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halifax
26th May 2005, 08:46 PM
some may hav seen this on toymods thought it was a good topic for here, wats better to put in 86's 20v's or gze's?

upgarage
26th May 2005, 08:55 PM
gze will always beat 20v
stock that is

seek
26th May 2005, 08:59 PM
20v is a pain in the ass to put in i understand

Monster
26th May 2005, 09:56 PM
Hope no one takes offence to this...
I believe that the GZE is more suited to beginners who enjoy stabbing at the throttle and being able to fall into the torque band no matter what RPM.
The 20v is more suited to more advanced drivers who can use the cars dynamics and suspension geometry to place themselves in or around a corner while keeping the engine in its very narrow sweet spot.
20v are about as hard to put in a hachi as a GZE. Doing all the work yourself you can put a black top 20v in your hachi for as little as $3500. The GZE is about the same, though you have to deal with the throttle facing the wrong way.
My personal choice is a heavily modified 16v, for the price of either, you can get yourself a 100kw short engine, set of quad throttles and say a decent ECU with a little left over for maybe a 0.5mm head gasket and light port and polish. This will not get you to the power levels of either the 20v or GZE but if you know how to use all 9000 revolutions...
Well...

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
27th May 2005, 11:38 PM
20v's have a very wide torque band compared to 16v....
lot less torque than a gze but more rpm range....
Pretty simple.... Up to personal preference...

i got a 20v and i like it! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/cool.gif

monkeymajik
28th May 2005, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Loki Boyracer@May 26 2005, 08:56 PM
This will not get you to the power levels of either the 20v or GZE but if you know how to use all 9000 revolutions...
Well...

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif
On the dyno 16v(smallport) and 20v put down approx the same power.

I would say that the 20v is more of a headache to install in an ae86 than the gze. Firewall clearance, water outlets...

Im not saying that the 20v is a bad choice. I want to own a 20v ae86 at some stage, they sound horn!

but...

The gze will always be faster. It has more power, more torque, wider torque range...

slydar
28th May 2005, 04:00 PM
i really doubt a 100kw will put down the same numbers as a 20v. i really hope not anyway, otherwise ive up graded for nothing.

i agree though, ultimate is a hard core na 16v.

of the 2 mentioned though, i dont think theres anything hard about fitting a 20v. no real harder than a 16v of FWD origin. the parts are a little harder to source, mainly water housings ect. theyre a pretty good tech doc on toymods though, if you read that youll realised its really not that complex and there is no nead for those ugly water lines running from the back of the engine.

even simpler is to buy the conversion parts from Ant Kellam.

no experiance with the gze.. but Ant sells the parts to make that easy too http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif

decoyslikecurves
29th May 2005, 03:34 PM
I disagree.... The ultimate is a worked blacktop 20 valve... say with the toda catalogue installed and one of those cool ecu's that learn your driving style and adjust suiting to it.

ae86 drifter
29th May 2005, 09:20 PM
well i always have been lead to believe that the 20v has more kws then the gze.maximum tourqe in the 20v in produced at 5200rpm and max power at 7400rpm.Gze has the low down tourqe till bout 6500rpm then dies off after that.i like both but have a silver top in mine

drft86
29th May 2005, 10:00 PM
what about a beefed up 4-ac http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/blink.gif

halifax
29th May 2005, 10:30 PM
Originally posted by decoyslikecurves@May 29 2005, 02:34 PM
I disagree.... The ultimate is a worked blacktop 20 valve... say with the toda catalogue installed and one of those cool ecu's that learn your driving style and adjust suiting to it.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/ohmy.gif please tell more about the ecu
and ae86 drifter look at this http://www.users.bigpond.com/vidore/toyota_4age_engine.htm
dont know how accurate power figures are but this is what i have always gone off

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
30th May 2005, 02:16 AM
didn't twincam.org just do a comparison of the GZE and 20v at willowbank just the other month... i stumbled into them on the way back from QR and did a few runs too.
I remembered the result was pretty much a tie between the 20v and GZE over the 1/4 mile....
A stock GZE and a stock 20v are as quick as each other.... but drive completly different...
I remember i can hold 3rd till the end.... i'm pretty sure a GZE will need 4th to cross the line.... unless he's using some real gay diff ratios....

monkeymajik
30th May 2005, 02:37 AM
While I agree that on a circuit a 20v will be competitive to a GZE. There is no way it would be close over the 1/4 mile.

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
30th May 2005, 03:51 AM
Well... it is...

Although different drivers/slight different mods etc would of made some difference... But the result stands...

I personally would of thought the gze's would be faster too cuz i've been in a few... The peak G's definatly feels higher but at the same time... the peak acceleration is not sustained as long as the 20v.

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
30th May 2005, 03:51 AM
forgot to add this... http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif
http://www.twincam.org/drags09042005.htm

monkeymajik
30th May 2005, 11:40 AM
Interesting result. I would put down the simular times to the difficulty to get any power down with a fwd gze.

The power delivery of the 20v suits a fwd layout.

Also on motec's engine dyno...
Silvertop 20V = 138Hp @ 7700 RPM at the flywheel (102.9kw)
Blacktop 20V + 144Hp @ 7800 RPM at flywheel (107.3)

option1
30th May 2005, 06:33 PM
Why not the best of both worlds ............. 20V Head on a GZE Bottom end turbo !!

Works very well ..........

upgarage
30th May 2005, 07:47 PM
bigport head on gze bottom end apparently better

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
30th May 2005, 08:17 PM
there's a very interesting debate going on at toymods at the moment... comparing 20v heads and 16v heads.
late model GZE bottom end is identical to the silvertop 20v.... except for pistons.
The blacktop 20v bottom end is further lightened for less rotational inertia. Weaker in ultra high reving and force induction applications but great in naturally aspirated form.... i constanly rev my blacktop over 8000rpms on the track and it hasnt blown apart on me yet....
Yes... i'm pro 20v's.... but thats probably cuz i havent been beaten by a 16v yet.... http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif
Maybe i'll change my mind when i do... or maybe i'll just work it even harder!! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/cool.gif

monkeymajik
30th May 2005, 11:50 PM
Originally posted by upgarage@May 30 2005, 06:47 PM
bigport head on gze bottom end apparently better
Couldnt you just use a bigport GZE? Or is the n/a bigport head different to the AFM/bigport gze head?

mr2drift
31st May 2005, 12:04 AM
Originally posted by Funkdoc.@Jun 3 2005, 01:17 PM
there's a very interesting debate going on at toymods
Yes... i'm pro 20v's.... but thats probably cuz i havent been beaten by a 16v yet.... http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif
Maybe i'll change my mind when i do... or maybe i'll just work it even harder!! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/cool.gif
care to have a friendly run at the track/strip sometime soon to see how the 20v stacks up to my 16v? would be interesting as my car is definately not setup for these things but would love to see the results anyway....

let me know.... http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif

DRFT - 86
31st May 2005, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by monkeymajik+May 30 2005, 10:50 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-upgarage@May 30 2005, 06:47 PM
bigport head on gze bottom end apparently better
Couldnt you just use a bigport GZE? Or is the n/a bigport head different to the AFM/bigport gze head? [/b]
yeh......isnt the bigport gze the same as the NA bigport....?

verm69
31st May 2005, 02:50 PM
personally, i prefer the GZE (mainly coz i have one) as you can get low down torque from them but not from the 20v, BUT! you get better high rev torque from the standard 20v than the standard GZE, as the GZE just drops off... real quick... but i've read that the reason the gze is good is that to fill the drop at high revs is add some adjustable cam gears, but it's alot harder (not sure if you even can) to get low down torque from the 20v.

But i'm not dissing the 20v, they're good, otherwise they wouldn't be in D1!

but deffenatly the GZE

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

(corect me if i'm wrong on any of this http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif )

halifax
31st May 2005, 04:03 PM
^^ yeh how do u fill in that gap down below on the 20v?

DRFT - 86
31st May 2005, 04:24 PM
how much of a difference does it make , when you use the bigport NA cam gears on the Gze......?

verm69
31st May 2005, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by halifax@May 31 2005, 03:03 PM
^^ yeh how do u fill in that gap down below on the 20v?
you don't. thats why the gze is good. you can fill up the top end rev problem, but on a 20v you can't... from what i've herd

i.e. Because of the supercharger on mine i can get 10psi from idle to redline

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
31st May 2005, 05:22 PM
MR2Drift... i'd love to mate... it'll be real interenting to see what happens.... however, i doubt it'll ba anytime soon... i lost my license and i'm still waiting for some parts for my car.... realistically... i think 2-3 months would be ideal... i still wont have my license by then but we can do it at willowbank drags or something so we can compare times and et's etc.... it'll be much more worthwhile and informative.... i'll keep u posted!!

As for the low down torque on a na car... theres no way of improving that greatly. Torque is very related to the capacity of the engine and no matter what u do... its very difficult to get much more than 110nm per 1000cc capacity on normal fuel.... Thats the beauty of 16v and 20v, when modified, u can move the peak torque much higher up in the rev range, creating more horse power.

Theres a lot of people sayin torque is everything... i beleive its a yes n no situation ey... because if u have heaps of torque and no horsepower...the car still wont be fast. Example BMW X5...in 3.0 petrol and 3.0 turbo diseal one has 300nm of torque the other more than 400nm...yet the petrol one is still faster!

BTW.. F1 cars produce less torque than a commodore ss... yet it can do the 1/4 mile in less than 7 secs...

I havent got the specs but i'm sure even a formular atlantic engine wouldnt make much more torque than a 16v engine....but it does produce peak torque at some very high rev range...thus generating huge horse power for the capacity....

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
31st May 2005, 05:30 PM
The way to get past the no bottom end torque problem in a 20v and a 16v is to down change! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif

verm69
31st May 2005, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by Funkdoc.@May 31 2005, 04:30 PM
The way to get past the no bottom end torque problem in a 20v and a 16v is to down change! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif
ha ha! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

like the way you think!

i do agree with funkdoc, torque isn't everything, but i think it'll help slide, if you have no torque you wheels are less likely to spin because they aren't pulling as hard, but a torque full car isn't necessarily the fastist. but the lack of torque is a bit of a down for the 20 and 16... or is it?

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
31st May 2005, 06:29 PM
Yea... for sure... havin more torque every where would definatly make wheel spinning (drifting) a much easier task. But at the same time, easier doesnt necessaily mean better... some people like the challenge of havin to get everything spot on... If ur weight shift/entry speed isn't near perfect.... u dont drift.... simple as that!

Thats the beauty of it, cuz its more difficult, u need to be more precise and know ur car better and drive it harder...!

For people who understand that fact... i'm sure they'll show more respect to the under powered car!!

RESPECT!!! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

mr2drift
31st May 2005, 11:12 PM
Originally posted by Funkdoc.@Jun 4 2005, 11:29 AM
Yea... for sure... havin more torque every where would definatly make wheel spinning (drifting) a much easier task. But at the same time, easier doesnt necessaily mean better... some people like the challenge of havin to get everything spot on... If ur weight shift/entry speed isn't near perfect.... u dont drift.... simple as that!

Thats the beauty of it, cuz its more difficult, u need to be more precise and know ur car better and drive it harder...!

For people who understand that fact... i'm sure they'll show more respect to the under powered car!!

RESPECT!!! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif
spot on ! the guy who built my engine set it up like a circuit car and it had BULK torque but was lagging up top, we retuned and lost a little of the overall torque, but gained top end and revs and it is 1000% better for drifting. BUT if i was to use it a , say a street spints type car it wouldve been quicker on a track the way it was, not now, now is better for drift. depends on what you want your car to do........

verm69
1st June 2005, 11:28 AM
Originally posted by Funkdoc.@May 31 2005, 05:29 PM
Yea... for sure... havin more torque every where would definatly make wheel spinning (drifting) a much easier task. But at the same time, easier doesnt necessaily mean better... some people like the challenge of havin to get everything spot on... If ur weight shift/entry speed isn't near perfect.... u dont drift.... simple as that!

