View Full Version : Choosing body braces.
Sam-Q
5th December 2010, 06:44 PM
I know this is going to upset atleast one forum sponsor but I thought it would be good to have a discussion about so called braces that just don't work or how to pick which ones are the best. I have had a similar thread on club4ag for a little while which has been quite entertaining. I am only talking about structual gains here not something that helps your car stay together in an impact, there is a big difference.
Now for anyone with an ae86 with a conventional layout in the rear suspension no rear brace between your "rear strut towers" will do anything for you. Unless you put rear coilovers in they arn't even strut towers and they can not and will not work. Even with coilovers there is not a good way to make a brace that goes there without body welding. Something that goes between the seat latch mounts is a different story as this is off a very solid mounting point and braces the body itself, as a bonus it also serves as a great harness and camera mount.
Other braces had the potential for working but failed in their design such as having a small adjuster or having a U shape in the middle which both encourage flex instead of bracing anything. One bar I have seen even has both.
Bars without adjusters can be a bit of an issue as well. While initially these look to be the most solid option they need to made to fit all cars and hence have to have very wide tollerances, this means that it's pretty likely that any body movement will be taken up with the slop in the bar design. However this may not apply to some designs
Then there's braces where they don't actually brace anything or alongside a major body support.
So as a rough rule pick a brace with a large diameter, a large adjuster if there is one and in a place where it's needed.
Now I would like to see what people think and their optionins which is why this is here instead of the tech threads. I am open to corrections on things, but I need people to keep it calm or else their thread will get editted/deleted by me.
stx-16
5th December 2010, 09:50 PM
could you post up some pics or links to some good braces that you think are good and worth getting
im in the market for some decent barces
or maby some pick/links of some plases that some one like me with a welder some steal and a mean angle gringer can make some brace??
takai
5th December 2010, 09:58 PM
Harness bars between the seat anchor points, while it does seem to make sense it means that you are trusting your life to 2 M8 bolts in shear.... Stupid idea.
Sam-Q
5th December 2010, 10:09 PM
thats a very good point, it didn't cross my mind.
Sam-Q
5th December 2010, 10:10 PM
could you post up some pics or links to some good braces that you think are good and worth getting
im in the market for some decent barces
or maby some pick/links of some plases that some one like me with a welder some steal and a mean angle gringer can make some brace??
one of the only braces I have seen so far is that I know for sure is worthwhile is the whiteline strut brace. other than that it goes downhill really quick.
MarmO.
5th December 2010, 10:17 PM
when i do the cage in my car it is more going to be for bracing, full cage, with the rear bars going to the back of the hatch, then bracing off those onto the rear wheel tubs shock tops, and then back to the main hoop, then fronts and back tagged to the body in as many spots as pratical, side intrusion bars and taxi with a cross brace hopfully it should do a good job lol
takai
5th December 2010, 10:17 PM
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/3/4/8/4/1/6/webimg/259263665_tp.jpg
Effective body bracing.
http://www.j-imports.com.au/uParts/DoLuck180sx.jpg
Pointless crap.
Todd
5th December 2010, 10:18 PM
not a cusco flat bar fan?
http://memimage.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/3400/4421/33499710014_large.jpg
Sam-Q
5th December 2010, 10:21 PM
yes the cusco flat brace I saw on Takai's car I saw many years ago was very rigid so I give that the thumbs up. Is that a T3 add-on for the tri-part?
Todd
5th December 2010, 10:24 PM
it's genuine cusco i believe.
and then there are these:
http://www.aeu86.org/download/rear-cusco-tri-bar/id/2211.jpg
Sam-Q
5th December 2010, 10:27 PM
double picture?
Another popular one that has been tested back to back from a source I trust is those bars between the castor rod brackets. The guy found that it did next to nothing so he got rid of it. His was made on the car without an adjustement and went off the brackets instead of the rods themself which is the really dumb one as it's supporting something that has a bush around it.
Cerby86
5th December 2010, 10:38 PM
Harness bars between the seat anchor points, while it does seem to make sense it means that you are trusting your life to 2 M8 bolts in shear.... Stupid idea.
How much force do you think your going to apply to the bolts? Cos by the time your body is applying enough force through the harnesses to break those bolts your dead anyway.
Sam-Q
5th December 2010, 10:40 PM
it's genuine cusco i believe.
and then there are these:
http://www.aeu86.org/download/rear-cusco-tri-bar/id/2211.jpg
I need to see where the tri part of the seat latch mount goes to.
The other one next to the damper tops iis a waste of some good materials, shame on Cusco.
ke_70
5th December 2010, 11:01 PM
1 steel 1/4'' bolt will support 1 tonne of weight until it will snap/break. 2 hi tensile 8mm bolt will be a huge step up.
i have one of those cusco rear tri braces. yet to test but mine has a rectangle plate underneath the "tri'' bit where it bolts to the floor pan
Sam-Q
5th December 2010, 11:06 PM
1 steel 1/4'' bolt will support 1 tonne of weight until it will snap/break. 2 hi tensile 8mm bolt will be a huge step up.
i have one of those cusco rear tri braces. yet to test but mine has a rectangle plate underneath the "tri'' bit where it bolts to the floor pan
while a valid point also keep in mind to allow for the possible failure of the brace itself such in the form of a kink.
