CA18det vs sr20det vs 4agte into ae86

[tipper86]

Just curious on what everyone thinks is a better setup. I've currently got the 4agte setup in my car but am unsure if I should keep the car toyota or go outside the boundaries and go nissan. Currently, the 4agte in my sprinter should be good for at least 200rwhp on mild to moderate boost. As I like the idea of keeping the car all original and toyota, the nissan motors have more aftermarket support and currently seem more appealing. The power figure that I am chasing is around the 240-260rwhp mark. I know the nissan motors can do this fairly simple and easy with stock internals, however the toyota motor would need slightly more work to get to the power mark that I want.

Do I sell my 4agte setup and start a fresh?, do I go outside the box and get a nissan motor and turn the car into short wheel base s13?
As I am not yet 100% sure on keeping the car after the car comes out of the panel shop, I would be very interested in selling it. Just curious on what would be the better setup to sell the car with a nissan or a toyota motor?

As the 4agte setup would not cost anything to keep in the car, and by myself selling the complete setup it will be funding the nissan engine.

[slide86]

i think the reason most people go ca18det is because of its cheaper then building a 4agte, or building it properly atleast.

i think you should keep it 4agte, there isnt many out there

[upgarage]

ca18det is cheap power with a decent box
you cant build a decent 4agte with a strong box for the same price

[DRFTAE86]

If your gonna sell it, just keep the current engine setup. If i went to the effort of putting in a Nissan engine, i'd want to admire the effort taken.

[dori_86]

i was wondering if you guys could help. i've been wanting to do a 4AGZE swap when i get the money, i had always just written off the ca18det idea as i thought it would cost too much! if anyone has done it (especially in SA) could you give me a quick price quote and who you used and what else you upgraded such as brakes, diff etc.

[CAE86]

up here in qld it usually costs around the $5k mark to get a CA18det installed into a sprinter. My install is costing closer to $7k but I am also including an lsd and suspension as well. Ring around a couple of workshops that specialise in silvias/nissan engines and talk to them.

[DRFTAE86]

There was a bit of discussion about the cost of putting in a c18det into a AE86 in this thread. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/in...p?showtopic=143 (http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=143)
Look in the last few pages. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[evil86]

PUT SUMFIN WIT GREAT POWER SO U CAN ADMIRE what U HAV DONE TO IT OK

[tipper86]

my mate has a ugly rb25 sprinter in QLD that runs a 10.89@132mph 1.9060fts Thats just abit too much over kill, however he is chasing more power which should put him in the 500rwhp mark, he will be running at the jamboree with a new paint job body work and so fourth, thinking 9's may be on the cards.
He agrees with the nissan idea, however he is abit of a Git when desecrating cars as he mixes and matches motors to most cars 2jz 180sx with a GT51R so fourth, s14a VH45DETT twin GT35/40's, I have photos off all these cars if anyone is interested in having a look. Or they can wait to see these cars run at the Jamboree.

[sic86]

I would go a SR20DET being as they are more popular and there is so many tuning/aftermarket parts out there for them.

Cheers

[slide86]

Originally posted by tipper86@Jul 30 2005, 09:55 AM
my mate has a ugly rb25 sprinter in QLD that runs a 10.89@132mph 1.9060fts Thats just abit too much over kill, however he is chasing more power which should put him in the 500rwhp mark, he will be running at the jamboree with a new paint job body work and so fourth, thinking 9's may be on the cards.
He agrees with the nissan idea, however he is abit of a Git when desecrating cars as he mixes and matches motors to most cars 2jz 180sx with a GT51R so fourth, s14a VH45DETT twin GT35/40's, I have photos off all these cars if anyone is interested in having a look. Or they can wait to see these cars run at the Jamboree.
yeah that sprinter is nuts

i loved it at the jamboree when i think it was one of the commentators says.
"they dont call them a sprinter for nothing" hahahaha http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[DRFT - 86]

What would be the weight of each motor be around

- 4agte...