Thats the beauty of it, cuz its more difficult, u need to be more precise and know ur car better and drive it harder...!

For people who understand that fact... i'm sure they'll show more respect to the under powered car!!

RESPECT!!!Â# http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif
yeah, think it's all just personal preference! i don't do anything to my car because OTHER people like it http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

I just realized a downfall of the gze! Most drift is done in the top end of the rev range

looks like i gotta get me some cam gears! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

Medwin_3sGTE_AE86
2nd June 2005, 11:48 PM
Although i haven't personally tried it my self... but i think its pretty difficult to get top end from a superchager... its in its nature to loose efficiency at the top end of the rev range. The power required to drive the supercharger becomes ineffective compared to the amount of air pumped out.
There is however a variable vane supercharger that helps in this regard...but if ur going to go the effort...may as well turbo the thing... then u wont have much problem... a well setup turbo system has very lil lag... and would kill the s/c in power output....

dori_86
24th July 2005, 03:07 AM
just a bit of a diverge....

what engine is more suited to drifting? (minus going the turbo conversion)
&
what engine is usually the most reliable?

Poobrown86
24th July 2005, 12:48 PM
why is nobody talking about 3sge 's. that would most certainly fix the problem of low end torque, and well built you can still rev it to the moon baby.

reason being i am doing the swap. either going to to a 20V or the 3SGE. want to keep atmo, and under 2L (for racing too)

Daniel-AE86
24th July 2005, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by atmo_drift@Jul 28 2005, 05:48 AM
why is nobody talking about 3sge 's.Â# that would most certainly fix the problem of low end torque, and well built you can still rev it to the moon baby.

reason being i am doing the swap. either going to to a 20V or the 3SGE.Â# want to keep atmo, and under 2L (for racing too)
As the topic states: 20v v gze

Poobrown86
25th July 2005, 10:46 AM
my Mistake, Sorry....

20V is better for the driver, who enjoys having to drive the car, not just steer. i know its been said before, but its true.

decoyslikecurves
30th July 2005, 01:37 PM
the gze is more suited to drift because of its mid range torque. the 20v has a very narrow sweet spot and feels a lot like a 16v but with a little more zing up the top. For this reason the gze is a faster motor and more suited to drift. However experienced drivers enjoy the narrow powerband of the 20v.

The gze is stronger than the 20v, the block and components are thicker, however the 20v is newer. If you had 2 brand new engines I woulod say the gze is stronger. It can handle big turbos. the 20v cant.

dori_86
30th July 2005, 01:50 PM
cheers for the info. i was pretty certain the gze would be better for drifting due to the supercharger, greater torque, and strong internals. i just didn't know the benefits of the 20v

b1gb3n
26th August 2005, 03:46 AM
gze can never replace the extasy of the 20v quads screaming its tits off above 5000RPM http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

verm69
26th August 2005, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by dori_86@Jul 30 2005, 12:50 PM
cheers for the info. i was pretty certain the gze would be better for drifting due to the supercharger, greater torque, and strong internals. i just didn't know the benefits of the 20v
they're good, but like said before... you just have to look out for the shy-zen top end, you can really feel it. but the bottom end tarque makes up for it http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

dori_86
26th August 2005, 05:27 PM
whats the shy-zen top end?

Poobrown86
26th August 2005, 07:04 PM
gze can never replace the extasy of the 20v quads screaming its tits off above 5000RPM


WHY ONLY 5000RPM rev to 8000 all day,,,,, then bang. but i do agree on the gze being stronger built. but if you want to stay down in the litres (ie for CAMS rules superchargers get 1.7 multiplied to them) go the 20V..


http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif

verm69
29th August 2005, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by dori_86@Aug 26 2005, 04:27 PM
whats the shy-zen top end?
after a certin amount of revs it stops pulling (you can feel it real bad... Trust me), so the top end of the rev range is siht, but only for about 500-1000 rmp... http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/dry.gif
but the bottom of the range makes up for it 10 fold