I don't think even welding that middle section of that 'tri-brace' will do anything. I just can't see any real movement there. The pan-hard rod controls the sideways force.
takai
6th December 2010, 07:24 AM
1 steel 1/4'' bolt will support 1 tonne of weight until it will snap/break. 2 hi tensile 8mm bolt will be a huge step up.
Yeah, a 1/4" bolt will hold 1tonne.... IN TENSION.
Most M8 HT bolts are <10kN in double shear, and thats with a shoulder on the bolt. The harness bar installation is in single shear, and usually with no shoulder on the bolt.
Andy San
6th December 2010, 08:53 AM
http://www.aeu86.org/download/rear-cusco-tri-bar/id/2211.jpg
That 'harness' bar would bend with an accident load on it I reckon.
it only has to move a little for the harnesses to come off your shoulder and then you're in trouble.
ke_70
6th December 2010, 10:22 AM
i think the tri brace would do little, but not nothing.
i dont think a panhard would act as any sort of bracing. if anything it would cause the twisting of the chassis.
because wont the panhard be pushing and pulling that chassis mount on cornering?
sundee
6th December 2010, 12:16 PM
That Tri Bar above with the harness's wrapped around it is from Jubiride, had one in my old 86... defiantly not rated for slinging harness's off them, you can pull it with your hand and flex the thing.
That front tir brace is definatly cusco - T3 is very similar but uses rod ends rather then the brackets.
sam have you tested your theory on the rear tri bar or is it just a theory from observing the structure?
ps - good thread
Delazy
6th December 2010, 12:36 PM
That front tir brace is definatly cusco - T3 is very similar but uses rod ends rather then the brackets.
its actually jubiride
http://jubiride.com/upload/RE39-20071228225525-1.jpg
Andy San
6th December 2010, 02:14 PM
looks like a cusco one with a jubiride sticker :P
sundee
6th December 2010, 03:56 PM
its got a cusco sticker on the LHS of the main bar aswell?
AJPS
6th December 2010, 05:18 PM
looks like a cusco one with a jubiride sticker :P
you are correct
Delazy
6th December 2010, 05:32 PM
sorry, i thought we were talking about the firewall - strut brace add on...not the strut brace...the strut brace pictured is certainly cusco...
but last time i checked cusco only made the strut brace...the add on however is certainly jubiride...
Sam-Q
6th December 2010, 05:51 PM
sam have you tested your theory on the rear tri bar or is it just a theory from observing the structure?
ps - good thread
good question, a combination of understanding the bending forces and examining the structure of the car. I can take an iinteresting pic of where I put a 230mm grinder through this section on an ae86, from here I can explain in more detail.
I must say I am surprised that I have not been flamed yet, afterall the facts in this thread undermine certain products for sale on here.
stx-16
6th December 2010, 06:27 PM
why flame if its going to be the truth??
lolwat
6th December 2010, 07:31 PM
why flame if its going to be the truth??
a lot of people on here do all the time
assassin10000
6th December 2010, 08:52 PM
My thoughts on these:
The Jubiride triangle brace between the seat back mounts will do something, but IMO it's too flexible & its hardware has too much slop.
The Cusco tri-point won't do much in comparison, it's bracing/bolted to the thin floor pan and the thinnest point of the SHOCK tower.
http://www.aeu86.org/download/rear-cusco-tri-bar/id/2211.jpg
Another popular one that has been tested back to back from a source I trust is those bars between the castor rod brackets. The guy found that it did next to nothing so he got rid of it. His was made on the car without an adjustement and went off the brackets instead of the rods themself which is the really dumb one as it's supporting something that has a bush around it.
Would that be me :embarassed: ? Since you mentioned c4ag I would assume so... but you know what they say about that :)) .
In any case, for visual reference here it is:
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/58802.jpg
And the club4ag thread we're talking about:
http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=83595
Onto things actually ON my car:
Fender braces.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/50699.jpg
More info here: http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=63040
A rear brace, that actually works good in my opinion/experience (and others have verified in both hatches & coupes).
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/58804.jpg
More info here: http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=8002
Aerodyne Hatchbar (bought before I understood what I was doing :gah: ). In any case, the only thing I noticed was it shutting up the sunroof rattles I had (and were driving me crazy). Otherwise nothing noteworthy could be felt.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/58805.jpg
AMT Tuning rear Tri-Bar. Works great, about equal with the rear bar I came up with to replace the Ueo one you can see in these pics. Not necessary or needed for a coupe (and it won't fit) as the seat back area/package tray/etc do the same job.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/58806.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/58807.jpg
Andrew
Sam-Q
6th December 2010, 09:47 PM
yep Andrew aimed at you, I trust you as a source as you do back to back testing and are looking for a real result not to stroke your own ego. That rear tri bar looks really good, the only thing that doesn't make sense to me is how can it be fitted to different cars? does it come with spacers? When I made a bar that goes between my seat latch mounts I could not slide it in because of the shape of the body, I had to have a 5mm packer in there. When I had enough of it being in the way I sold it and it would not fit into the car of the guy I sold it to. I ended up using a block of wood and a massive hammer to get the extra few mm I needed to fit it in. After that no spacer was needed and it fit really good.
roadsailing
6th December 2010, 09:53 PM
sam is this a thread where you are interested in people's experience with various bars or one where you apply armchair "engineering" to photos from the web? :P
I don't personally think those rear bars do anything besides provide somewhere to mount harness bars (and its the handfull of spot welds on either side unzipping that concern me more than the M8 bolts being used) but i have heard that the rear braces do stiffen things up a bit.
