at fly cams are the same duration only major difference is the comp, intake ports and ecu

Robo86
2nd February 2011, 06:00 PM
you wont sit on the limiter with a 7a, at least a basic one (stock ecu/cams). there isnt much up top! goes hard through the mid-top though

marvis
3rd February 2011, 07:35 PM
Cam's would give it more power up top, so I would be up there more I think.

People post up their setups!

Delazy
3rd February 2011, 10:04 PM
block - 7afe
crank - 7age nitrated
crank timing gear/sprocket - bazda modified 16v/ae101 20v
harmonic balancer - ross tuffbond race series (yet to be made, eta july)
flywheel - toda 4.4kg
bearings - acl race series
conrods - belfab racing 7afe
pistons - custom wiseco (unknown specs, special order by engine builder)
oil pump - ae101 20v + ae101 20v tensioner
sump - ae101 sump/ae101 windage tray/tecarts spacer plate + accusump
oil cooler - greddy thermostatic
headgasket - stock thickness cometic
head - ae111 20v (smoothed ports)
valves - supertech 1mm oversized
vale springs - supertech heavy duty + ti retainers
cams - kelford 288/10mm
cam gears - toda
timing belt - toda 16v
intake - ae111 itbs/30mm sptech stacks/nobybooth airbox
extractors - powercraft 4-1 n2
cooling system - rschita conversion with genuine 16v waterpump
radiator - koyo
ecu - haltech ps1000
miscellaneous - ARP head/mains/flywheel bolts

final CR - estimated somewhere between 11.5:1 and 12:1 from memory....been awhile since we worked it out....
power/torque - unknown

first attempt starting - ETA 12-18 months lol

abit of a puzzle/collection of bits and pieces...i honestly dont know what to expect from it...could be 100kw could be 120-130rwkw...quite excited to see how seamus goes with his motor...

pen15
4th February 2011, 06:55 AM
7a block .5mm oversize
7a crank stock size
spool con rods
wiseco pistons comp ratio is 12.37-1
7a stock brand new Toyota genuine oil pump
7a sump
4age 16v stock head gasket Toyota genuine
4age 16v bigport head ported to the shit
264 hks cam shafts at 8.1mm lift on intake and 8.35mm lift on exhaust
toda single valve springs
fidanza adjustable cam gears
Porsche timing belt
t3 quad throttlebody adapters
ae101 silvertop individual throttle body's
stock 2nd hand head bolts
stock 2nd hand main cap bolts
arp 2000 rod bolts (comes stock with spool)
and just Toyota genuine seal throughout

that's my setup there is nothing to over the top for the moment but my new head will flow a few more horses with all the wright mods a 7a will make power up high im thinking of also building a 7a 1zz crank for a nice 2L setup

marvis
4th February 2011, 11:12 AM
^ what sorta power is that?

Robo86
4th February 2011, 11:27 AM
everyone knows mine but meh


Final engine spec.
7AGE

-7AFE Bottom end - Honed, 0.5mm Oversize bores.
-Standard crank (midsized)
-Kings Main bearings
-Standard Conrods (Resized + new bolts)
-ACL Con-rod bearings
-Hypatech Smallport 4AGE Pistons 0.5mm Oversized. (new)
-Hastings Piston Rings
-New standard thickness 4AGE toyota head gasket
-Standard Bigport 4AGE Head, with some mild porting.
-New Headbolts
-4AC Flywheel
-Apexi Intake
-TRD copy extractors + 2.25 exhaust.
-Compression ratio: 11.4:1

105hp or something, chops my old BP

n2866
4th February 2011, 12:55 PM
I pretty sure you won't get much more hp but the torque is great. But I think mat(pen15) car made close to 90kw on the 4age bottom end. And also when doing the said 1zz crank it tips it over a 2l.

Robo86
4th February 2011, 01:51 PM
yer mine pulls so much harder than 4age and cost me so little

Sprinter86
4th February 2011, 04:09 PM
im not sure mine belongs in this thread lol...:P


-7AFE Block
-7AFE rods
-7AFE pistons
-7AFE oil pump
-7AFE Sump
-4AC Head
-Regrind Cam (270)
-4AGEOil Cooler
-WEBER 32/36

Makes 60kw atw with more torque than any of my 4age's. would easy make more power with 4ac style pistons and more comp. :)

Delazy
4th February 2011, 05:19 PM
im not sure mine belongs in this thread lol...:P


-7AFE Block
-7AFE rods
-7AFE pistons
-7AFE oil pump
-7AFE Sump
-4AC Head
-Regrind Cam (270)
-4AGEOil Cooler
-WEBER 32/36

Makes 60kw atw with more torque than any of my 4age's. would easy make more power with 4ac style pistons and more comp. :)

Thats awesome!!! I rate it!!! Ive always thought if my 3tc shits itself in my ksev once i get around to it, id throw a 7ac together and see how that went lol

Sprinter86
4th February 2011, 05:35 PM
if you do end up doing it, remember that the key part to the 7ac is a Mitsubishi colt timing belt ;)

I have a question aswell, im just gathering parts for 7agte setup, using a blacktop head, i already have a brand new 7A oil pump, will this be sufficient compared to say, a blacktop oil pump?
what differences are there, just volume?

any help would be great :)

pen15
4th February 2011, 05:37 PM
the thread is building a 7age but you get an A+ for effort i cant imagine why you would build a 7ac unless you had a magneto coil and mechanical injection but still a very cool engine what timing belt/chain did you use and things

n2866
4th February 2011, 06:20 PM
if you do end up doing it, remember that the key part to the 7ac is a Mitsubishi colt timing belt ;)
darrren