-Ca8Det...

-Sr20Det...

Im leaning towards the 4agte at the moment because of the simplicity of the swap into the 86.... ie: no mods to mounts, gearbox ect... plus I plan to wack the gze in and boost around in that untill I save enough for the snail conversion.... as well I believe it would be better balanced and suited to the sprinter......

[decoyslikecurves]

I like the idea of 4agte... Its different to the mirriad of sr's and ca's out there, and I imagine it would be hilarious to see the expressions on peoples faces when they find they had their ass handed to them on a platter by a 1.6.

I would keep it toyota, but thats just me. Its like putting a 2j in a gtr. The 2j is a great motor but so is the rb26.
the sr/ca is a great motor but so is the 4ag

[tipper86]

Id assume the 4agte and the CA18det would weigh the same, however the sr20 would be creeping with abit more weight even though it is a alloy block.
Decoys is definately on the money, however with the nissan aftermarket support and how parts are so common, the CA18/SR20 seems like a much better idea. With the extra power which can be made by the nissan motors why not use that to your advantage, im looking at it from cost to power point of view. However, I will be keeping my motor 4agte now as, I have already got it.

[sprinter]

240rwhp can be made from a standed 4agze engine. i know of a 4agze motor with a skyline turbo running 14psi, mircotech, xf tb and made just over 200rwhp. with a better designed turbo, more boost you could make 240. if you want more all you will really need to do is head work as the bottom end can take a bit and are cheap too replace too. as for putting in a ca or sr you will have to spend more money to change suspension now the front end is heavier, unless your not worried about that, the only advantage i can see for putting a ca or sr in is if you want more torque than the 4a can provide.

[DRFTAE86]

'Sprinter'.... Denis, is that you?

[DRFT - 86]

Originally posted by decoyslikecurves@Jul 31 2005, 11:58 AM
I like the idea of 4agte... Its different to the mirriad of sr's and ca's out there, and I imagine it would be hilarious to see the expressions on peoples faces when they find they had their ass handed to them on a platter by a 1.6.
Yeh, damn straight.... cant wait to shame some people with a 1.6.... its not gona smoke all competion but Im sure its gona be quite a lil weapon when conbined with the lightness of the 86, esecially after a lil more weight strippen.

[tipper86]

with a aftermarket ECU a easy 210rwhp can be made, however as the internals are fairly strong in the AGZE. The sr20's can see up to 380rwhp without being cracked open, but most guys will argue that their rods will bend, their pistons will crack, and big ends will dissapear(however cams, cam gears and a mild port will be required). If anyone remembers a dunger of a red stanza that does huge wheel stands at the jamboree last year, and runs 10.40@136 is running a standard, rebuilt red top bottom end, no gas on C16. fairly damn impressive
The decision is easy when trying to achieve more power as I have worked out the power to weight ratio, a car with sub 1000 wet weight with power of 220-240rwhp should run a easy 12. However, as the AGZE's lack in torque, head work will be definately required.
In the next few weeks if my car doesnt sell, it will be seeing a rebuild with new bearings, linishing and cyro treat crank and rods.
I will be running re-ground cams and some vernier cam gears and a Microtech LTX8, as well as extensive head and port work.
The current turbo I have is good for 215rwkw in a rb25, as it runs a 49mm inducer front, a larger rear exhaust housing from a VG30. This turbo is larger than a GT28RS disco potato(46.1mm) however the only down fall to it is, the ceramic shaft and rear wheel. As this turbo is being bolted onto a 1.6ltr, I can run a lot more boost through it than a rb25 could. Im trying to push 22+psi through the turbo into achieving the power I want to make which is the power mentioned above.

[DRFT - 86]

Just a point of interest on torque from a 1.6L - Theres an old issue of Hot4's with a silver mirage on the cover.... anyway.