In contrast i put a strut brace in my corona and i can't tell one lick of difference, mind you it still has soap tyres and stock suspension so i didn't expect it to make that much difference.
oh, nobody mention seam rivetting!
Sam-Q
6th December 2010, 09:56 PM
time to dig out some old pics, this ended up annoying me too much so as I described above it was sold, the guy got a really good deal and I have no idea where it is now.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/58825.jpg
this was made out of 32 x 0.9 (1-1/4" x 0.035")
Maybe it't been done before but I have never seen it: this was made so that it could be bolted into place with no compromise of using the rear seat as shown below. This flat part of the plate was very thick and hard against the body.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/58826.jpg
When the seat was up it pushed against the brace and pushed the carpet in.
Sam-Q
6th December 2010, 10:00 PM
sam is this a thread where you are interested in people's experience with various bars or one where you apply armchair "engineering" to photos from the web? :P
I don't personally think those rear bars do anything besides provide somewhere to mount harness bars (and its the handfull of spot welds on either side unzipping that concern me more than the M8 bolts being used) but i have heard that the rear braces do stiffen things up a bit.
In contrast i put a strut brace in my corona and i can't tell one lick of difference, mind you it still has soap tyres and stock suspension so i didn't expect it to make that much difference.
oh, nobody mention seam rivetting!
well I have to say I am getting enjoyment out of both! hehehe. I can't personally vouch for those seat latch braces, I didn't get to test mine properly however I have also heard feedback from various people worth listening to that they work.
I didn't bother talking about extra spots and seams as I figure it's worthy of a thread of it's own and lets face it the reality is it's out of reach of most of the people in this forum.
assassin10000
6th December 2010, 10:17 PM
The tri-bar had a slight angle to the end bracket/tabs to make it easier to put into place IIRC. No spacers necessary, it's a close fit.
I agree, keep this just about bracing (or bandaids for those of us who haven't gotten around to seam/stitch welding and cages). Getting into the other stuff is a whole new can of worms.
As I've said before, (and most of us know/realize) the truly best way is a properly made cage tying into the suspension pickup points. But that's beyond many people and completely unnecessary for a lot of cars that will never see the kind of use requiring it either.
Andrew
mack 10
7th December 2010, 02:14 AM
Real men weld in.
keiichi
7th December 2010, 12:20 PM
I have a steel bolt in half cage in my ke70, how legit are these? do they actually help in a crash? help much with rigidity?
the front loop bolts into the floor with a plate on the opposite side, then the rearward bars bolt to two vertical bars that meet them under the parcel shelf and bolt into the floor of the boot. would be good to know how much this actually does.
FAST EDDIE
7th December 2010, 07:16 PM
i didnt even realy notice the difference putting a full weld in cage in my sprinter. funily enough there is a massive crack through the tunnel where the shifter hole is since i put it in. accident wise a tri bar in the engine bay will do little to nothing if you have seen any cars fitted with one they just bend like bananas and in a ae or ke they are bolted to a piece of thin not reinforced steel in the bulkhead!.
i was going to say about the "hatch bar" noted above that aint gonna do fark all ever.
Sam-Q
7th December 2010, 07:26 PM
keiichi: show a pic of what you have
eddie: I have thought about that attachment of the third mount on tri-bars and have wondered on how they mount anything there, maybe they use the 3 little m6 holes? if so that aint going to do jack
lolwat
7th December 2010, 07:54 PM
if you notice beus(that how you spell it isnt it) with his (welding in one) he has actually plated it, how much that would actually help i dunno
FAST EDDIE
7th December 2010, 08:54 PM
heres mine i welded a plate against the cowel panel and to the strut towers inbetween the bars dont realy know if it does anything but looks cool
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/showthread.php/23475-Choosing-body-braces.?p=325110#post325110
Sam-Q
7th December 2010, 08:54 PM
looks damn solid to me, well done. Although have you braced the strut tower where the pipe is welded?
FAST EDDIE
7th December 2010, 08:56 PM
yer i shaped a 3mm plate around it!!
heres a bit more bracing i did while i rebuilt it, it reinforces teh crumple zone of the ae86 chassis
ach_66
7th December 2010, 09:20 PM
Yeah, a 1/4" bolt will hold 1tonne.... IN TENSION.
Most M8 HT bolts are <10kN in double shear, and thats with a shoulder on the bolt. The harness bar installation is in single shear, and usually with no shoulder on the bolt.
10kN is 10 tonne if I'm not mistaking!?
Have you seen how the seat belts are fitted to the rear of the car, and to what. 1M10 I think (with a pissy M6 locating bolt), in shear, into 1.2mm thin unreinforced body work.
Sam-Q
7th December 2010, 09:35 PM
10kN is 10 tonne if I'm not mistaking!?