70XIN
4th February 2011, 09:37 PM
Okay mine is kinda basic, not quite as crazy as delazy's monster. Should be fun though!

block - 7afe stock
crank - 7afe stock
crank timing gear/sprocket - bazda modified (offset keyway)
flywheel - J-Works 4kg chromoly flywheel
bearings - kings
conrods - J-Works H-Beam
pistons - ae111 4age stock
oil pump - 4age 16V + 4age 16V tensioner
headgasket - stock ae111
head - ae111 20v slightly ported
cams - TODA-R 264, 9mm
cam gears - ae111 4age stock
timing belt - 4age 16v stock
intake - ae111 itbs/70mm J-Wworks stacks
extractors - RSR, soon to have J-Works 'Octopus' headers
cooling system - Garage Annex
ecu - ae111 4age stock, with Garage Annex modifications (unknown. could just be speed de-limiter)
fueling- ae111 4age stock, TOM's or stock ae111 4age FPR depending on what the wideband says
miscellaneous - ARP head studs and ARP bolts

I hope to make 120-130rwhp. My <2" exhaust from headers to cat will be quite restrictive though.

pen15
5th February 2011, 01:07 PM
on my boss's 20v stroker 7a he uses a stock 20v timing gear on the crank and then uses a Peugeot timing belt how come you guys dont do the same?

fantapants
5th February 2011, 01:50 PM
does he use cam gears? if he is using adjustable cam gears and disabling vvt then he can dial the timing differences out with those, but if he is using the vvt timing pulley, then the simplest way to reset the timing to the correct place is to recut the timing keyway...

n2866
5th February 2011, 04:56 PM
bang on pat

Delazy
6th February 2011, 10:22 AM
Okay mine is kinda basic, not quite as crazy as delazy's monster. Should be fun though!


Mine is far from a monster..lol..

pen15
7th February 2011, 06:51 AM
boss doesn't have vvt its been removed but has toda adjustable cam gears

Delazy
7th February 2011, 10:19 AM
boss doesn't have vvt its been removed but has toda adjustable cam gears

That explains it then, one would assume its been simply reset via the cam gears...

Was the initial method i took, but seeing as the oil pump is coming off to replace the ae111 item with a ae101 pump i thought i might aswell change to the modified timing gear also...

fantapants
10th February 2011, 09:52 AM
yeah if you dont use vvt then you dont need a recut keyway, simply play with adjustable cam wheels.

marvis
12th February 2011, 03:10 PM
Worth paying an extra ~$200 for ARP head bolts? Or just get stock toyota? Will definitely use them for flywheel though..

70XIN
12th February 2011, 04:36 PM
New toyota (or even non-genuine) head-bolts will be fine.

pen15
13th February 2011, 10:06 AM
i just re used my old second hand head bolts there is no need for anything stronger

Adsie
15th February 2011, 10:32 AM
Why replace the flywheel bolts?

xero
15th February 2011, 12:12 PM
because once they are tightened and loosened they lose some integrity and may sheer.

Adsie
16th February 2011, 07:07 PM
Thought I would ask this here. So when I put the 7AGE in the sprinter if it does raise the head up 10mm there will be a problem fitting the exhaust. How have other people got around this? Was thinking of using the Cusco engine mounts that apparently lower the motor 10mm, does anyone know where to buy these?

n2866
16th February 2011, 07:46 PM
that will work but you need to watch the sump too. i guess depends on how tight you headers were to the body

Delazy
16th February 2011, 09:55 PM
Thought I would ask this here. So when I put the 7AGE in the sprinter if it does raise the head up 10mm there will be a problem fitting the exhaust. How have other people got around this? Was thinking of using the Cusco engine mounts that apparently lower the motor 10mm, does anyone know where to buy these?

should get it low enough...hard to say depending on the design of the headers i guess...

i went to the extreme of both lower rubbers and mounts to slam the motor in the engine bay...then ran into the problem of the sump apparently fouling...which then turned into a long winded process of converting to an ae101 sump...argggggg...

all my research into the matter was theory and conversation with others namely in the US/NZ whom had similar problems...so i havent seen with my eyes the problems...will be taking detailed pics when i get to the stage of installation however...

marvis
17th February 2011, 01:02 PM
was thinking of using the cusco engine mounts that apparently lower the motor 10mm, does anyone know where to buy these?
ajps :)

Robo86
17th February 2011, 01:15 PM
yer just mod the exhaust a little, its not TOO bad. (i used stock mounts)

Adsie
17th February 2011, 01:33 PM
Thanks. PMed AJPS about mounts pending price might just try mod the exhaust, haven't put it in yet so hopefully it won't be too bad.

R&D Mechanical
17th February 2011, 05:43 PM
Anyone got photos of the modded key ways and pullys?

SHADOW KNIGHT
17th February 2011, 06:14 PM
Or just beat the fire wall a little thats how mine came from japan.
I thought it was more than 10 mm?????

70XIN
17th February 2011, 06:58 PM
There's no need to beat the firewall at all. And yeah, it's definitely just 10mm taller.

Adsie
17th February 2011, 07:15 PM
Anyone got photos of the modded key ways and pullys?

Can get photos of the modified sprocket but all it is is just another keyway slot cut to locate it at a different position on the crank


Or just beat the fire wall a little thats how mine came from japan.
I thought it was more than 10 mm?????