Its got a 1.6L Mivec motor with a wipple SC bolted on... now it makes something like 210-220Hp @ the wheels.... but the torque is 740 something Nm......... thats pretty amazing, the boost isnt even that high either.

back on topic.

[upgarage]

high compression + boost = very torquey
quite a few sr20de's over here with turbos strapped on putting out great numbers(ie. 275rwhp) and reliable too

[sprinter]

Originally posted by DRFTAE86@Jul 31 2005, 01:02 PM
'Sprinter'.... Denis, is that you?
no

[tipper86]

Originally posted by upgarage@Jul 31 2005, 02:34 PM
high compression + boost = very torquey
quite a few sr20de's over here with turbos strapped on putting out great numbers(ie. 275rwhp) and reliable too
thats the logic of it, even the v8 boys know this and seem to use it to their advantage every chance they get. And with that mirage, I think it would be a typo as it is really hot 4's magazine, and they really wouldn't know the difference between a spoon and a cam shaft, but could tell you the difference of the magenta and purple pearl and X racing body kit on that excel.

[DRFT - 86]

nah dont think it was a typo in this instance as it was/is a fairly high profile car... and the main bias to the story was the fact that it made so much power... (not sure but I think there were even dyno papers showing this)

...............................

[RobertoX]

i dont understand why people need so much power to have fun in their cars???

i went in a boonger gze last night, that was PLENTY quick for me

and my 4kc still beat it in the hills...

a 4agte should be capable of 14's which is pretty darn quick

[[MET]]

you gotta ask the question what are you building the car for? cause my old 100kw 4AGE whooped my mates slightly modded 180sx in the twisties but he was 1-2sec quicker in a straight line, for me im into a car to "tackle the corners!" not a ridiculous 400hp turbo sprinter that smokes them up off the line to 3rd gear and gets beaten by magnas!! LOL but im happy with a midly modified 4AGE 16v that can handle like a go-kart http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif

[upgarage]

i like a bit of power and handling too
best of both worlds imho

[Daniel-AE86]

The best conversion i have seen so far that didnt effet handling was a
4agze with a hks gt25 and cams( dont remenber but boost started at 1700rpm), running a 4age throttle body. Gearbox was running straight gears in first and second. The brakes where only upgrade to JDM spec. The master cylinder has been rebuilt.

response, handling and power all in one

im not going to comment on nissan engines because i dont know much about them,

[upgarage]

what susp is it running though

[NickAE86]

i have more fun in my 4age daily than my 4agte. n/a is a different kind of fun...more addictive http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[decoyslikecurves]

I just re-thought my morals on the topic. I agree with truenosedan.

I would have none. Give me n/a revs and power anyday over a crappy hairdryer.
The n/a part of the car makes it fun to drive. If you want a drag car buy something turbo. windy mountain roads aren't about turbos.

Why put a sr20 in a hachi when you could just buy a silvia. stronger chassis, more aftermarket crap, no rust etc etc.

I like na

[Daniel-AE86]

the suspension is stock.

Bit off topic
Handling gets messed up by upgrading brakes(greater unsprung weight can detract from the handling). (if your spending 5000 just on brakes, there are better options like carbon fibre brake discs and pads - www.strangeengineering.net, at 2kg for the front and 1.5 for the rear, this is also a factory option from porsche)

Also the height and how close the engine is to the firewall and the weight of the engine and gearbox.

Suspension wont do miracles if the chassie is not prepered for that extra weight.In most cases.

so CA18det vs sr20det vs 4agte, personaly a modified 4agte is great all arounder
If s2000 half cuts where cheap, i would say yes to that.

for drag racing 20bt, 2jz

for drifting: any det, 13bt, maybe a 3sgte

[DRFT - 86]

I like whiplash inducing boost..... but also love taking the 4age to 8 G in NA form........ untill I can afford otherwise its NA for now.