Have you seen how the seat belts are fitted to the rear of the car, and to what. 1M10 I think (with a pissy M6 locating bolt), in shear, into 1.2mm thin unreinforced body work.
you better look on the other side of that "unreinforced body work"
Skylar
7th December 2010, 10:10 PM
10kN is 10 tonne if I'm not mistaking!?
F=mA=10,000N.
A=9.8m/s/s
m=F/A
m=10000N/9.8m/s/s
m=1020kg
Cerby86
7th December 2010, 10:20 PM
the thing is if your talking about applying that much force in sheer to a harness bar what is it that applies that force? Your body. So you talking about an impact of over ten g's for most people to apply that sheer force. surely if your in a crash with that much impact you have bigger problems that your harness bar coming free?
lolwat
7th December 2010, 10:33 PM
i would say so by what he said
"i welded a plate against the cowel panel and to the strut towers inbetween the bar"
looks solid as fuck (Y)
ke_70
7th December 2010, 10:44 PM
safteys all about fail safe guys. if you wearing a harness your in a track car so weld it in. but i still think will be fine (is it 2 bolts either side or one each end?)
and for those thinking that crashing is safer with a cage. think again. gunner will be here soon to elaborate more soon.
keiichi
7th December 2010, 10:51 PM
safteys all about fail safe guys. if you wearing a harness your in a track car so weld it in. but i still think will be fine (is it 2 bolts either side or one each end?)
and for those thinking that crashing is safer with a cage. think again. gunner will be here soon to elaborate more soon.
i would be very interested with what he has to say.
from my understanding, most the cages you get on street cars are only going to help in a roll over so your head doesnt get squished or you break your back. i can only imagine the many ways a half cage or something could injure you in a severe rear ending or something like that.
ke_70
7th December 2010, 11:00 PM
nope gunners old mans a paramedic or somthing?
basicaly it stops the rescuers from rescueing you
and yes even half cages.
keiichi
7th December 2010, 11:06 PM
cant they just cut it like they often have to cut the doors open n stuff anyway.
munchen
8th December 2010, 12:08 AM
not this stupid argument again...if you have a cage the firey's cant get in to get you out
In my opinion any decent cage is actually going to make it easier to get you out in the sense of your not being pinned in your car (unless the accidents is at such a force that the cage gets mangled, which would result in you most likely being dead had it not been there) sure, it might make it harder to cut the roof off, but i dont see that being an issue because you can window it.
the above is my opinion, like it or not, but i am more than happy to run cages in street cars
Andy San
9th December 2010, 11:56 AM
if you have a broken spine it makes it hard to 'window' it
lolwat
9th December 2010, 01:16 PM
cant they just cut it like they often have to cut the doors open n stuff anyway.
would you prefer them to take 3 mins or 6 mins when you have blood pissing out of your heard and hanging upside?????
and this is a stupid arguement no matter what you say how factural or not it is if you wont a cage your going to cage it anyway
haha i love how people think that despite being half fucked after a crash they can dukes of hazard it out the window
keiichi
9th December 2010, 02:04 PM
why are you so mad? no-one is arguing, calm down.
munchen
9th December 2010, 02:56 PM
if you have a broken spine it makes it hard to 'window' it
if you have a proper cage then chances are you will also be using appropriate seating and harnesses
Andy San
9th December 2010, 03:06 PM
You'd hope so but judging by what most people on here consider to be a 'safe' bucket seat I'm not so sure. Plenty of people might run harnesses in their cars, but don't wear them for daily driving.
Delazy
9th December 2010, 03:44 PM
You'd hope so but judging by what most people on here consider to be a 'safe' bucket seat I'm not so sure.
Seen some nasty bucket seats, cracking and flexing from sitting in them let alone in a collision!
Seriously dnt understand why they dont spend slightly more and get something decent. The velo range is awesome and quite affordable.
Despite my build having jap this and that/everything im certainly overlooking bride/takata and going straight to velo for seats and harnesses.
Andy San
9th December 2010, 04:18 PM
Well as an employee of velo I can certainly vouch for the amount of time and effort that goes into making each seat.
They are all still hand made and I never realised how much time goes into laying up the shells until I saw one get made up
Slimer86
9th December 2010, 04:59 PM
Sam, Timmy D made a rear bar brace like the one you pictured for the back of his GZE sprinter.
Said it was quite effective.
Check his build thread.
KurtHS
9th December 2010, 05:45 PM
You'd hope so but judging by what most people on here consider to be a 'safe' bucket seat I'm not so sure. Plenty of people might run harnesses in their cars, but don't wear them for daily driving.
There's only one way to learn so instead of just saying what you people don't do you should suggest what they should do, I see a lot of 'people don't know shit' 'that does nothing' etc etc but no 'hey if you do it like this it'll be safer' or 'use X instead of Y because it's better quality'
... not having a go but it's better for everyone if you point out flaws and then back that up with a better product.
I got a half cage because I'm a mummas boy and she told me to have one as long as I live at her house :jdmsmile: could've moved out if I didn't have the car but where's the fun in that. Rollover protection is surely increased? I'm not worried about side/rear/frontal impact because unless you have a beast of a cage you're not gonna fair too well in a small 80's Corolla. That said I have a Velo bucket and harness.
Skylar
9th December 2010, 05:58 PM
Why is it that I don't see many, (wait, I don't think I've ever seen) aluminium seats in street cars/drift cars/club race cars. They're safer than fibreglass/whatever material seats aren't they?
Andy San
9th December 2010, 06:14 PM
well a 20 year old shitty fibreglass seat without a fire retardent cover and god knows how many scratches/chips/dents/holes in the fibreglass is pretty obvious to me as a crap seat.
For a road car these things aren't as critical, but you're still just as likely to get cleaned up on the public roads as crashing on the racetrack. I learned this a few years ago when i got rear ended in my 'Sick period correct 80's bride recliner, which reclined about 20 degrees back when i got hit.
To me it is worth spending $1000 on a good seat and belts if you are planning on driving your car seriously, it's not something you can buy after.
Andy San
9th December 2010, 06:17 PM
Why is it that I don't see many, (wait, I don't think I've ever seen) aluminium seats in street cars/drift cars/club race cars. They're safer than fibreglass/whatever material seats aren't they?
NOOOO they are the worst thing out there, your standard seat is better!
they fold up in a crash and unlike a fibreglass seat they stay folded.
Plus they are uncomfortable as to sit on
stx-16
9th December 2010, 06:27 PM
i think he means one that is molded just like an FRP seat and reinforced so it wont fold and shit and is padded and trimmed like a normal bucket seat
sundee
9th December 2010, 06:42 PM
good question, a combination of understanding the bending forces and examining the structure of the car. I can take an iinteresting pic of where I put a 230mm grinder through this section on an ae86, from here I can explain in more detail.
I must say I am surprised that I have not been flamed yet, afterall the facts in this thread undermine certain products for sale on here.
Requesting interesting pic to get this thread back on topic, thread is "choosing body braces" not safety of roll cages and bucket seats!
I don't personally think those rear bars do anything besides provide somewhere to mount harness bars (and its the handfull of spot welds on either side unzipping that concern me more than the M8 bolts being used) but i have heard that the rear braces do stiffen things up a bit.
When i worked at this Aviation engineering mob, we use to test the spot welds every 100 welds to make sure they were still up to standard.
We used 1mm sheet ally, 1 single spot weld, and we would sling 100KG off the end up and down 3 times on a crane and they would not break.
From memory their are about 6 spot welds in that particular area each side, so it should be up for the job for mounting a bar for harness's
blair
9th December 2010, 09:57 PM
if you have a broken spine it makes it hard to 'window' it
gaha, i legit laughed out loud when i read that, thanks man!
would you prefer them to take 3 mins or 6 mins when you have blood pissing out of your heard and hanging upside?????
and this is a stupid arguement no matter what you say how factural or not it is if you wont a cage your going to cage it anyway
haha i love how people think that despite being half fucked after a crash they can dukes of hazard it out the window
i got t-boned at like 80kph and couldnt even walk out of the hospital 12hours later, but i dukes of hazzard'd it out the window.... maybe shock and adrenaline super combo?
lolwat
9th December 2010, 11:19 PM
arrkk fair enough i will retract my statement
Skylar
10th December 2010, 12:10 AM
Why do sprint cars and nascars run them? Is it cos they have beefy cages that won't cave in when they hit whatever? I thought aluminium seats were easier on the body as they deform a little and absorb some of the shock as opposed to a fibreglass seat which doesn't budge (until the point when it snaps) and puts all the force into the body.
Andy San
10th December 2010, 08:41 AM
Why do sprint cars and nascars run them? Is it cos they have beefy cages that won't cave in when they hit whatever? I thought aluminium seats were easier on the body as they deform a little and absorb some of the shock as opposed to a fibreglass seat which doesn't budge (until the point when it snaps) and puts all the force into the body.
will start another discussion thread about this topic as it isn't really anything to do with body bracing.
ke_70
1st January 2011, 11:15 PM
so i went through jays thread looking for a pic of those strut tower braces and came across these in my travels...
1. panhard brace
2. is that the harness bar your talking about? (tri brace there also)
3. and these havent been mentioned yet...
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/9/7886.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/9/7883.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/9/7516.jpg
Sam-Q
1st January 2011, 11:30 PM
1- pan-hard thing: complete waste of time
2- rear one: useless
2- rear top mounts? can't imagne that doing much, anyone elses thoughts?
3- looks really nice but how to you adjust the length?
assassin10000
1st January 2011, 11:37 PM
^ pretty much what sam said.
1. useless (with that design/materials) but a proper panhard reinforcement can be of help on a car seeing significant side loads w/race tires.
2. upper piece is useless (across the bolts for the rear seat belts)
3. meh, hinged again. Or did you mean the 'shakkito'/shoulder plate things? If so those aren't worth a crap (if single layer/bolt in type).
Andrew
ke_70
1st January 2011, 11:40 PM
adjust length? they're fixed and welded in.
yeah the sholder plates.
theres a hot version or ae86 club vid of testing those sholder plates. they seemed to really like them i think.
Sam-Q
1st January 2011, 11:56 PM
ok I am confused what both you guys are talking about in regard to that strut brace. I don't have a problem with it having a pivot but it needs a length adjuster.
I can't see any pan-hard mount support helping. That area is so tough unless it's rested out I can't see how any bolt on part could help. Happy to be shown otherwise
ke_70
2nd January 2011, 12:08 AM
how's that? :)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/2/1/59954.jpg
edit. some people think the length adjuster on the strut braces weaken them. i can see how they'd help though.
Sam-Q
2nd January 2011, 12:11 AM
hahha I didn't even notice!!
no idea on how well they work
assassin10000
2nd January 2011, 12:33 AM
ok I am confused what both you guys are talking about in regard to that strut brace. I don't have a problem with it having a pivot but it needs a length adjuster.
I can't see any pan-hard mount support helping. That area is so tough unless it's rested out I can't see how any bolt on part could help. Happy to be shown otherwise
Really? I can't stand strut braces with pivots. Adjusters even more so (if made well it doesn't need them). IIRC The strut towers when not tied together can move 'up' independently under load in a corner and when it does so it will deflect in/out(L/R) to a much more minor degree. With the pivot it removes some of the in/out, and in doing so starts to limit the upwards movement under load, but because of the pivot as it limits it also pulls the opposite tower inwards. The a solid strut brace prevents both the in/out movement AND the upwards movement, some what like an anti-roll/'sway' bar reacts to the control arms. A lot of people (myself included at one point) forget or don't know/realize that the forces acting on the strut towers are of the vertical variety for the most part.
At least, thats my understanding of it.
I'm not 100% sure, but I think the N2 ae86's in japan started with the reinforcing of the panhard mount. It maybe they were tearing them on race tires when contacting the rumble strips or they were actually seeing unwanted deflection when racing. I'm not sure, and I don't have any really good sources of info on it. But I have seen that area fold/break on several cars that have slid into curbs without as much force as others thought it would take.
Andrew
ke_70
2nd January 2011, 01:09 AM
by solid strut brace do you mean eddie spec pipe welded to the firewall from the tower?
could you just weld the pivot?
assassin10000
2nd January 2011, 01:45 AM
I meant like the Carbing or Ueo style ones. No pivots or adjustments. A welded one would also work, but may interfere with working on your engine ;) .
Andrew
ke_70
2nd January 2011, 11:02 AM
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/2/1/551423.jpg
ke70dave
2nd January 2011, 11:50 AM
how's that? :)
edit. some people think the length adjuster on the strut braces weaken them. i can see how they'd help though.
the idea of the adjuster is to put "preload" on your strut towers.
no point having a strut brace if there is 2mm clearance before the strut brace takes up.
i think alot of the guys in here are overestimating the amount of force that these braces are taking, and underestimating the amount of strength in a length of bar.
you are not trying to hold 4T of force with any of these braces, the forces involved will be fairly low, sections of steel will take ALOT of force before they fail.
what you are trying to avoid is movement in the chassis. you are trying to ensure that all forces are transfered to the springs not through the chasssis. and from my understanding this is because the springs are predictable to the driver, where as chassis bending isnt. which is why its a good idea to brace suspension points together.
braces should be designed so that the elements of the brace are on tension and compression (tension is better as it avoids buckling). as long as the members are not placed in bending then they will take ALOT of force.
i cant seem to find it on the net, but at work i have a design book on safe loads for beams in compression, i think you will be amazed at the amount of force these members will take.
also the discussion on bolts....forget about bolts failing, they will take alot more than you can throw at them. and like i said before, the beams shouldnt be taking all of force anyway if the brace is designed correctly.
but overall, in all cases you are better off welding in steel tubing braces than bolting them in, as its just one extra "fail point".
how can you expect a brace to add rigideity if itself has extra bolts, pivots, and whatever that lower the rigitity from the get-go???
but then people like cusco would be out of a job, and jo-bob coudlnt go and purchase the entire cusco catalogue and belive his car is race car.
dirty_86
4th January 2011, 03:07 PM
Sam, I've still got the bar and it still works great.
I can see why you got rid of it though, because I can't fit all the thIngs I used to.
If you want to borrow it or something let me know.
time to dig out some old pics, this ended up annoying me too much so as I described above it was sold, the guy got a really good deal and I have no idea where it is now.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/58825.jpg
this was made out of 32 x 0.9 (1-1/4" x 0.035")
Maybe it't been done before but I have never seen it: this was made so that it could be bolted into place with no compromise of using the rear seat as shown below. This flat part of the plate was very thick and hard against the body.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/58826.jpg
When the seat was up it pushed against the brace and pushed the carpet in.
Tim.duncan
4th January 2011, 04:06 PM
hear is mine i made a little while ago, modded a brace that i got given to me to be able to still use the rear seats. had to cut a hole in the interia plastic though
i can defiantly feel the difference between having it fitter or not, really feel the car twist without it. highly recommend fitting some sort of brace welded or not
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/9/29779.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/9/29780.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/9/30396.jpg
AJPS
5th January 2011, 12:39 PM
1- pan-hard thing: complete waste of time
i disagree, while I would have it welded personally, but I have seen several ae/ke panhard chassis mounts break spot welds and some had not hit anything.
but I do agree with you that its not going to make the car go round corners faster or whatever
Sam-Q
5th January 2011, 06:03 PM
wow that's really odd, I had a look at it and the way it was made under my car was solid as anything. Any chance of rust fatigue?