Its not the firewall that will be a problem on mine, its underneath

SHADOW KNIGHT
17th February 2011, 09:01 PM
Yeah it is kind of underneath, i would say if i took my carpet out you could see where it has been tapped but my extractors have also been cut and rewelded at the collector and miss by a mile now.
And 7oxin must of got sum wronf info then

R&D Mechanical
17th February 2011, 09:14 PM
I didnt know how easy this was, i think il do it to the T18, more pictures people!

70XIN
18th February 2011, 05:22 AM
Yeah it is kind of underneath, i would say if i took my carpet out you could see where it has been tapped but my extractors have also been cut and rewelded at the collector and miss by a mile now.
And 7oxin must of got sum wronf info then

No i don't, you must just have long headers (and the work was done by dodgy japs).

With TRD copy headers there's no need to touch the firewall, not in a million years.

SHADOW KNIGHT
18th February 2011, 04:37 PM
Bahaha sorry man i ment to say I got the wrong info about being more then 10mm.
And in my case this is how, who ever ( dodgy jap ) went about it and have no idea of what brand my headers are.

pen15
19th February 2011, 01:41 PM
I didnt know how easy this was, i think il do it to the T18, more pictures people!

what do you need pics of i can take whatever you need i can jack up my shitbox and get heaps of pics just need to know what of

H8CHIR6KU
21st February 2011, 02:07 PM
i have a few questions for you guys

1. why do you need adjustable cam gears again?
2. i see on some of your setups that some of you change the oil pumps over. is there something wrong with the 7a oil pump? doesnt flow enough or easy to break under revs?

70XIN
21st February 2011, 05:12 PM
To answer both of your questions.

1. The 7A block is 10mm taller. This extra height (when used with a longer timing belt, which is required) puts the cam timing out a good few degrees - idle quality and power suffers massively if this isn't sorted. One thing i might also add - if you have no intention of dropping in cams now or in the future, i would suggest buying an offset lower timing pulley (off BAZDA, he's on plenty of forums such as toymods etc), as this is SO much easier than using dial indicators to work out the correct 110/110 timing for stock cams.. You just install it like any other lower timing gear, and you're ready to roll. If you are planning on aftermarket cams, then just buy cam gears .. your dyno operator will work out a setting that works best for your combination.

2. All new 4A/7A pumps are basically internally identical, the only real difference is the tensioner position. This also probably accounts for why some people have used porsche 944 timing belts on their setup, yet that timing belt was just one tooth short for robo86's motor. You can use any oil pump you want (16V/GZE/20V/7A), just don't EXPECT that a certain timing belt length will fit perfectly - you may need to take two trips to your local repco/supercheap/other for timing belts.

:)

Robo86
21st February 2011, 05:29 PM
You can use any oil pump you want (16V/GZE/20V/7A), just don't EXPECT that a certain timing belt length will fit perfectly - you may need to take two trips to your local repco/supercheap/other for timing belts.


this!!

fantapants
21st February 2011, 06:21 PM
on that though , re oil pumps, i have heard the blacktop pump is the least prefered due to the hydraulic tensioner?

70XIN
21st February 2011, 06:48 PM
Yep. Buying a new hydraulic tensioner and its' unique pulley aren't cheap. I think it worked out that you end up saving $200+ by using anything other than a BT pump.

bones
21st February 2011, 06:54 PM
where did everyone get there oversized pistons from?

pen15
21st February 2011, 08:02 PM
oversized pistons? what are you talking about? you can just use 4age pistons BT ST 16v it doesn't matter i used over sized pistons because my bores where fucked and it needed a bore and hone but if your asking where to get them any car related place can order them in i work for an engine reco company so i get them cheap

and yes BT 20v oil pumps suck the hydro's shit themselves its better to run a silvertop or a 7a im pretty sure a 7a pump can pump more fluid than a 4a pump as the gears are thicker i can confirm this at a later date i have spare of both laying around so ill mic them up see if there is any difference

Delazy
21st February 2011, 08:38 PM
on that though , re oil pumps, i have heard the blacktop pump is the least prefered due to the hydraulic tensioner?

according to bazda the ae111 setup wont put enough tension on a 16v timing belt also...hence me changing mine to ae101 before i find out the hard way

bones
21st February 2011, 08:44 PM
oversized pistons? what are you talking about? you can just use 4age pistons BT ST 16v it doesn't matter i used over sized pistons because my bores where fucked and it needed a bore and hone but if your asking where to get them any car related place can order them in i work for an engine reco company so i get them cheap

i see its just that i have seen a few people run 0.5mm bigger pistons, i clearly no nothing about building an engine so i just wanna do it right the first time. you wouldn't be able to pm me a price would you?

H8CHIR6KU
22nd February 2011, 01:48 AM
killer reply 7oxin.

figured as much with the longer block but in my head i couldnt see it making a difference if the cams are set at tdc. but yeah i know what your saying

marvis
22nd February 2011, 10:13 AM
i would suggest buying an offset lower timing pulley (off BAZDA, he's on plenty of forums such as toymods etc),

How much does he charge for one?

Adsie
22nd February 2011, 10:29 AM
Got mine for about $80. That was for a 20V but.

70XIN
22nd February 2011, 10:54 AM
I think 80 if you send him a pulley to erode, and about double that if he supplies a new one.