[Daniel-AE86]

for eg, do you really think this will handle well in corners

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/77009.jpg




suited for drifting http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/77011.jpg


FJ20 a good allrounder but costs $$$$$$$$4(note the snail)
http://dut619.com/misc/22.JPG

[DRFT - 86]

Wtf.... that top pic.... overboard styles.... I like the Sr20 option... that last pic looks like an S2000 motor with a big ass snail.... not FJ..?
I want a boosted 4age.... best suited in my opinion for the 86 chassis over other turbo options..

[tipper86]

totally understandable when it comes to keeping a motor N/A, I know the clubman boys are true to this and have a mate that swears by a N/A motor in a fraser clubman. His motor is a black top 20v, motec m4 rar rar making 240flywheel hp. But the thing is he has spent well over 20k on the motor alone. But when chasing subsequently more power top range and alot more raceable midrange you can't beat a forced motor. At the end of the day the car is being built as a everyday street car, with alot of thrashing on weekends AAA sprint meets, Skid pans, and wed/saturday test and tunes. Alot of more fun comes when the car is built to do all area's of racing.


and btw last picture in Daniel-AE86 post is not a FJ20, as you can see its actually a s2000 motor with a supercharger. I was thinking why the motor was slightly on a angle, and you can see that it is not actually a nissan motor but a honda motor with a supercharger (setup similar to that of d1 driver Terasaki's (ASM) s2000, comptech etc)

[Daniel-AE86]

Originally posted by tipper86@Aug 11 2005, 03:47 AM
and btw last picture in Daniel-AE86 post is not a FJ20, as you can see its actually a s2000 motor with a supercharger. I was thinking why the motor was slightly on a angle, and you can see that it is not actually a nissan motor but a honda motor with a supercharger (setup similar to that of d1 driver Terasaki's (ASM) s2000, comptech etc)
sorry, its a f20c1. s2000 is not the name of the engine.

also i dont think the same way about NA's. I mean, if its for daily driving its economical and fun, but if you want to be serious and competive, i would say that if you wanted 230hp out of the 4age it could cost you more than swaping for another engine that can produce that horsepower easily and be more realible at the same time, cheaper with greater torque, the money you would spend just on cams alone is not worth it.
Offcourse people that have spend alot of $$ on their NA 4ag will never admit this.

[tipper86]

s2000 = model of the car if you wanted me to be more specific, I would of said its a F20C

[DRFT - 86]

we picked up on the mistake coz u put a 'J' in that engine code

[screech]

Originally posted by decoyslikecurves@Aug 10 2005, 01:32 PM
I just re-thought my morals on the topic. I agree with truenosedan.

I would have none. Give me n/a revs and power anyday over a crappy hairdryer.
The n/a part of the car makes it fun to drive. If you want a drag car buy something turbo. windy mountain roads aren't about turbos.
must agree, the sound of a NA revving engine soothes the soul and inspires great driving.

i watched a DVD with an 86 in it with an unusual enige transplant.

it had an F20C in it, the 2L from the Honda S2000. (very pricey)

alternatively, you could try and do a Vtech honda D16A conversion.

[Daniel-AE86]

Originally posted by tipper86@Aug 11 2005, 08:25 AM
s2000 = model of the car if you wanted me to be more specific, I would of said its a F20C
s2000 is technically wrong because these cars came with a 2litre and a 2.2litre.
I woulden call a silvia engine a silvia engine because of the different engine codes

[upgarage]

Originally posted by Daniel-AE86@Aug 7 2005, 06:26 PM
I woulden call a silvia engine a silvia engine because of the different engine codes
nice contradicting statement there
who gives a sh1t anyway http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

you were wrong calling it a fj20 as it is clearly not so admit your wrong and get over it

[Daniel-AE86]

Originally posted by upgarage+Aug 11 2005, 03:12 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-Daniel-AE86@Aug 7 2005, 06:26 PM
I woulden call a silvia engine a silvia engine because of the different engine codes
nice contradicting statement there
who gives a sh1t anyway http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

you were wrong calling it a fj20 as it is clearly not so admit your wrong and get over it [/b]
I know, but its not an s2000 engine either. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

[upgarage]

how is it not an s2000 engine?

