16V vs. 20V

[sic86]

Well the question is which is better? 16V or 20V? Is one stronger than the other? Is one faster than the other? Is one more easier to get parts for than the other? Is one easier to fit than the other? Is one easier to work on than the other?

I currently have a JDM 4AGE Series 1 and am looking at getting it rebuilt or just drop in a 20v.

Cheers

[GTVAE86]

Well I am going to rebuild my JDM engine when the time arrives. You can get the power you want out of a JDM engine, just a little work and money.

But if I need to change the block in the future I will get the AE92 block.

[mikes86]

i would have to say the 20v would be a better engine mainly because its newer. But im a little biast because ive got the shits with my 16v. Wheres all the people with stats and numbers?

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

If u fully work both heads and run similar duration cams, compression etc.. the peak power output would be pretty similar. But in stock or mild trim, the 20v would have a wider torque band and higher power output. I personally think the 20v should have a slightly wider torque band with or without the vvt system in place.

Since u already have a 16v... i think it would be wise to spend the converson money on some quads, pistons, rods, cams, head work, raised compression and a good ecu..... i think that will be spending ur money more wisely......

[mattysshop]

the earlier 'bigport' (aside from the MR2 version, and early AE92 version with the 7 rib/bigport combo) 16v motors are said to be weaker because of the smaller big ends (40mm) and gudgion pins (18mm)..and they say the 3 rib block is weaker than the 7 rib block..the later 'smallport' motors have the 7 rib block, with it's bigger internals.. 42mm big ends, and 20mm gudgeon pins (all GZE, and 20V share these) 20V have lighter rods, there are alot of minute differences between the 100kw and GZE rods, but for arguments sake we will say there the same (as in size of big ends etc)..

on one hand the earlier motors are weaker, but because they have less internal mass, they feel as if they rev quicker than the 100kw generation..they overcame this with the 20V with it's lightend rods etc..

16V for me..i would like a 100KW smallport motor, with 20V rods, and quads (i'll see if i can get me some rods for project revs, they have a very nice rod..the 20V i mean http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif )..20valvers.. good in theory..but toyota quote them as 165-170hp (depending on sources) and the 100kw ones..well thats 134hp.. yet they seem to post very very similar dyno figures..yes yes i know dyno's can be fudged, and there not really a good gauge for power..but even on the drag strip..they post similar times to a 16V with the same mods..

Matty..

[Monster]

I guess what you have to ask yourself is "am i a hachi purist?"

Quads on a 16v, aftermarket ECU, big cams, strengthened internals, 9500rpm and 215hp

**OR**

Black top 20v, aftermarket ECU, big cams, 9000rpm and 200hp

In the end both engines have alot of dicking round to get them to this stage. 16v parts are very easy to get aftermarket performance parts for. Im in the middle of a BT 20v conversion, for the people who say that for the price of a 20v conversion you can make your 16v scream... I say:

PHOOEY!!!

20v conversions are easy and cheap... in saying that, if I had the choice again, I would rather go for a full house 16v, GZE crank/rods, TODA 12:1 pistons, 288/308 cams, MOTEC, EFI hardwares quadthrottle kit, blah blah blah

[sic86]

Is there differences with the ECU's between the 16v and 20v? And what about the manual and automatic ecu's?
The auto half cuts are cheaper than the manual halfcuts but there is no point becuase I thought the 20v only cam eout in FWD so the gearbox doesn't really matter.

Cheers

[mattysshop]

the 20V did only come out in FWD..the ecu for the 20V won't work on the 16V and vice versa..unless you use all the sensors, injectors, loom etc from the ecu to put onto the new motor..but then you need to work around the VVTi..so short ans NO you can't do it easily..

with the auto's i dunno if it's the simple case of wiring it so the ecu thinks it's in neautral all the time..which is simple engouh..i have heard that there are minor differences with the fuel maps and rev limiters, but for arguments sake i think you'll be fine with an auto front cut..and a bit of wiring sorted out..

Matty

[mattysshop]

just awnsered my own question befor..the 20V injectors are side feed...not top feed like the 16V..and the injector bosses are in the manifold..not the head like the 16V..so no i would say you can swap and change ecus between the motors..16V stuff for 16V's and 20v stuff for 20v's

[FilthinRich]

how much considerably cheaper are the 16V compared to the 20's?

[mikes86]

20v are about 750 at a good price 16v around 500 average

[ae86 slide]

as far as performance goes, my stock 20v is marginally quiker (nothing to get excited about) than drft86's 16v with ballanced bottom end, 1mm gasket and port work, both stripped.
his does seem to make power a bit earlier but the major thing holding his car back is the limiter set at 7250rpm, you can feel it wanting to go further.
hug the limiter, its your friend, hey jase.

[sic86]

I heard there are 3 things that are a pan when fitting the engine, that is the distributor, radiator piping and the intake. Does anyone know how ot get around this? Does anyone have a photo of a 20v fitted into a AE86?

Cheers

[ae86 slide]

no photos, but mine just has the standard inlet manifold with the air intake side of the manifold cut off and welded on to the forward facing side, and the hole welded up.
radiator piping is a bit of a bitch mine has about 2km of alloy piping, radiator hose and hose clamps and as for the distributor im unsure, i bought it with the conversion done, ill check it out wen there is some light

[sic86]

I got told that you have to run a aftermarket computer if you don't want to cut a whole in the firewall.
Anyone recommend where to get one fitted in QLD?

Cheers

[mikes86]

If you dont want to cut a hole in the firewall you will need to change position of the dizzy or run a twin coil system. Water pipes are another issue, and intake just run the quads with socks.

heres a basic 20v water pipeing, can be a whole lot neater but you get the picture

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/78162.jpg

[Monster]

This is what I did (pics up soon) I have a BT 20v, put a AE101 thermostat housing on the rear (as they are 10mm shorter) and blocked off the thermostat housing. Blocked off the old water outlet on the exhaust side, used a AE92 water pump with the rear end of a RWD water pump. It sound complicated but it works, plus there's no ugly water lines running everywhere. As far as the dizzy, just capped it off (to use the crank angle sensor) and everything clears the firewall by heaps.

As far as the ECU goes, im going to use the factory ECU just beacuse i want it on the road ASAP. Going to use a DLI converter (Direct Line Ignition) that runs off the crank angle sensor and runs GZE coils.

A very sinple, cheap setup to convert to 20v. Silver tops are harder because of the AFM, my suggestion, get a BT!!!

88kw 4AGE RWD $500- $1000

Silver top 4AGE $600- $1500

Black top 4AGE $1900- $2200

And so far the conversion has cost me... $700 http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

[crazy86]

Just to throw my 5c in, back on the question of which is "better", probably the strongest block is the 16v GZE, as it comes with forged pistons, etter crank etc, so if you start with GZE internals, you could *possibly* work an NA 16v to reliably produce better power than a worked 20V.

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

This is how i got around my problems with my 20v BT conversion. Capped of dizzy using the crank angle sensor as a trigger running aftermarket ecu. I'm using the std water inlets and outlets at the back by using a custom alum block with matched outlets. I think theres someone on this forum selling conversion kits now so the pluming wont be a hassel.

The heater core is bit more of a problem in mine as theres very little room to squeeze in the heater hoses. I ended up changing the angle of the heater hose outlets so theres more clearence.

Heres a link to some some pictures of my conversion.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/in...p?showtopic=231 (http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/index.php?showtopic=231)

Its not a real good picture but u can get a feel of whats been done.
Also... GZE motors are not the best for a NA setup ey... the compression is way too low.... and u really dont need forged pistons for a na setup unless ur going extreme. I personally think BT is the way to go as u wont need afm and u can run it off the map sensor.

Many N1 AE86's out there use a 20v bottom end matched to 16V/20V heads. Silver top bottom ends run similar bottom end to the map GZE except for pistons. BT bottom end is further lightened for less rotational inertia and faster reving.

I've been in a few stock 16v's with just filter and exhaust.... they got nothing on a stock 20v... once modified...it'll all depend on the level of modification... 2 engines with same capacity and bore n stroke, both with a good flowing head would be pretty similar in output. All depends what ur after. Its hard to say which is better as both engines can be tuned to a completely unstreetable level.

The best thing to do is to set a realistic goal and keep to it. For a street car thats driven on the road often.... chasin maximum peak hp is just unrealistic. I think for a street car.... aim for around 180-190hp with a fairly wide torque band. That can be achieved by both engines fairly easily while still being reliable.

[Monster]

AMEN!!!

[sic86]

Are all 20V imported? Can you still gets part for them easy?

Cheers

[Monster]

Yes, as they are only available in the AE101/AE111 Corolla levin/ Sprinter Trueno. I guess with everything, you have to know where to look.

[Wally]

this isnt really a helpful comment but god i reckon the 20v shits all over the 16v in the term of looks hehe...

i just love the loook of the 20v http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/ph34r.gif

[ae86 slide]

they rev like hyper-active squirrels to

[rthy]

I dont think a person should ever have cross-over water pipes or any sort of firewall mods when installing a 20V, see my worklog for how it can be avoided.

http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=m...tart=0&count=60 (http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&th=61010&prevloaded=1&rid=4385&S=573a8e831e0e3a17dd875dd70a214606&rev=&reveal=&start=0&count=60)

Oh also nice work Funkdoc, it looks great.

[eastcoastdrifter]

I have never did a conversion before but i was wondering is it hard to convert a FF engine to work with a FR Car ( Im sorry if this sounds dumb)

[mattysshop]

Originally posted by eastcoastdrifter@Oct 10 2005, 11:36 PM
I have never did a conversion before but i was wondering is it hard to convert a FF engine to work with a FR Car ( Im sorry if this sounds dumb)
depends on the engine..it's not hard to do at all..you just need to get a gearbox that bolts onto the block eg 4age 20v fwd..still a 4a block..so it will bolt onto a 4ac aussie sprinter box..if the motor was supplied both in fwd and rwd it makes it even easier cos you slap the rwd mount onto the fwd engine..they dont change the casting of the block just to make it fit the car..they change the mounts in the car to fit the motor..more cost effective to make 500000 engine mounts, than 500000 new blocks yeh? you'll find that most toyota motors in a previous generation were rwd or had a very similar mounts to a rwd setup..eg..3sge or a 3sgte out of a celica GT4..old sa63 celica with a 2s-c carby single cam motor..you can bolt those engine mounts on the 3s (little mods requried for 3sgte) use the sump for rwd application..and use the gearbox/bellhousing..

better get back to work, sorry guys!

Matty

[rthy]

to do it right it's not that easy matty, yeah sure the block is fine but nothing that bolts to the head wants to fit, like the exhaust, intake, water cooling system and the ignition system.

[sic86]

Originally posted by Mattysshop+Oct 11 2005, 07:33 AM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-eastcoastdrifter@Oct 10 2005, 11:36 PM
I have never did a conversion before but i was wondering is it hard to convert a FF engine to work with a FR Car ( Im sorry if this sounds dumb)
depends on the engine..it's not hard to do at all..you just need to get a gearbox that bolts onto the block eg 4age 20v fwd..still a 4a block..so it will bolt onto a 4ac aussie sprinter box..if the motor was supplied both in fwd and rwd it makes it even easier cos you slap the rwd mount onto the fwd engine..they dont change the casting of the block just to make it fit the car..they change the mounts in the car to fit the motor..more cost effective to make 500000 engine mounts, than 500000 new blocks yeh? you'll find that most toyota motors in a previous generation were rwd or had a very similar mounts to a rwd setup..eg..3sge or a 3sgte out of a celica GT4..old sa63 celica with a 2s-c carby single cam motor..you can bolt those engine mounts on the 3s (little mods requried for 3sgte) use the sump for rwd application..and use the gearbox/bellhousing..

better get back to work, sorry guys!

Matty [/b]
So are the engine mounts different? I thought they were the same. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/7/5/4/536981.jpg

Cheers

[mattysshop]

all 4a mounts fit all 4a engines..yeh the 20 valve is c C$%# with a few things such as rear water outlet, and dizzy..you can get a set of rwd 4AGE extractors to fit easy http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif just need to move the 1st and last hole a little further..

[Monster]

Will be writing an article on how to put in a 20v in a Hachi very soon, despite what people tell you:

* 4AC engine mounts fit but only with the RWD iron bracketa
* 20v bottom end casting is very different and will need some changing (read: grinding) for everything to fit.
* RWD water pumps do not fit unless fitted with a AE92 front
* BT are harder to put in than ST
* Water piping is easy
* Rear water outlet is even easier (i'll show you how to do it with no cutting or fabricating!!!)
* And use your head with the dizzy (ie mount it backward on the front of the cam/ run it of a toothed belt on the side of the engine blah blah)

Think of a 20v as a 16v on steroids; it has everything good about the 16v plus about 2000 more rpm and 3 more throttles!!!

[rthy]

hey loki could you please tell me what you mean by this:

"20v bottom end casting is very different and will need some changing (read: grinding) for everything to fit."

and also how it is that the BT ius harder than the ST, I would of thought it would be much easier.

[mattysshop]

you don't need to change the FWD 20v sump do ya?