Adsie
22nd February 2011, 10:58 AM
I just checked my old PMs and it was $87NZD and he supplied the sprocket. This was ordered before New Years.

marvis
22nd February 2011, 11:40 AM
Awesome. Saves me from having to tune it when I have stock cams, and then can do adjustable cam gears with cams possibly at a later date

Delazy
22nd February 2011, 11:44 AM
I just checked my old PMs and it was $87NZD and he supplied the sprocket. This was ordered before New Years.

Its $80 + the cost of a sprocket...cant remeber the cost of the sprocket atm however...waiting on mime atm

JinxD
22nd February 2011, 12:11 PM
Bazda is in the process of doing one for me at the moment and a brand new one recut is costing me $156NZD to my door which is about $120AUD, seems like a very nice and knowledgeable guy, 7oxin put me onto him.

Adsie
22nd February 2011, 01:03 PM
I must have got a good deal then.

H8CHIR6KU
3rd April 2011, 01:07 PM
i have a few more questions.

1. i have read a few builds and some people use 4age headbolts and some use 7afe headbolts. these are different with the 7afe having different length headbolts. so what is the consensus on which headbolts to use. i wouldve thought you would use the headbolts to match the head.
2. why do so many people swap out the 7afe pistons for ae92 pistons? is it just to bump up the compression ratio? or is it more to do with the dome on the piston etc?
3. i have searched fro compression ratios with different 7age setups. but it seems everyone has different figures. what sort of compression ratio would a 7afe piston with a 7afe gasket + bigport head come out too?

70XIN
3rd April 2011, 01:21 PM
1. Yeah to match the head.
2. Yep, compression more than anything. With 7AFE pistons you have really really low compression (something in the 8:1 area) - only suitable for turbo - but because the pistons are pretty weak too they aren't suitable for that either haha.
3. 8.X:1, maybe in the low 9's if you're lucky. If you get some smallport pistons, you'll be up in the 11.5:1-12:1 area.

H8CHIR6KU
3rd April 2011, 01:31 PM
cheers man. looks like i need to put some pistons on the shopping list aswell then

actually just having a look at some acl pistons.
http://www.aclperformance.com.au/Toyota4AGET4AGZEForgedPistons.htm
i notice though that they use the same part number for ge and gze pistons. anyone know what is up with that?

what pistons did you use for robos car 7oxin?

70XIN
3rd April 2011, 04:00 PM
Because you're looking at low-comp ACL pistons ;) they are 'to suit' any 20mm pin 16V motor that's going to be turbo/supercharged.

As far as i know they did/do make high-comp pistons, but i've never really looked into it or cared haha.

We used 'hypatec' 4age smallport pistons in robos motor, and i must say they were excellent quality for the money (at least as good as factory toyota imo).

R&D Mechanical
17th May 2011, 04:51 PM
Seamus, what do you recommend for a strong 7agte ? I am thinking about it and have a 7a engine on my way :D

70XIN
17th May 2011, 06:53 PM
cheap rods (mine, belfab, spool, etc), GZE 8.9:1 pistons, and a good balance - BAZDA and other NZ folks all recommend the same type of setup :)

then ARP head studs and a stock genuine toyota HG, or TRD 0.5/0.8 if you want more compression. the head itself is all up to you ;)

the great thing is, you don't have to spend crazy $$ to make an epic bottom end, it is a winner :D

tauhu86
17th May 2011, 09:40 PM
If i am not mistaken the stock 7AFE gasket is 0.6mm and it's metal.
can anyone confirm this?
if it is so, using 8.9:1 pistons from a gze + 4AG head should result in some 9.2 - 9.5:1 CR?

pen15
16th July 2011, 06:54 PM
if this helps people i have pics of sump clearances and other 7a related things

sump to sway bar
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg825/scaled.php?server=825&filename=dsc01435pm.jpg&res=medium

sump to crossmember
http://desmond.imageshack.us/Himg837/scaled.php?server=837&filename=dsc01434xg.jpg&res=medium

hope this helps anyone with knowing where the sump sits on a 7age setup

rthy
16th July 2011, 08:09 PM
re. the headgasket, the 7afe gasket is .6mm and metal but the hole passage for the oil/water are smaller/different design.
can enlarge the passages but might/will damage or warp the gasket.

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRPsMkdzrlnMxktiMSO5lK_a1Q55l5bK c2ANTXQTGPWme3IW0rg&t=1
(old 7afe vs new 4age headgasket)

jimmy19650
21st November 2011, 11:03 PM
From what I have read, depending on head gasket used

Small port pistons = roughly 11.5:1 CR
standard 7a pistons will result in less than 9:1 CR
Late ZE pistons just over 9.5:1 CR

Has anyone used the 4agelc pistons which are 9.4:1 CR normally in a 4ag motor. I would image they would result in about a 10.5:1 CR

fantapants
26th November 2011, 04:26 PM
dont forget the compression ratio also depends on if the builder chooses to deck the block down to the piston or not...

jimmy19650
26th November 2011, 06:26 PM
Yes I understand that, but with all things being equal, it would be interesting to see what compression ratio that piston gave compared to all the rest.

Matt
27th November 2011, 08:55 AM
From what I have read, depending on head gasket used

Small port pistons = roughly 11.5:1 CR
standard 7a pistons will result in less than 9:1 CR
Late ZE pistons just over 9.5:1 CR

Has anyone used the 4agelc pistons which are 9.4:1 CR normally in a 4ag motor. I would image they would result in about a 10.5:1 CR

Wondering if anyone has used blacktop 20v pistons and a blacktop 20v head in a 7age?

70XIN
27th November 2011, 12:41 PM
my setup does :)

dehney
13th March 2012, 04:33 PM
my setup does :)

what power is your 20v 7ag making ?

what rods are people using so you can make the 7ag rev a BIT higher ?

s13 james
13th March 2012, 04:48 PM
i will be using spool rods

Delazy
13th March 2012, 04:58 PM
what power is your 20v 7ag making ?

what rods are people using so you can make the 7ag rev a BIT higher ?

most people are using spool or 7oxins rods

although robbo did use standard 7afe with ARP bolts...

dehney
13th March 2012, 05:07 PM
ok sweet cheers fellas

70XIN
13th March 2012, 05:09 PM
I made 160rwhp :)

I use my own rods - i only have a couple of sets left ;)

If you're sticking to a low rev-limit like robo did (7200rpm), then stock 7A rods are fine. That said, by the time he bought new rod bolts and resized the rods he was halfway to the cost of forged rods. All budget dependant i guess :)

Adsie
13th March 2012, 06:48 PM
I used stock rods in mine with a 7500rpm limit goes fine but isn't daily driven. I also brought new rod bolts, didn't resize the rods.

s13 james
13th March 2012, 07:30 PM
is it true you use a ke70 throttle cable and a 4 ac fly wheel?or can i use the flywheel from my bigport currently in car?car is a 86

dying3k
13th March 2012, 07:35 PM
nah you cant use 4a flywheel as they are 8 bolt where 7a is 6 bolt

s13 james
13th March 2012, 07:40 PM
so ide need the 4afe flywheel?or is there something else everyone uses

Delazy
13th March 2012, 08:43 PM
is it true you use a ke70 throttle cable and a 4 ac fly wheel?or can i use the flywheel from my bigport currently in car?car is a 86


nah you cant use 4a flywheel as they are 8 bolt where 7a is 6 bolt


so ide need the 4afe flywheel?or is there something else everyone uses

4ac is actually a 6 bolt flywheel...

s13 james
13th March 2012, 08:58 PM
so i should grab a 4 ac flywheel,or is there a beter option to go with?can the 4 ac be machined?

Seventy
13th March 2012, 11:00 PM
While this thread is seeing some action. Can I used a bigport 4age clutch on the 7afe flywheel? My 4age clutch is almost new and dont want it to goto waste

70XIN
14th March 2012, 12:12 AM
Depends on your clutch size.

If you were running a smallport flywheel/clutch (212mm), then it will bolt straight up to a 7AFE flywheel.

If you were running a bigport AE82/AE86 flywheel/clutch (200mm), then you need a 4AC flywheel.

Seventy
14th March 2012, 12:44 AM
Actually, have a feeling i have both a 7afe and 4ac flywheel so should be good.
Also whats the easiest way to get in touch with this bazda bloke for the modified gear?

Grant #2
14th March 2012, 12:53 PM
Seamus, thanks for throwing us tips!

I bought my gear from Barry (Bazda) as well after 7oxin pointed me in his direction.

Barry has a website, if you guys can't find it send me a PM and I'll give you his email address. Please google a bit first though.

s13 james
14th March 2012, 06:49 PM
sweet thanks

Seventy
14th March 2012, 09:05 PM
found his trademe profile, so ill just contact him through that when i need to

EDIT: found his site, heres a link for the modified gear: http://www.mrpltd.co.nz/product/142/crank-sprocket-timing-mod.html

pen15
16th March 2012, 06:38 PM
everyone doing the 7age 20v please don't waste your time re cutting the keyway on your cranks gear instead use a set of adjustable gears and a Peugeot 205 gti timing belt then you don't need to recut the gear everything remains stock trust me we do many 20v 7ages a year and we don't recut anything

cheers
mat

70XIN
16th March 2012, 09:44 PM
Most people on here are not confident/capable enough to properly work out their cam timing. Most will also not want to fork out for a good dial indicator.

The recut keyway costs half that of a good set of cam gears, and is completely idiot-proof sooo ... no offence, but that's bad advice.

pen15
17th March 2012, 08:21 AM
well there isn't a need for adjustable gears but they where a suggestion and if most people aren't confident/capable of setting up cam timing why are they building a hybrid 7a 20v or a 7age in general my advice was hardly bad it was simply letting people know there is an easier option to getting a 7a 20v to time up correctly without re cutting keyways but rather using a correct belt with the 205 gti belt all you do is line up the dots is that not idiot proof?

Matt
17th March 2012, 05:24 PM
I don't think many people know that the 205 gti belt lines up correctly, what head is that using mat? I've been researching 7age's for about 6 months to be honest and there is allot of "wrong" information out there.

Everyone seams to think this bazda guy is a god for getting 300kw, but he has blown his engine since getting those numbers and the last dyno day he went to, he barely got over 200kw atw.

Living in the past that kiwi fella is

pen15
17th March 2012, 07:40 PM
turbo or na but this is for the 20v head on the 7afe bottomend the Porsche belt is for the 16v head my bosses 20v blacktop made 240 rwhp as an na and has never blown it we have also built many for the series my boss used to run in but this is fact and is well known in the clubman world

Jip86
18th March 2012, 11:57 AM
i have a peugeot belt on a 16v. you have to put the belt on, then the pulley, then put the bolt in. its not long enough to put the pulley on first then slip the belt on after.

the Porsche one would be a better fit but it can be done.

and to the idiot that told me that a 3tc fly works on a 7a crank with out any mods. your a fuckin nob!

fantapants
18th March 2012, 04:29 PM
penis, i dont understand how a 20v head on a 7a block with vvt and no adjustment to timing can work perfectly? In fact i dont understand how any of the 7a builds can be perfect timing with no modification? At the end of the day, correct me if im wrong, a belt is a belt is a belt. If its the right length for tension, its going to have the same interaction between crank and cams as any other belt?

And if you use an exhaust adjustable wheel, you are only adjusting the exhaust cam???

and ffs please put some effort into making your posts legible? i get a headache every time i have to decipher something you have posted.

ben_ray_91
9th April 2012, 03:23 PM
sooo the way i understand it, if you slap on a 20v head and use a 16v belt the timing will be out by a few degrees? this can be fixed with adjustable cam gears yes?? but the cam gears will be offset at standard timing adjustment?

Getting Bazda to recut the keyway is the best and cheaper option if you are using stock cams and duration?

Matt
9th April 2012, 07:16 PM
i'm keen to know the answer to this as i'm literally a week or so away from getting my 7a block machined...

Lets not turn this into a pissing competition either.

To summarise the whole reason for the recut keyway...

7a block is 10mm higher than 4a
You use a 4a Crank Cam belt sproket (Bit the belt goes around )
4a Bottom timing belt cover

The crank timing lines up with the markings with the 4a crank gear... and is considered to be correct.

Put on a 16v or 20v head, and your cam gears are out by a couple of degrees? Why is this the case due to the height? The extra height doesn't add any gears and it should spin at the same rate regardless right providing it starts in the same spot?

fantapants
9th April 2012, 08:04 PM
tbh matt i got no idea. im like you, weeks away from putting this pos together, but i did all my researching and buying about a year ago.

i went with the bazda recut keyway. Plan is a 16v belt, and i have a ae101 oilpump, so no hydraulic tensioner)

What you have said makes sense, but thats probably because im mildly retired? :D

70XIN
10th April 2012, 02:51 AM
Cam timing is completely dependent on the spacing of the teeth (not length of the belt), and the overall height between gears.

http://www.rollaclub.com/faq/images/e/ef/Timing_belt_marks_4age.jpg

I have attached a photo of a stock 4AGE, just to explain things a bit easier. This is WAY easier to imagine on a smaller scale, as the 7A problem has nothing to do with being multiple teeth off - it's the problem that it's multiple teeth and a few mm off.

Imagine that the deck height (or easier yet, the distance between the cam gears and the lower sprocket) is only 1mm higher, and that the crank sprocket is stuck in the perfect TDC position and cannot move no matter what. Because the timing belt between the exhaust cam and the lower sprocket ALWAYS has to be "X" number of teeth apart, and always remain tensioned, you quickly see that you HAVE to rotate the cam gear just the tiniest bit to the right to line up the teeth perfectly. This change also effects the intake cam gear, which also always wants to be exactly "X" teeth away from the exhaust cam, so it wants to rotate a little to the right to line up as well.

Your timing is now fux0red - this is similar to why a 7A is screwed up - if you try and put it together with stock everything, you'll notice your timing belt teeth are almost exactly half a tooth out - literally the worst possible timing.

I hope that makes sense - i'm pretty herp derp at explaining things.


**This is also why decking your head/block, and running different thickness head gaskets has interesting effects on cam timing**

fantapants
10th April 2012, 01:12 PM
and thats why i didnt try and confuse any one any more, knowing seamus would eventually be in here to explain things WAY betterererer than i could :)

Very clear explanation mate, thanks :D

dying3k
10th April 2012, 08:30 PM
also the reason, people who go out and deck blocks and shave heads to the shit house and run adjustable cam gears get decent power out of a basically standard 4a

fantapants
11th April 2012, 09:18 PM
what?

Seventy
12th April 2012, 01:30 PM
Depends on your clutch size.

If you were running a smallport flywheel/clutch (212mm), then it will bolt straight up to a 7AFE flywheel.

If you were running a bigport AE82/AE86 flywheel/clutch (200mm), then you need a 4AC flywheel.
Bringing this back up again, so the fwd 7a flywheel will be fine to use with an jdm 4a starter? thanks

70XIN
12th April 2012, 01:56 PM
Correct :)

Grant #2
12th April 2012, 03:35 PM
I just posted this in the other section, but I just realized this thread is here.

Guys, can I use high comp 4ag pistons (10:1) with 7afe block and ae111 head? Will the compression ratio be acceptable? I have Kelford 270 duration cams. Thanks!

dying3k
12th April 2012, 10:55 PM
http://www.csgnetwork.com/compcalc.html

stroke is 85.5mm, bore is 81~mm, (16v combustion chamber is 38cc not sure on 20v),

Grant #2
14th April 2012, 09:25 AM
Is the piston to deck gap the same as it should be when using 4a pistons on the 7a block? Meaning is the piston close to being flush with the 7a deck at TDC?

dying3k
15th April 2012, 01:56 PM
from memory yes, but you will need to work out many many cc's are taken away from 4a pistons (due to the 7a ones being a lot lower comp)

Grant #2
18th April 2012, 10:48 AM
Hey guys,

I'm thinking of buying Belfab rods for 7a in the US. They are $425 plus shipping and tax (maybe $470 when all is said and done). I'm not positive they come with ARP2000 hardware, they might just come with ARP's lower grade line of chromoly bolts. The pistons speeds are quite high at 8,000 rpm so I'm afraid to take too many shortcuts here. I'm also not even sure if the big ends come completely honed and ready to go or if the machine shop needs to do that for me.

I'm just now researching which actual rods to get, can you guys give me any input? I would buy Seamus' rods but I think the cost to get them to the US would be prohibitive?

fantapants
18th April 2012, 12:31 PM
hit up delazy, he used those rods for his build.....

takai
18th April 2012, 01:34 PM
Belfab dont come with ARP2000 hardware.

That said i have had a set from early on which have survived several 11k+ misshifts, and regular 9800rpm on the limiter down the back straight.

DX20VT
3rd June 2012, 11:04 PM
From my 7AGTE 20V experience,

when I first assembled my 7AGTE I had no trouble with the cam timing,
I had a 20V Blacktop oil pump with the hydro tensioner,
(but modified the hydro part to mechanical as they are out of the end of thier travel)
a Standard 20V crankshaft sprocket,
and ran a 16V 4AGE belt on the standard cams wheels and it all lined up properly.
Or so i thought.

The car ran like that for a while and made good power.
It ran a bearing through a broken oil pump and during reassembly we found that a BT and a ST 20V crank shaft sprocket are marked differently,
so it appeared to be lined up but we had been running it out of time so to speak.

It had been going so well we put it back together with the cam timing out again.

Bazda made 330kw at around 27psi and I made the same on 20 psi boost.
Also maybe helped by my compression ratio is closer to 9:1 where his is supposedly around 8.0:1

So on a turbo motor maybe the cam timing is better off 'out of spec'.

Also of note may be that when i put adjustable cam wells on it and timed than correctly,
it made anoth 5 hp at 8000rpm, but lost about 40hp at 6500rpm.
Next time i go back to the dyno it will be with the standard cams and wheels in the wrong position.

Also I think Bazda has stopped chasing HP now that I beat him by about 20kw at less boost.
I got it up to 354kw @ 21psi, on Standard 4AGZE pistons and rings, with a standard 20V headgasket and headstuds,.

iwantarolla
3rd July 2012, 11:15 PM
im confused how you choose the right belt to use? is it the length of the belt or the height between the cams and the crank?

Matt
4th July 2012, 08:26 AM
It is also influenced by the oil pump you are running...

rthy
8th March 2013, 04:10 PM
Am i allowed to do a dodgy and used a press pin with a smallport piston?

edit:
4AGE 100kw/Smallport Pistons use 20mm floating pin
7AFE Pistons use 20mm press pin

Matt
12th March 2013, 07:47 AM
When i did my 7a with 20v pistons, it was pressed in... Was advised by the machiner not to put a circlip on it...

rthy
12th March 2013, 01:07 PM
did you get the piston piston machined to fit the pressed gudgeon pin?

Matt
12th March 2013, 03:09 PM
I paid the machiner $30 to do them for me, not sure if machining was required or not....

rthy
12th March 2013, 05:43 PM
Thanks, did you have any issues with it?

just need to sort out the pistons then will blow tyres..... UP

Adsie
12th March 2013, 06:51 PM
Mine uses stock 7AFE rods and 20V pistons. The pins are pressed into the rod and the piston can move. Pistons do not need to be modified.

rthy
12th March 2013, 07:48 PM
i wonder if the smallport 16v are different to 20v ones?
But i have seen 16v pistons used on 20v blocks - then again donno if any mods are done.

willa
6th April 2013, 11:04 AM
Have any of you guys used ca18 pistons in your 7a builds? I recently heard of someone who did, not sure on what c.r it ended up with though

Matt
6th April 2013, 12:25 PM
20v pistons can easily be interchanged with 16v... so my pistons didn't need modifying...

Delazy
6th April 2013, 12:42 PM
Without crunching numbers.. Something Sam Q might do if you ask him too...

Ca18 pistons are often used in smallport 16v 4.5ag builds...ie 83mm bore, offset ground crank...often resulting in higher compression that standard ae92 pistons...

From memory when robbo/seamus built his 7ag 16v they used smallport pistons and resulted in a high comp motor with little ability to wind timing into it (stock ecu)

using ca18 pistons would result in high compression again (in theory)...a 83mm bore with the less than ideal rod stroke ratio of the 7a could be asking too much...

I'm definitely no engine building expert, so don't take it as gospel...just selection of information I've retained over the years and knowledge from having my own motor built...

bunki86
6th April 2013, 04:49 PM
whats the average power/ torque , one of these 7age's make ? just curious. i doubt id ever build a n/a 4 banger. im just wondering what increase of tq/hp is.

Matt
8th April 2013, 02:03 PM
Its not 100% accurate but 7a bottom end adds approx .5 compression to any 16v / 20v combination....

Delazy
8th April 2013, 04:02 PM
^^^ There abouts anyways..

ae111 pistons are 11.5:1 standard and think Sam Q calculated just over 12:1 with a standard thickness

bazda
12th April 2013, 07:03 AM
Some good info on this forum.
Great to see lots of guys building these great engines!

Just flicking a few pages back I see people were talking about the engine timing being out to the cam timing.
Here are some pics I took with a degree wheel. Degree wheel was set at TDC before the cam belt was installed.
4age 16v sprocket. oil pump cover, 20v head and 16v 4age cam belt.

Cam gears lined up:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i212/bazda/Image019_zps2b4cd04a.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/bazda/media/Image019_zps2b4cd04a.jpg.html)

Crank position:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i212/bazda/Image024_zps7daeb114.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/bazda/media/Image024_zps7daeb114.jpg.html)

When the engine is at TDC the cams are 5 deg retarded.
So the sprocket is 1 easy way to fix it by re cutting the key, or running cam gears. If your going to run cam gears then there isnt the need to re cut the spocket unless you want the cam gear marks to be correct.

Also for those running power steering on FWD models this is what we did to locate the 3rd bolt hole:
http://i73.photobucket.com/albums/i212/bazda/rebuild/Image025.jpg (http://s73.photobucket.com/user/bazda/media/rebuild/Image025.jpg.html)

Also a bit of mis-information about me and referral to god of 7a. Im not the god of 7a, I dont have the most powerful 7a engine :S. I never said I did. But some people tend to think thats what I think....?
All my results are based on a OEM 20v head with no work what so ever. If you tinkle with the head there is a whole lot more power to be found.
Since my engine failure 3 years ago melting a piston (due to short in elec boost controller running 33psi) I hadn't had much time or $ to fix the car up. Thats what you get when you get married, but a house and have kids lol.
When I got it all sorted we stuck a smaller turbo (for track use) on made full boost by 3800rpm and got 303kw @ 22psi. Should be hitting the track in a few months time! yay!

The most i've had on the dyno with this setup (7afe block, forged pistons and stock 20v head with uprated valve springs) is 340kw atw on 26psi all on 98pump gas. We were aiming for 30psi but the engine created a miss fire. Later to find the ECU was faulty.

If we can make that power any one here can do the same with the right supporting mods :)
Our next build which is currently being done is a 1.9L N/A version with some crazy crazy mods. Hoping to make 280hp+.

fantapants
12th April 2013, 10:36 PM
good to hear your still at it baz!

Levin111
30th April 2013, 06:15 PM
I noticed a few people running stock ecu's with their 7age builds so are they actually driveable or is their issues with power loss and stalling?

I'm curious to know if I can drive around with the stock ecu and an adjustable fuel pressure regulator for time being until I get an Adaptronic fitted. I'm in the process of doing a 7age 20v in my AE111 using the BT head. I'm just in the final stages or preparation and getting parts at the moment.

Delazy
30th April 2013, 06:42 PM
both robo and seamus ran stock ecu's....eventually seamus moved onto an adaptronic due to the larger cams he was running causing some issues i believe

iwantarolla
30th April 2013, 09:33 PM
what compression ratio would standard 7afe pistons, 4agze pistons be with 4age 16v head?

Matt
1st May 2013, 11:56 AM
Pending on which gze pistons you run.... Do you mean 7afe rods?

Would be approx .5 higher than a standard gze.

I ran my silvertop 7age20v on a stock blacktop ecu without issues... the .2l extra displacement is SFA and doesn't affect a/f ratios too much.

JinxD
1st May 2013, 02:44 PM
I run ae111 oem ecu on mine and it loves it with cop's as well, spread it on

Levin111
1st May 2013, 04:01 PM
Cool good to know so I can just up the fuel pressure with the adjustable regulator until I find the sweet spot and just cruise around with the blacktop ecu without dramas until I save up for the adaptronic e420d. I know the 20v injectors would be adequate to keep for now but when would it be ideal to change them to higher ones?
I figure if I were to go with aggressive cams over 272 duration it might need new injectors but I'm just using Tomei Poncams with 264/256 duration and some some general head work and compression around the 12.0:1 mark.

iwantarolla
3rd May 2013, 10:52 AM
Pending on which gze pistons you run.... Do you mean 7afe rods?

Would be approx .5 higher than a standard gze.

I ran my silvertop 7age20v on a stock blacktop ecu without issues... the .2l extra displacement is SFA and doesn't affect a/f ratios too much.well im planning on building a turbo 7age. Just low compression and what would hold up to high boost.

zdoman
26th February 2014, 09:42 AM
Good thread here, I've read the whole thing, I got a little smarter. I have an AE86 with AE92 smallport engine, TechnoToyTuning ITB adapter, AE111 45mm ITBs, 272/8,1 HKS cams with HKS springs, TRD USA 4-1 copy header, and megasquirt ECU.

I've bought now a nice 7A engine, all look pretty good, the cylinder hone, the bearings, etc. I want to make little more power out of my old engine.

I plan on using silvertop pistons ( I have a set on the shelf) as they are stronger (with the drilled oil return ring pits), lighter and have higher CR than the smallport ones.

I have a serious question. Is there anyone who have teared a stock 7A conrod?? I'd like/plan to use it as it is. If anyone says his engine was blown because of the stock conrod I'll buy an aftermarket set.

Also I'd like to ask you all about the timing belt. I've read Porsche 944 - 1986 and Peugeot 205 GTi aswell.

Which one is good/better? Am I right that the peugeot is shorter and is for the 20V heads?

The shop where I can buy them has 2,5 - 2,7 and 3l porsche 944, and 1,6 - 1,9 205 GTi Peugeot. which one to use? the T107 is enaug for the porsche belt and BT111 for the peugeot belt? these are the codes I need?

d1staz
26th February 2014, 10:19 AM
I'm using the Porsche 944 belt on my bigport 7age. From memory it's the 117 tooth belt. Not sure of the part number though. I can check for you later tonight.

d1staz
27th February 2014, 10:05 AM
This is the belt I'm using
7age (16v head) - Porche 944/924S dayco #95107 117tooth
Hope this helps.

Matt
28th February 2014, 08:29 AM
I built one with stock conrods and it was ok, but for the extra $300 odd for after market rods it isn't too much to invest in if you are worried.