[Daniel-AE86]

I give up, you won kid

[RobertoX]

lol

some people r0ll eyes

look at the latest drift comps

crab 4agze - running 5 psi about 70rwkw
simon 20v - 75 rwkw down on torque compared to ze
joel - 16v - 70rwkw

i dont see any big turbos there??????????????

crab won at qld ffs, a track notorious for needing power

so all the people making cross bred cars, i think you should take a leaf out of their book, or learn how to drive....

end rant

[.wolfwood]

my 4agte with a shitty small ass t2 turbo on it makes 190rwhp on 8psi with a motec m48.

so its not really hard to get power outs of a 4agte. plus my little turbo only goes through the first half of the rev range.

and yeah for drift skill is probably more important than having a hight powered car.

[Daniel-AE86]

Originally posted by truenosedan@Aug 12 2005, 06:41 AM
lol

some people r0ll eyes

look at the latest drift comps

crab 4agze - running 5 psi about 70rwkw
simon 20v - 75 rwkw down on torque compared to ze
joel - 16v - 70rwkw

i dont see any big turbos there??????????????

crab won at qld ffs, a track notorious for needing power

so all the people making cross bred cars, i think you should take a leaf out of their book, or learn how to drive....

end rant
Thats the good thing about ae86, you dont need much to get them drifting.

But, crab has spend less money than simon's and produces more torque. Also crab doesnt need to rev it to the infinity.
crab is stock, simon's is not.
I think i said enough.

[RobertoX]

simons is a stock 20v with an excellent exhuast care of raceflo, and thats about it and i saw the dyno sheets today, it makes 89.2kw at the wheels

i think you will find crab spent more than simon, crab original set up with twin spot brakes and lsd etc wasnt cheap

crab has a pulley kit and an exhuast, and a fmic it normally pushes 11psi, on the weekend it was making 5psi! and he still won!!!!!!!!!11111111 as a wildcard

[Daniel-AE86]

Originally posted by truenosedan@Aug 12 2005, 04:23 PM
simons is a stock 20v with an excellent exhuast care of raceflo, and thats about it and i saw the dyno sheets today, it makes 89.2kw at the wheels

i think you will find crab spent more than simon, crab original set up with twin spot brakes and lsd etc wasnt cheap

crab has a pulley kit and an exhuast, and a fmic it normally pushes 11psi, on the weekend it was making 5psi! and he still won!!!!!!!!!11111111 as a wildcard
so what are you saying? 20v have more hp and torque than a ze. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif


Also i was refering just to the amount of money spend on the engine which in this case the 20v usually costs more. I never understood why people opt for 20v instead of the over engineered ze. Iven the old 16v have a better block.

89.2kw on a stock engine http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/blink.gif , theres something wrong with the dyno.

[slide86]

Originally posted by truenosedan@Aug 8 2005, 12:41 PM
lol

some people r0ll eyes

look at the latest drift comps

crab 4agze - running 5 psi about 70rwkw
simon 20v - 75 rwkw down on torque compared to ze
joel - 16v - 70rwkw

i dont see any big turbos there??????????????

crab won at qld ffs, a track notorious for needing power

so all the people making cross bred cars, i think you should take a leaf out of their book, or learn how to drive....

end rant
amen to that http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[tipper86]

lol some funny stuff, would have never thought it would of caused such a shit stir regarding car/engine models. Not long to go now, hopefully in 2-3 weeks car will get put on the dyno to see how much hp it will spin http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif.

[KE70Drifter]

When i was in SA in march one of his mates said its probably making about 100+rwkw on 11psi. So i dont know if its changed since then. Simons car is a lush looking machine and 89rwkw aint bad at all.