Also I stand by my original statment, that pan-hard thing is a waste of time. Weak or not I can't see that partcular thing doing much with such a thin material. Other ones well I don't know as I would have to see them.
filfilfil
19th May 2011, 02:09 AM
Just reading all this for the first time and now looking at the pile of $$$ still in boxes I can relist :-)
Weak or not I can't see that partcular thing doing much with such a thin material.
Not sure the "thin material" is an issue if the force is as ke70dave was suggesting tension or compression of the beam and the tube was of such a diameter to not bow under load?
Im curious about the nature of all these braces to add some value in reducing movement in areas that shouldnt move and so reduce fatigue issues in the shell, something I think may be a large contributor to flexing as our cars age?
Would I be correct in summarizing we agree the main braces of value so far are between the rear seat mounts, between the front strut towers and around the rear floor (with varying levels of success depending upon materials and fixing methods)?...... and the jury is still out on the rest?
Just trying to decide on the best bang for buck without going to seam welding or cages etc...
....and did anyone have experience with front fender braces?
LittleRedSpirit
19th May 2011, 08:34 AM
Ive had a pretty hard prang with fender braces installed.
Im of the opinion that they did a good job of maintainig the distance between the strut towers and the firewall as the front end caved.
Everything bent rightfrom where the fender braces started, and everything covered by them held its shape, to the point where the braces came out straight and most steel in front of them was ruined.
Aside from the crash i could feel greater rigidity in my chassis with them installed, and combined with the rear 4 point brace the car would pop a wheel going up or down a driveway, whereas before it would flex and keep all 4 wheels down somewhow.
I think they are well worth it, especially in a car as old and potentially floppy as an 80s Toyota.
assassin10000
19th May 2011, 09:14 AM
Fender braces = win.
Andrew
filfilfil
19th May 2011, 10:32 PM
Ive had a pretty hard prang with fender braces installed.
Im of the opinion that they did a good job of maintainig the distance between the strut towers and the firewall as the front end caved.
Everything bent rightfrom where the fender braces started, and everything covered by them held its shape, to the point where the braces came out straight and most steel in front of them was ruined.
Aside from the crash i could feel greater rigidity in my chassis with them installed, and combined with the rear 4 point brace the car would pop a wheel going up or down a driveway, whereas before it would flex and keep all 4 wheels down somewhow.
I think they are well worth it, especially in a car as old and potentially floppy as an 80s Toyota.
Thats the type of experienced reply I was looking for (perhaps not the prang bit!) and the answer I suspected (and was wanting to believe)...
thanks for the info
Any other opinions of braces....esp those rear hatch floor ones?
Jacobxxx
24th January 2013, 05:53 PM
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/3/6/3/7/538470.jpg
Has anyone ever seen one of these Hot Version AE86 Braces for sale? or just a one off?
sundee
25th January 2013, 12:02 AM
I have a pretty good rule of thumb here, if you install something and you can "feel" and notice a difference in the characteristic of the car , then it's working.
You guys can debate all day about what looks good on paper, but in the end of the day who cares what the paper tells you,
Drive a car without a eg. front strut brace, swerve the car side to side, then install a brace correctly, and do the same.
The car becomes more responsive and accurate to steering input.
It has an effect, so it works.
And every little bit counts.
It doesn't matter if its a single piece bar or a bar with threaded adjustments.
Nothing wrong with your bolt on strut brace, the mounting plates need to be firm around the bolts on the strut or hug the flaired section ontop of the strut.
Just test it for yourself and you will see they work.
Jacob I've seen those braces before, you can buy them new, check yahoo Jp.
Sam-Q
25th January 2013, 01:39 AM
that doesn't allow for placebo effect, I knew a guy who could feel the difference from an electric "turbocharger". But technically your right if the person feels the difference then it's doing it job, perceived or real.
Quite an interesting design that hot version model
sundee
25th January 2013, 08:48 AM
Placebo effect, in that not an effect of taking ice?
Haha like I said paper is not the be all end end all of this stuff,
Front braces have the most effect, out of front and rear, the difference IMO is fairly significant.
Jacobxxx
25th January 2013, 01:33 PM
They are a good design
Goes through two guards bolts, all strut top bolts and bolts through firewall. Bar is flat so no bends to flex. Looks ideal.
Sam-Q
25th January 2013, 02:06 PM
what I want to know is how do they allow for different widths between cars
Jacobxxx
25th January 2013, 06:09 PM
Im under the impression it's a one off.
johl
25th January 2013, 06:17 PM
it looks like they have used shakito plates made by nagisa auto and added the brace between the two. last time i looked there were a few "shakito plates" on yahoo but they arnt cheap and i dont think they would have been thick enough to support a strut brace
Gunner
25th January 2013, 06:19 PM
just some 25x50rhs and some gussets by the look of it, bout $25, incl paint id say lol probably work better than most bolt on jobbies
Jacobxxx
25th January 2013, 06:31 PM
it looks like they have used shakito plates made by nagisa auto and added the brace between the two. last time i looked there were a few "shakito plates" on yahoo but they arnt cheap and i dont think they would have been thick enough to support a strut brace
Pretty different to the nagisa plates, but same concept only incorporating a strut brace
Nagisa plate
http://www.nagisa-auto.com/products/shakitto/image/shakitto_fd3s_up.jpg
Only about $100 or so to buy on yahoo + shipping etc
Gunner
25th January 2013, 06:35 PM
i didnt look at the picture properly haha
meadan
25th January 2013, 06:50 PM
Those folded sheet metal braces dont look like they would do much. The fold placement doesnt seem to be very strategic.
When I added a triangulated strut brace I noticed a bit of difference. Id say it was similar to that of the fender braces.
Just a general FYI too, strut braces are designed to work in tension and not compression.
ollymuffin
31st March 2013, 09:41 PM
What do you guys think about fender bracing?
I've heard in subaru's new and old it definitely makes the front end firmer and more responsive and people have even said after mountain drives they has been creaks and ticks after pulling up at home at turning the car off.
Any experience here with that kind of thing?
I've also seen chassis' where the original battery position was and vice versa on the other side of some 1 1/4" bars welding in similar to a Y shape to improve chassis strength but that could be a load of bull****
bunki86
1st April 2013, 12:21 AM
solid info here, if you count "maybe's" and "think so's"
haha so funny.
Sam-Q
1st April 2013, 09:53 AM
Those folded sheet metal braces dont look like they would do much. The fold placement doesnt seem to be very strategic.
When I added a triangulated strut brace I noticed a bit of difference. Id say it was similar to that of the fender braces.
Just a general FYI too, strut braces are designed to work in tension and not compression.
I agree with the useless sheet metal thing but I can say for sure that strut braces do work under compression. I know because the thrreads on the studs for my strut tops are somewhat comrpessed, which would take a lot of force. Also if they where under tension then they would only need wires between the towers and companies wouldn't both making them rigid.
hayashi
23rd September 2013, 08:46 PM
I found the Hot Version shock tower plates: http://www.mirage.co.jp/hairacing/syakitto.html
They're made by a company called HAI Racing: http://www.mirage.co.jp/hairacing/
They're an interesting design, compared to the Nagisa ones. The firewall mounting position uses the existing bolt holes for the wiper motor on the right, and the windshield washer valve on the left. However, you'll need to tap an extra hole on the left next to the washer valve to mirror the two hole arrangement as the wiper motor. They're also trussed underneath between the firewall and the shock tower sections as can be seen here: http://minkara.carview.co.jp/en/userid/913620/blog/28042022/
Some cars like the EVO & S15 have these shock tower plates welded in from the factory, so they do serve a purpose. However, I'm not sure how effective bolt on plates are. The engineer in me would think they at least do a better job than the Nagisa ones because instead of using small screws along the same plane as the shock tower bolts, you're bolting to the firewall on a perpendicular axis.
Even though Tsuchiya used it on his car to test in the Hot Version AE86 Club video, I don't think he runs them currently, at least in all of his recent engine bay shots. He mentions in the video that with the plates, the turn in response is better and gave the car a more oversteer characteristic. What's strange is with the integrated bar installed, he got a slightly slower time.
Sam-Q
23rd September 2013, 09:06 PM
there's a few things I find wrong with it the main one is it's thin as for the forces that are meant to be going through it. The next main one is there is no adjustment in that cross bar. I have seen and know first hand that the tension of bolts is not enough to resist the loads from the towers. Without adjustment it has to have oversized hole to allow for variations between cars and hence the cross bar will be near useless.
You're right about it being an interesting design though
hayashi
23rd September 2013, 09:25 PM
Wish I had access to a full CAD model of an AE86 chassis, so we could do FEA's on it, huh Sam? lol
We'd probably get assassinated before the results could be posted.
Another thing that's still bugging me are those Spoon Rigid Collars.
Jacobxxx
6th November 2013, 07:54 PM
How cool is this
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/515556.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/515557.jpg
Sam-Q
6th November 2013, 08:49 PM
How cool is this
unfortunately in terms of bracing that would be completely useless, I can explain why in detail if you like
Jimmee1990
6th November 2013, 10:35 PM
I would say there is some merit in bracing the panhard rod mount, needs to be more substantial than the one pictured previously though. I have seen a few corollas with bent mounts or breaking the spot welds, purely from cornering loads on R compound tyres.
AJPS
7th November 2013, 02:21 AM
unfortunately in terms of bracing that would be completely useless, I can explain why in detail if you like
yeah definitely looks like it would do nothing
i cut my rear brace out when the cage went in
Sam-Q
7th November 2013, 10:10 AM
I would say there is some merit in bracing the panhard rod mount, needs to be more substantial than the one pictured previously though. I have seen a few corollas with bent mounts or breaking the spot welds, purely from cornering loads on R compound tyres.
From what I read on here previously I agree, however the ones I have seen so far have been piss-weak. It's tempting for me to make a proper one that would be massively stronger than the junk they sell. I have all the tools to do it.
Sam-Q
7th November 2013, 10:43 AM
I have been thinking about it and I could make a pan-hard mount that would be stupidly strong yet affordable. I will look into it when I get a moment of time to gauge interest.
evil86
13th April 2015, 10:46 PM
I'm digging up this thread to see if anyone's made any new revelations fir 2015. I'd be keen to see your design for the panhard mount Sam.
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