[RobertoX]

yes it should make about that, but the super charger or some shit reamed up limiting it to 5 psi! and he STILL won!!

[Dropnuts]

this is an interesting topic

agree with wolfwood and power on AGTE

but it depends on what you want the car for

lets look at JEM in syd here that has his own car fully built with 4A making in the vicinity of 280rwkw and runs a 10

thats a daily driver

so yeah it can make power but you will sacrifce torque and obviously lag!!

but in saying that you can make 200rwhp with no lag via turbo as long as you make a setup that works it's really not that hard to do but research aim and know what you want to make

obviously if you don't want to do it properly then you will have lag in that case ie. just sticking a big snail and making power without thinking that your not going to make boost till 6k

but in that sense ca again isn't a bad idea only because of the more potenial that I can have and easier to make power


it comes down to what you want to do with the car and why and how your going to use it


RANT OVER

[bahnugget]

farrr out! way to bring up an old thread!

[Dropnuts]

:)

I couldnt resist to have my say as I'm currently looking at doing the exact same thing!!!!

mite bring up some more interesting things and what people have done experienced??

[biggo]

holy dead thread batman!!!!!!!

[rthy]

well... at least he did a search?

[awang]

could'nt agree more, this is better than asking the same question but in a new thread

[tipper86]

f**k way to dig up a old thread, a bit of a update on this.

the 4agte setup is currently up for grabs if anyone wants it

Cheers :D

[flamingheads]

so what did you end up going with?

[tipper86]

I still have the 4agte, as I stripped the car. it's currently up for sale, however there is a lot of interest but there has not been anymoney transfered into my hands.

[hara_kiri]

go ca!

[Gilly]

:lol: didn't you pull the CA out to put in an SR Rob? :P

[rileymoore05]

I actually have shared car with a mate which is a ca18det powered s12 gazzle and it makes plenty of power in stock form, BUT.
the thing is far from reliable.
I'm in the process of re-building the engine now and they are not the best built thing in the world too say the least.
they suffer from big oiling problems, especailly in a drift car.
it took 2 drift days too destroy a perfectly good engine due too oiling issues.
not taking away from the fact they make good power, but they need too be built for the purpose or they cause big trouble.
on a side note, engine weights were also discussed.
I'm not shure of the excat figures, but having lifted both my 7agte and a ca18det in the same day I can say the ca is much heavyier.
feels about the same weight as my 1GGTE.

[mikewestphoto]

same oiling problems as rb? pumps much oil into head without adequate return?

[rileymoore05]

yep!
excatly.
cost me no2 bigend at wakefeild park 2 weeks ago.
fills the cam covers and leaves nothing for the pickup.
usually fixed by putting a restrictor in the oil feed too the head and by cleaning up all the shitty casting around the return in the block or putting in a external drain too the sump.

[hara_kiri]

nup and now I got 3 ca cars haha, one still ca18de while I rebuild one of the spare turbo ca motors I have haha

I was lookin for ya dave when I was at the airport yesterday ha

[Dropnuts]

well I surely set this topic off again

yeah CA has the same common problem as rb26 for oil feed issues and that also because the CA is an exact replica of the RB26 motor but in a smaller form

but as stated many ways to fix that issue if you are going to be using it as a track car!!

daily is certainly doesn't seem to be an issue and can handle a thrashing every now and then without that issue with a fair amount of power

[Hally]

What would be the weight of each motor be around

- 4agte...

-Ca8Det...

-Sr20Det...

I'm leaning towards the 4agte at the moment because of the simplicity of the swap into the 86.... ie: no mods to mounts, gearbox ect... plus I plan to wack the gze in and boost around in that untill I save enough for the snail conversion.... as well I believe it would be better balanced and suited to the sprinter......[/b]


http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Garage/8422/4age.htm

that site has weights of the sr and the 4age not sure of ca wouldnt be much diferent to sr20 1 would think :2thumbs: