Blacktop 20v: The road beyond 200hp

[86er]

Ok hi all let me introduce myself Im a regular on club4ag as Hatchi Freakin Roku, a name i still cant live down http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif anyway i have a levin coupe with a blacktop 20v and megasquirt which I am still in process of finishing, this is my 3rd ae86 Im not from US, Im in the Caribbean in a country called Barbados, so anyway thats just an intro to the topic at hand.

Now everysince I got on the 20v blacktop craze and started the swap I've been troubled, when guys first started megasquirtin these I was impressed by the resulting figures and it made sense to venture this road as a stock BT with open stacks, exhaust, and MS weregetting from 140-150ish at the wheels which i thought was great something a 16v honestly needs alot of work to acheive (not saying it cant reach that level) cuz i know better havin had 2 bigports before which were relatively stock. fter "jumpin on this band wagon" i started doin all kinds of research into modding the 20v further I discovered that after market support for the 20v pretty much suscks and honestly there is a huge Gray cloud surrounding the 20v and modding it WORLDWIDE!!!! Thats what all my research has led me too I dont think people truly realise the potential of the engines, But i must admit I myself am not sure of that FULL potential either, but nly few have tried and succeeded. Some would quckly jum to say that the Japanese have preoven the limit of the 20v but my findings lead me to suspect otherwise.

Anyway the purpose of this topic is to discuss and truley try to discover the potential of the blacktop mainly, the silvertop will also be covered as it applies at this level of tuning, but until u pic down the head and start fixing it it honestly doesnt compare to a blacktop. The latter silvertop is better though and closer to Blacktop.

So firstly my findings, below i will post linnks to various forums where either people have sucessfully developed th 20v or have thoroughly tested it in terms of mods and power gains to a point

WheelsJamaica.com these guys have truley proven with what are some very lengthy topics (one 25+ pages) what a 20v blacktop is made of and how well the stock motor responses to the right mods

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...p;topic=12990.0 (http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=209962fb0076d947ec1cdae2fe4a85 7d&topic=12990.0)

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...;topic=32929.40 (http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=209962fb0076d947ec1cdae2fe4a85 7d&topic=32929.40)

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...p;topic=45443.0 (http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=209962fb0076d947ec1cdae2fe4a85 7d&topic=45443.0)

http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/...p;topic=44599.0 (http://www.wheelsjamaica.com/wheels_forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=209962fb0076d947ec1cdae2fe4a85 7d&topic=44599.0)

there is a wealth of info in above links and real info instead of guessin
Now that confirms that a stock blacktop with proper velocity stacks, headers, and exhaust will produce around 140WHP now the test car is fwd which is probably why with same mods and a megasquirt people get 145ish-150whp as we have more drivetrain loss.

SO at 20% drivetrainloss people seem to average on a ae86 145whp is like 174 at crank. That to me is very impressive and motor has even been open yet.

Now this guy in Aussie has a very impressive BT

Originally posted by 20v_KE25
this is my KE-25 race car which is used mainly for club sprints. I bought the car for $300 through work as a trade in. it started off as a granny spec. 1200 which was quickly converted into a 4AGE 16 valve RWD with T50 and AE-86 disc break rear end with TRD lsd. Front brakes are series 4 RX7 with Saab 280mm rotors. The rears are 300ZX turbo with MX-73 rear discs. About 4 and a half years ago I decided to make the move up to a Black top 20 valve with a TRD close ratio gear set. The engine is still currently running stock ECU and has proven to be both reliable and very competitive, it hasnt lost a race in my class in about 4 and a half years and it holds the lap record for my class at Philip Island with a 1:54.33. At the recent Chasers dyno day organised by Glen (Celica RA45) it pulled out 121.4KW's at the rear wheels!! Here are some photos, doesn’t look too special to the eye but it does the job.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126446.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126447.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126448.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126449.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126450.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126451.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126452.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126453.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126454.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126455.jpg


"At the recent Chasers dyno day organised by Glen (Celica RA45) it pulled out 121.4KW's at the rear wheels!!"
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126456.jpg

that car is pumpin out over 190crank hp when you work it out. which is impressive with short mod list, my only explaination for his figures is one the race gas and 2 the electric water pump. But hell when i think about it JAPANESE n2 cars with fully built 20vs are usually said to be 200PS or so with same race gas, usually high duration cams high comp pistons, management, steel cranks etc etc. :confused:

Here in is where my problem with the japanese 20v developmant lies

example Tysuchia's(spellin) 86 has a trd bild blacktop with full exh management, wasted spark, and i think 272/288 cams high comp miata pistons(use to have toda) and tuning tunin and they CLAIM his I AM GAY car is 170PS thats bull i dont see anyway that car could be less tha 200hp based on all figures the assuies/americans and the rst of us are gettin. Thats less than what can expect on stock motor with a Megasquirt and bolt ons.

Here is a nice link from Garage annex site where the build th 20v N2 car's egine and dyno it at various stages and with various cams(personally i still find these figures a bit short)

translated
http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&am.../language_tools (http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&langpair=ja%7Cen&u=http://www7.airnet.ne.jp/annex/engin_seisakuki.htm&prev=/language_tools)
japanese original
http://www7.airnet.ne.jp/annex/engin_seisakuki.htm
in the end the get about 213ps with tODA　288°9mm lift IN and 304°9mm lift EX cams and built engine

also didnt reference the guy on club 4ag who used mr.John's high rise header on a stock balcktop (no management) and got 157whp (graph was posted on club4ag a while back)
heres a pic of header on Johns car
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126457.jpg


this is still invaluable info

now I perosnally think at this level of tune figures should exel well over 200hp in te 220-230crank hp range so i cant help but think something is wrong look at this

http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&am...hl%3Den%26lr%3D (http://64.233.179.104/translate_c?hl=en&sl=ja&u=http://www.interq.or.jp/world/satoru-w/&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dsatoru%2Bworks%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D)

Satoru Works drift ae86 20v 1600 produced 244PS thats sould more like it not sure figures of the 1800variant or the specs but if anyone has them please share i suspect they arent much different from most built 20vs in japan but maybe difference is in compression and cam lift.

I say lift becuz all the 200+ 4ag16s i see seem to run very high lift
Here
http://www.jtuned.com/content/templates/st...96&zoneid=1 (http://www.jtuned.com/content/templates/statics.aspx?articleid=496&zoneid=1)
the FA 16v by Hasselgren while cams are only 272 lift is 10+ and 11mm
Also I have a 86Super Tuning magazine here from japan where they cover the tec arts 16v which is 230ps also has very high lift cams in that same range, and 110mm velocity stacks on ae101 ITBS, doesnt say the compression ratio but all the tecarts cars have 230ps their drift car and n2 car and and all the cars with that spec engine have it. the show the build up of the motor in detail the magazine i will try to get some pics up.
Anywwway im suspectin that the lift has something to do with it, the only real choice in japan fr 20v cams is toda all there 20v cams are limited to 9mm lift, kelford makes some 20v cams and there highes race cam has like 10+mm lift http://www.camshaftshop.com/camshafts/view...oyota-camshaft/ (http://www.camshaftshop.com/camshafts/view/27/toyota-camshaft/) and a nice powerband while still under 300degrees duration
also Cat Cams makes some aswell in europe somewhere lol
with 11mm lift 291 duration http://www.aeu86.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t...ea05872b4a6c496 (http://www.aeu86.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4052&sid=ac2906a52918d9d44ea05872b4a6c496)
waiting to see final results for this motor

hell there was even a guy on club4ag the otherday with some mild 264cams and basic bolt ons in blacktop he was gettin like 160whp which is in 190+crank region still way more that the japs these were toda cams. So I call BS on the japanese 20vs except that satoru works guy. CAN anyone please post his specs if u have them. Thanks

Now For all you club4ag people who are here now lol MR.John from club4ag who drifts blue rolla recently posted that hasselgren has built a silvertop(yeh i know what i said but like i said at this level they are even as heads wuld both be ported out etc) for Taka Aono 2007 drift car. I consider him a reliable source and Im waiting too see the mtor in this comin year and more specs. ANY WAY ITS SUPPOSE TO BE 306HP at crank. I am personnally confident about this but time will tell.

LAtsly the new valvetrain from Barry (dot Racing) no info on improvements yet but about time oversize vales were on market.

now all this is well and good but whats the secret and the truh behind a heavily modded 20v an whats the recipe to push a reliable one pass the 200mark? thanks what i want to discuss.


Now i know with Na especially parts have to work together and produce power togther otherwise u will not make full power potential so please feel free to share opinions on any thing u think i list that would not add to setup and goal of 220-240hp+ at crank

Im thinking a blacktop base
kelford race cames 298duration 10+mm lift
12:1 compression(would prefer 13:1 but how reliable i know this is is controversal issue few venture so high)
dot racing oversize valves and spings and retainers
ported head
valve angle job
100mm-110mm velocity stacks to to open powerband
to keep down cost stock crank (unless a steel one is found at good deal)
forged rods or stock(people still got issues with stock BT rods)
high rise 4-1 header with 45mm primaries and 2.5" to exhaust
crank fire ignition
what size injectors??
balanced bottem end
Any theories on the intake flow anle as in having itbs angled up to same angle as intake or closer( not sure how much this helps as the formual Atlantic motor has a straight intake)
the very same electric water pump by craig davies to elimitate the water pulley and get some lighter pullies for others
The six speed AZ6 miata box the oldskweltoy is investigating as i too like 170bhp's 6spd 20v setup.
what am i forgettin?

ok and....... GO!!

[flamingheads]

It sounds like good info, not that I'll be affording a black top anytime soon.
But I was just thinking that wouldn't a highly modded 20v only make its power up at really high revs and at normal driving revs basically be like a stock motor with lumpy cams?

[ke70dave]

that was a pretty good read through all that, i think i understood it all http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

id be keen to hear how the megasquirt goes though, ive heard mixed impressions on this.

as for limits of black top 20V? no idea http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/crazy.gif

[gottago]

i went in a 20v ( silver top) with 100rwkw ( 134rwhp) and it didnt feel fast for shit ay, after selling my 300rwkw datto nothing really compares haha

im prob going to buy it off my mate tho to muck around with, all its got is aftermarket EMS, and a zorst.. and got 100rwkw

so whats the go with the silver top vs black top? ( sorry im not up to scratch on the toyota 4 bangers in a FJ/CA/SR man)

What bolt ons do u call "basic bolt ons" tho? just a different intake? and exhaust manifold and cams?

got any graphs of worked 20v's with mods listed? to look at the toruqe curve and power?

[86er]

well Im using megasuirt its preety nice and a cheap option for management gettin better all the time, Ive seen a few modded silvertops dynoed depending on if u have the later model silvertop head u get better flow, theres a nice topic on club4ag where both engine were taken apart and compared by the same Mr. John. But club4ag is down at moment so :mad: anyway, most megasquirted silvertops with open stacks, header exhaust made aroun 130-35whp the few i saw anyway there was one will ted component cam regrinds aswell made in 150whp range not sure which silvertop head though. so your goals should be attainable not sure how much that is in KW


here are pics of the TECARTS 230hp 16v build
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126472.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126473.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126474.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126475.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126476.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126477.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126478.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126479.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126480.jpg

[MountainRunner]

damnn very clean engine bays good work

[86er]

well as far as differences theres
afm (ST) vs (MAP)
st has 43mm itbs with 47mm at top
bt has 45mm with 48mm at top
2 versions of silvertop first(crap head and intake ports) second was much better closer to BT
BT has best stock head and slighter bigger cam some other stuff
compresiion is 10.5:1 on ST 11:1 on BT
BT has ligher rods and balanced bottem end
ST has beefier bottem end supposedly

if u look through those wheels jamaica links i listed especially first one u will see some dynos of a motor being modded at differnt stage s( with various bolt ons)

by bolt ons i mean exhast header, and velovity stacks on intake

[oneyear]

Hi
86er, i am another one who loves 86 and 4age s.
thanks for sharing your research.
in tunning engine for squeezing few extra hp more like over clock computer CPU.
maybe we can get 2 times more horse power than stock performance but its life time will get shorter!
so in drifting most of them detune the 4age under 200hp for reliability and longer life time(in fect they
may not have that much money for change the engine ever few race)
even Iida Akira's AE86 got the engine detuned to 210hp with 9000rpm
other point is they say in N2 engine performance with 213hp will with something between 9000rpm to 9800rpm. if they rev the engine in engine dyno , sure that engine will make over 230hp with 11500rpm.
but those power output should use 116 ron or 100 MON petrol racing or methanol, ethanol
not for daily use.

[jdmcoupe]

Satoru Works drift ae86 20v 1600 produced 244PS thats sould more like it not sure figures of the 1800variant or the specs but if anyone has them please share i suspect they arent much different from most built 20vs in japan but maybe difference is in compression and cam lift.[/b]

thats car had a 7afe block, therefore making it a 7age, making it a 1.8L

in australia yager 7age 20vs make an easy 150rwkw

[oneyear]

"Yagar Race Engines"
did he got any website, so interest about his 7age!!

[jdmcoupe]

he doesnt need a website, his work speaks for itself... you may be interested but do u have 15g to spend on a yager motor????

[samuel]

Not to mention the Yager twincharged 4AGE moke!

[oneyear]

thanks mate!
talk to him in person when i got chance, if he did not have website.
interesting in tech more than buying, chating will be enough.
"like this topic" don't let it stop.

[86er]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
Satoru Works drift ae86 20v 1600 produced 244PS thats sould more like it not sure figures of the 1800variant or the specs but if anyone has them please share i suspect they arent much different from most built 20vs in japan but maybe difference is in compression and cam lift.[/b]

thats car had a 7afe block, therefore making it a 7age, making it a 1.8L

in australia yager 7age 20vs make an easy 150rwkw
[/b][/quote]


I realise that Satpru works had a 7age aswell but if u look at link ull see the one im talking about is stated to be a 100cc production 244ps says hps hp D1 1600cc or something like that take nother look

[jdmcoupe]

Its most likely wrong, his work shop was famous in japan for build 7ages, and 240ps is more the formula altanics engines made, so it must be a 7age...

[86er]

well i guess no way to confim if its 7age or normal 1600


another question is what is the real reliabilty limit, looking at my findings peple are gettin around 180 crank hp with basic header stacks, managemnet and exhaust, s what can one expect from a propper cam mod( say 272 or 288 9mm lift todas and gears, springs) with propper tuning, I see the additonal 20bhp easily, espeicially with a nice port joba nd a slight compression bump

and that should still be reliable to a great extent as its not crazy cams, so I think mmore could be done at that point to push motor how much is question beofre u totally loose reliabilty an engine life becomes short

[jdmcoupe]

key in my eyes would be to go easy on increasing the comp

[SEXY 16]

this is the wrong forum to be asking these questions


www.aeu86.org

[slydar]

youre a funny guy http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

i think you really need to just go ahead and build an engine, or not worry about it.

the "problem" with the 20v is the cam bucket size, which ultimately restricts the size of cam you can run.

thats why, like you have observed, 20v have an lower ultimate power ceiling than a 16v.

they seem to top out at around 200hp or a little over, where as really full on 16vs can get out to it seems to over 230hp.

another thing to note is that in your climate (usa) with your air density and elevation, higher power figures are ultimately achieveable.

which is one reason why say for example, youre top fuel dragsters run faster times than ours.

in australia it is in clubmans (lotus 7 replicas) that 4ag's are the most widely raced and developed, and the no.1 engine builder in those circle is mark yager, you could look into what he is doing, most/all his engines are based on 20v's, though this may have to do with sustainability and availability as much as anything else.

as far as your spec sheet as much as i can tell, if your engine is assembled correctly and your porting is spot on you may crack the 200hp barrier, a couple of things that stick out.. stock crank.. 9000 is pushing it (this is right at the limit of the stock oil pump also) and BT rods, these could be a liability with forged pistons, which are in most cases heavier than stock, increasing the inertail load. you might be better off with a late ST engine as a base. the throttles will not be a limiting factor untill after 200hp anyway.

i think of the 20v as a good option up to 200hp. but beyond that it is still early days for the 20v.. and not really the territory of the back yard engine builder.

i also think youre looking at it the wrong way, you should think about how you want the car to drive, a go about trying to achieve that, not a power figure.

[mattysshop]

not sure if anyone else noticed it... but that bottom end they painted.... 'gulp' purple...... is a 3 rib block.. or is it a 7a bottom end???

[mattysshop]

and how the F$%# did they get the port stem so close to the face of the port?

[86er]

thanks for commenst for the record I am in the West Indies (Barabdos)

While I agress with you on some points the thing is I still think there is more to be seen as while the buckets are a limitation most of engines I've seen use toda cams and highest lift from them is 9mm which isnt the limit of the stock buckets. I also honestly think the blacktop is a better base to acheive this, I posted this info for the benefit of all who have interest in developin this motor, And as you can see from my proposed list of mods while i do plan to build my blacktop I still havent gone with a ful motor build though its not so far off, After discusiion on this topic on a few other forums I belive I can do a milder build and still break the 200hp mark while still being reliable for the most part.
And I am confident that the 20v limit is much higher than the 16v it just remains to be seen as u have stated its not been develpoed to that extent like 16v yet but I have hints we may see full potential soon as I have gotten more word on the hasselgren 20v build

[slydar]

i just assummed 9mm was the limit. have you evidance to prove otherwise?

[86er]

i begining to think no one reads my post in the first post i linked to kelfords cams they make a 10mm cam for 20v and here cat cams makes a 11mm lift one and in they fittin info for there race cams they dont specify oversized buckets being needed http://www.catcams.be/800x600/prod01Alist.htm?PN71074xx.js

try 20v cams (they made one profile) are
Duration Intake 304 Lift 10.8(Fr,R)10.2(Ctr)
Duration Exhaust 312 Lift 10.8

i think that if u want to gop beyond 11mm into 12-13mm lift you would need oversize buckets and seein as u cant got so much oversize u would have to modify bucket edges to allow more lift

[slydar]

yeah, whatever. i dont really take anyone seriously who calculates engine power by using chassis dyno numbers and factoring drive train loss.

gobledegook.

consider this a challenge.

[86er]

ok well i can uunderstand that.
note sure about the gobledegook part though, well my car is rollin with the MS managed blacktop still tuning at moment though maybe i should post up my car in project section.
Time will tell as far as this goes

[supershaneae86]

that was one of the best reads ever! heaps of good info.I still love 16v tho..

[biggo]

tread revival.

One would ask you why go thru all the triouble? By disabling the vvti system your are sigle handedly taking away the 20v most trusted friend, thus making it no more than a higher tech 16v. High lift + Low duration + high compression isnt exactly a mix for reliablity. And unless your goin to rev the rings out of this (ie 11000 rpm+) them moster cams wont have much work.

As for me, my bt makes 120hp so i simply need an 80lb bottle of nawzzz and im in business http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[rthy]

what setup are you running with that blacktop to get that 120hp?

[grassworkzgarage]

hmm some shit is abit conflicting, like slydar said power and tuning engines for FULL potental (drag racing) includes wheather, its all about how much oxygen is in the air & best figures are made when the air is below or as close as below sea level,slydar not the higher u are the better this is wrong as there is less oxygen & as far as i know the BT is not the choice of 20v's cause of the internalz being to light and weak to up hold the pressures of HIGH REVS to create power.
some of these power figures seem alittle over the top, cause every 1 knows power at the start can be obtained easly with na applacations with simple induction, exhaust & ecu changes but once you get to that point let say just what ever lets say 175ps, the next increase in power requires more $$/time & the next is more$$/time & more until any increase in power takes mega $$$$ and mega time on the dyno. take a look at pro stock in USA, it cost more to run in pro stock(under 6sec ET's) than top fuel(4.55 ET's) cause the amount of research and money to find that extra hp in a na engine is incredable. i know some one who use to help buil Joe Poleto's Pro Stock engines and when they where on the dyno they would do a run on the engine then they would dump the oil change the oil filter then take that used oil filter and cut iit in half and put it under a microscope so they could see the fragments of metal. by doing this they could see more of 1 metal compared to the other metal that was in there just to know what componet in the engine was wearing away more than the other, all in the name of finding more hp CRAZY

[biggo]

id rather revs create hp the pure cubic inches.....

sam - my car is a stock bt with quads and shitty trd copy headers. was still making power at 8000 rpm tho http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/grinner.gif

[rthy]

sounds like your doing well for such a setup

[dr1ft-pig]

hey sam what sort of power do you think i will be making with a silvertop/w58/4.1:1 diff/ microtech with good tune???


bit of an ask and i sound like a noob but i dont care

[jdmcoupe]

75-95 rwkw pending on lots of things

[ae71neo]

I just got 95rwkw with silvertop and adaptronic if that gives you an idea.

[dr1ft-pig]

95 kw atw??? thats not too bad, i am looking for a tad more than that, maybe 110 atw, might have to do a bit of port work or something

would a trd 0.5 mm headgasket make any difference??? would raise compression a bit

[b1gb3n]

i got 94rwkw with microtech silvertop with open quads and aftermarket extractors

[rthy]

driftpig: sorry I never received a topic reply notification and I know I am probably a few months late. I would think around 90rwkw but it depends on so many factors, ditch the supra box if you can. I would take some serious cams to make 115kw but yeah again its up to the dyno a lot.

[fixeruperer]

dam i really wanna build a 20v but the more info i read it seems to be a waste of time, i might have to go the 20v 7age to make it worth while.

[blair]

ok noob time.
im getting FUGGIN tripped out
with every second person using horsies
then comparing that to kw's.

is there a bloddy formula??
or are they two seperate measurements that dont have a constant ratio??
oh wow.
i just thought about torque now!!

ahh sheeeeet :o

[Benny]

http://www.mr2ownersclub.com/converter.htm

Theres like, .75 KW's in a HP

[dr1ft-pig]

driftpig: sorry I never received a topic reply notification and I know I am probably a few months late. I would think around 90rwkw but it depends on so many factors, ditch the supra box if you can. I would take some serious cams to make 115kw but yeah again its up to the dyno a lot.[/b]


why do you say ditch the supra box???? most rwd 4cyl toyota boxes have what some people call "the jap gap" between 2nd and 3rd, i wont get this with the supra box, and also i have a fucking awesome 2nd gear ratio, way better than a t50 IMO t50s are junk, they dont put up with what i wanna give em so im not gonna use one, the supra box doesnt weigh too much more, we weighed em but have now lost records, i think the supra garbox is a way better box than a t50 and im sure anyone else will back that up

anyway hoping to make at least 95rwkw, i also hav 4.1:1 diff gears to so that should help a lil bit

[Ru-iki]

i also hav 4.1:1 diff gears to so that should help a lil bit[/b]


The diff gears would be a factor in the reading on AE71 neos motor. As I understand it he has 4.7:1. This will put more power down from his drive-train and give him more at the wheels. My Blacktop was tuned to 84.6kw atw, on a very new dyno dynamics dyno. That is a safe 98 octane tune with the timing 3-4 degrees from optimum. Standard diff also, but I'm going to do likewise to neo, with the 4.7s. I use the same ignition/computer/gearbox as he does, so it will be good to see the two similar setups but with a black/silver comparison to be made. Need to get em on the same dyno sometime...

[ae71neo]

Yeah i have a 4.7 which would have helped me for sure. It would be good to get a side by side comparison to yours and mine.

On a similar wavelength, my dad had a dyno day today for the westfield car club in brisbane. Some results are ZE 150hpatw, Blacktop with motec 141hp (thats pretty bloody good), blacktop with standard ecu 120hp and a silvertop with standard ecu 116hp.

I am unsure of drive line hardware, but they would all be running T-50's and somewhere around 3.9-4.4 diff gearing.

[selk]

what has been done to the gze to get 150hp atw ?

[rthy]

I said to ditch the W box if you can because if the added recripricating and passive weight. From what I hear it makes the engine feel like it has a heavy as flywheel atached. Also the closest ratio box is a W55, which happens to have an almost identical set of ratios as the T50, so yeah I cant see it changing things for you.

For those that dont know I will be ditching my modified 20v blacktop head for a 7afe head that I am just about to start working on.

winslow: I use the factor of x1.34, kw x 1.34 = hp

[Mr Fujiwara]

i just do devide or times by .7457

150hp x .7457 = 111.855kw
111.855/.7457 = 150hp!

16v ftw

[biggo]

We got 122hp this a 3.7 diff.

that said every car will have a different setup this different hpatw reading. Same for Dynos.

What is interesting to note is the power curve on my motor. Pretty interesting to say thie least. Need some other to post up there dyno printouts

[Gunner]

secret specs i stole lol, made 218hp atw in an ae92 not 100% dont know where parts come from but it works.

comp: 12.8:1, alloy rods, lightened and balanced crank, chromoly rings acl race bearings, 288 degree cams and adj cam wheels, double valve springs titanium retainers and spring seats, ported head(dunno how extreme couldnt see inside) relativley long trumpets curved to front of car.

thats all i could get out of em they kno i use ideas from there setups so they're not that keen on me knowing but yeah, revs to 11000rpm, all aussie parts, made 218hp atw at redline was makin power till redline, im sure there was more but they wouldn't tell me, not a good streeter as ud imagin, no usable power till about 6500 rpm, was only makin 60kw at 4000rpm but yeh still pretty cool

[biggo]

i call bullshit

prove me wrong

[jdmcoupe]

agreed dyno sheet please

[awang]

218hp atw, thats a very interesting set up, u wouldn't mind showing the dyno sheet

[Gunner]

lol, i didnt build it, i dont own it, i have nothing to do with it, but the car is quick. i was just mentioning the setup, as i saw it with the very small amount of info i could get my hands on, could be bullshit for all i kno, but the short ride i got in it, it makes 200 horse, its very quick once its on power.

ill try and get sheets, not sure if i can, but ill see.

but why is it bullshit, cause u dont have it or because u dont believe the capabilities of a 20v. there are alot of extremely quik n/a 20vs out there, and if a set veolia pistons, scat rods, 264 cams, double valve springs, titanium retainers, silvrtop head and a good size turbo can make 400hp atw there nothin to say a high comp well built 20v aspirated cant make 200hp atw

[Arch]

Who built this car?^^^

want to try and find some more info on it..

cheers

[Gunner]

i dont kno much about it, saw it at trp oneday when i was down there for coffee. from what i kno tony was fuckin with cam timing, as i said i dont kno much bout it, if i knew more i woulda said it already. when people are in front of most people they dont like tlkin bout what they've done, for example go ask pac or signorelli what trim they run on they're turbos, they wont tell u. it had queensland plates tho

[biggo]

400hp atw! hahahaha

try and tell me it wont happen.

218hp is still bullshit, even with a stupidly high rev line its not going to make power up there. no giggle gas either i noted.

get some pics please

[Gunner]

http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/dy...ackyarda_tn.jpg (http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/dynoruns/backyarda_tn.jpg)
number 1 sit on it dum fucks

http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/dy...ackyarda_tn.jpg (http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/dynoruns/backyarda_tn.jpg)
gee look at that

that car now makes 600hp atw with a 9.5 sec pass to prove it.

just cause u wankers dont know how to do it doesnt mean shit.

if u all doubt 4a sooo much why the fuck do u drive fuck me, wake up and realise that a blacktop would be one of the most advanced and tunable 4 cylinders out there.

[Gunner]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_U7BFv8P04
look another one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBw-lZkQM8s

still wanna argue with me

http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/Vi....460@158.07.zip (http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/Videos/Nitro_Champs-STI_8.460@158.07.zip)
the guy to the side in the white hat is me, just think who worked on that corolla, fuckin dicks

sorry to the rest of u about the language and shit, but that really pissed me off

[DavisJD]

^^^ U can tell the videos are fake, Its obvious its all hand drawn. Nice try though

[Gunner]

yeh i made it from bits and pieces of initial d thought that would make everyone happy lol

[Intense]

I don't see how it's bullshit. FWD's loose less power at the wheels because theirs less of a power loss through the transmission compared to a rwd.

Also, love the huge wheely from the rotor ute :D he almost had the thing on its back

[biggo]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gunbz-r @ Dec 16 2007, 11:49 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=453142)</div>
lol, i didnt build it, i dont own it, i have nothing to do with it, but the car is quick. i was just mentioning the setup, as i saw it with the very small amount of info i could get my hands on, could be bullshit for all i kno, but the short ride i got in it, it makes 200 horse, its very quick once its on power.

ill try and get sheets, not sure if i can, but ill see.

but why is it bullshit, cause u dont have it or because u dont believe the capabilities of a 20v. there are alot of extremely quik n/a 20vs out there, and if a set veolia pistons, scat rods, 264 cams, double valve springs, titanium retainers, silvrtop head and a good size turbo can make 400hp atw there nothin to say a high comp well built 20v aspirated cant make 200hp atw[/b]


why veolia pistons? what makes them better than other brands?
scat rods, again why?
264 cams? lift? what that particular duration just to make 400hp?
doble valve sprins??? gee it must really need to rev for them....with 264 cams?
st20v head? umm no
good size turbo? as in? have yo forgotten its only a 1.6lt? i fail to see it spooling a 3040.

the back yarder guy has water/meth injection. this is extremely unlikely to run a car on the road with just a 2lt milk carton as a fuel tank.

i request again, pics of said car. id really like to ask him some things.

[fixeruperer]

i havent read al the arguement but that backyarders ae82 make over 400hp its strikly a drag car runs on methanol and the block is resin/grout filled.
revs to 11k rpm.
20v massive turbo 1.6.
it had crower rods but they broke with nos using par rods now and he uses wiseco pistons.
ill get more info for ya.

[riojin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (intense @ Dec 21 2007, 02:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=455895)</div>
I don't see how it's bullshit. FWD's loose less power at the wheels because theirs less of a power loss through the transmission compared to a rwd.

Also, love the huge wheely from the rotor ute :D he almost had the thing on its back[/b]
yes shorter driveline and final gear is the gearbox so thats why FWD get more power atw. this was one of the main reasons why most small cars that lacked power went fwd. stupid idea though that has haunted us for over 20years

[fixeruperer]

so rekon when people were designing cars and motors, the motors that lacked in power they thought it would be a good idea to put them in a fwd car becuase there less drivetrain loss wich would make them have more power over all.

[Gunner]

look the whole point is u can make 200atw with a 20v, or even 16v, i cant get pics of the car, i had a hard enough time gettin the info i did, and yes robs (backyarder) car has a grout filled block and runs solely on methanol, but hey its still a 1.6 pumpin out over 600 atw with more to go,

next year im chasin the almighty 200atw, i will prove it, i have the backing to do so, so why the fuck not

[Benny]

I'll be looking at 200hpatw when I'm done with my circuit build. Easily achievable with the right funding.

[Intense]

Then you'll get blown into the weeds by my gze :D

[Gunner]

follow me through some turns and watch what happens, nothin can give u the balls to go excessivley quik thru a set of corners, like a well built atmo 4, boost is nothin in twisty work compared to a well built atmo, not when u can only go thru a corner, at a speed before u say buh bye lol, boost doesnt help, just my opinion had both and driven different sorts, na in turns has my vote

[Intense]

Boost helps shorten the amount of time spent inbetween corners and also makes things in the rear view mirror dissappear very quickly. Also requires much more precise throttle control rather than just mashing it post apex. And to follow you through some turns you'll need to overtake the mighty gze :P good luck doing that with an n/a

[Benny]

Boost is shit. Nuff said. I'd much rather my N/A 16/20v than your supercharged 16v aza :P

[fixeruperer]

no need to bitch a winge and say what you can do when you havent, better off not saying anything and just doing it then tell people becuase if your rong you look like an idiot.
either iether or theres always something better.

[Intense]

Other than for racing regulations I don't see the point in pouring butloads of money into a motor to only make 200hp or so. If the race category requires that you keep the motor n/a then by all means go for it, you'll need it to stay competetive. But other than that, it's really hard to find a legitimate logical reason behind building a monster n/a motor, especially when it's only 1.6 liters. Though I must say I do like the noise of a 4age on full song screaming it's tits off through a set of quads at 10 grand and up, but not enough to make me spend insane amounts of money acheiving that.
Why do you guys cling to n/a and turn ur noses up at anything else in a sprinter? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind this.

[Jonny Rochester]

gunbz-r: I can't quite follow the argument here. I think some people have lost the plot. This thread discussion is about getting the most from a 20V 4A-GE (or 16v) WITHOUT at turbo. Any videos or talk about drag racers using a turbo is sort of irrelivent.

If you had a old Formula Atlantic 4A-GE making about 240hp, then you may get 200hp at the wheels, maybe. That's probably reving at 12,000rpm. Is this the sort of thing we are talking about?

[slydar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (intense @ Dec 22 2007, 02:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=456355)</div>
Other than for racing regulations I don't see the point in pouring butloads of money into a motor to only make 200hp or so. If the race category requires that you keep the motor n/a then by all means go for it, you'll need it to stay competetive. But other than that, it's really hard to find a legitimate logical reason behind building a monster n/a motor, especially when it's only 1.6 liters. Though I must say I do like the noise of a 4age on full song screaming it's tits off through a set of quads at 10 grand and up, but not enough to make me spend insane amounts of money acheiving that.
Why do you guys cling to n/a and turn ur noses up at anything else in a sprinter? I'd really like to understand the reasoning behind this.[/b]

even though this is o/t ill reply.

alot of people base this argument (thats its not worth bothering with an na 4ag) on the fact that they have driven/owned a tired old big port (usually poorly set up) in an 86 and its shit. and well. it is.

but there is a very notable differance between a fucked out old 4ag and a healthy one. notable differance between a big port and a small port ect ect.

then try driving either with even the smallest cams and you begin to realise that the NA path can be very rewarding. even if you dont spend bucket loads of money.

its just a different type of satisfaction. it also keeps costs down. no need to upgrade past T series driveline ect. going to F/I also changes the nature of the car radically, which is necessary to build a competitive drift car, but not to build a fun drift car.

[Gunner]

with tose videos it was just to prove how far u can push a 4a, and this is still a discussion on 200hp 4a's, ill admit i lost it and got ahead of myself, but when people start tlkin like they are kingshit, and honestly dont even have any real comprehension on how to make power from any sprt of engine it shits me.

and when it come to gze's and boosted cars in corners, that more precise throttle control takes away from the concentration of having ur car on the edge, always worrying about comin on boost to strong, leads to a lack of confidence and there for, a mistake, yeh some people have it down to an art, but when it comes down to it u cant beat the outright pure power of an atmo engine, for example take a look at most of the worlds leading motorsports, how many are boosted, and if they are how do they run the boost and the size of the turbos, its all set so the cars are always in a smooth section of power and never of boost, but at the end of the day, atmo cars are always goona have the advantage of being able to power out of a turn first solely on how they deliver their power, and those of u that hav never driven a well set up atmo car, cant comment because u dont know it, no offence but its true.

i always thought boost was the best then i drove a gtr with a 300kw atmo rb30/26 and after that i realised just how much and how far u can push an atmo car

and before anyone tries to burn me, i have driven everythin from 30hp 3 wheel bmw's through to 10sec gtr's and ferrrari's (they suck)

[fixeruperer]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE </div>
but when people start tlkin like they are kingshit, and honestly dont even have any real comprehension on how to make power from any sprt of engine it shits me[/b] listen to your own words.

you own a sprinter man.

maybe you just cant drive and handle boost, to say you think everything is shit and atmo is the best is a silly statement your better off saying "im my opinion".

you can build a boosted car to be as smooth as anything else, its all in the setup. A monster n/a is going to be shit downlow just like a turbo is.

why do you think your so awesome ?

[Jonny Rochester]

gunbz-r: Maybe you should be more clear in your posts. It's a bit rude to come into a conversation about atmo ~200hp engines and say "I know someone with more" and not even mention the turbo.

[Gunner]

now i know im not awesome, im a 3rd yr mechanic, that has only just started to do general mechanics, done nothin but performance for the first 3 yrs and fucked myself up cause of it, im not afraid of sayin that. But i do know my fair share of performance cars, yeah specifically wrx's but i have worked on a few huuuuge power 4a's. i have my opinion, as u do urs, if thats an issue mate deal with it.

as for never driving a boosted car, my first car was a 12 sec vl. and i dont need to brag about what else i have driven, or what i have learnt while doing so.

and when it comes to boosted cars, nothin beats an alcoholic, sniffin gas with a huuuge turbo shoved down its neck, in a str8 line, comes to the corners, i believe in n/a 4's, but i am actually a fan of turbo cars, thats what i work on, thats what i prefer driving overall, but around a track or thru the hills, an atmo 4 is what ill be driving, their usually lighter, there usually more agile, and as i said before u have for more confidence knowin as long as u shift at the right point, all the power is there not a little bit more here and a little bit less there, n/a are more of stable motor. and yes like i said u can build a very good and stable turbo car, but i wouldn't when i could build a 4a, my car may actually go turbo, but thats if i end up tryin to drift the thing.


[attachment=20134:the_vl_001.jpg]
had my p's for 2 days :D

[Gunner]

anyway can we get back to the good ol discussion on 200hp 4a's, not killin what was a good thread.

[stylz]

so what is required to get 200hp 4age? o.0

[Jonny Rochester]

Well, to summarize to the best of my knowledge, to get 200hp (at the crank) from a 1.6 4A-GE:

1. Use a turbo. This makes it very very easy, but this is not what we are talking about here. (You can get 300hp and many people here have that. ~ 160kw@wheels)

2. Use aftermarket conrods and 20v or high compression pistons. Ballance the whole bottom end so it will do 9000rpm. Use a 20v head with upgraded valve springs, or use a 16v head with upgraded valve springs and buckets. 20v quad throttles. A good exhaust. Camshafts between 295 and 305 degrees duration and high lift. Lobe centre closer to 100 degrees. 100 octane fuel. ECU and tuning etc...

Do everything right and you can have 200hp. I don't think there are too many secrets here.

The discussion is ment to be :sleepy: , how to get MORE than 200hp (at the crank, with no turbo) from a 20v or even a 16v. But very few people on this forum will ever do it.

[Gunner]

well, lets talk about at the wheels, where ur power is actually delivered, it will take a lot more than that to do so. alot more interesting and alot more work, this makes the difference between a high 13sec car, to a much more fun high 12sec car.

u get 150hp at the wheels ur close to or over 200 at the crank. depending on driveline loses and how the power is made.

to make 200 atw thats alot of power in a 900 kilo car, and requires revin it over 9000rpm

[rthy]

I hear theres no 20V engines out there producing over 220hp without boost. Too many power limiting flaws in the basic design hence why I am ditching the 20v even though I wont be running big cams.

Also I think theres never been a 20V that makes max power at 11, my reasoning is that you cant get a big enough set of cams in there to make it need to rev that high.

gunbz: where you joking when you said that the blacktop is one of the best tunable engines out there?

[Wanabe_Garage]

very interesting thread...

these power limiting flaws you speak of... what are they? I thought the 20v was good platform for fairly high reving N/A build.

Is there another engine swap in a sprinter that is more tunable then the 4age for n/a?

[Gunner]

well no from what ive seen, u can push it extremely far but it costs money, people tlk hondas as bein that, but 20v are very underestimated, thats why i am spending so much time finding different setups, obviusly as an atmo they arent very promising, but there is alot u can do, if yamaha can bring their 20v, which is actually what toyotas use just in 1.6 instead of 1l, theres alot to be seen, i belive in them, many of u will tink im an idiot because of it but ahwell, thats my thoughts, and i will continue to try and develop 20vs

[Gunner]

as for these weakness's what are they other than the size of the cams u can run, which can be overcome by fitting larger diameter buckets

[rthy]

wanabe_garage: yes there are quite a few restrictions for both the 4age 16V and 20V and yes there is a more potent engine you can install for atmo use but it take a fair bit of work and custom parts.

Heres the problems in the designs


for both the 4age 16V and 20V:

- combustion chamber volume is too large and valves are too close to the edge of the head to allow for correction
- valve angle is too wide for combustion chamber shape and therfore piston shape. The 20V has a narrower angle at 37.5 degrees but is still too wide, around 20 to 25 degrees is ideal.


for the 4age 16V:

- port angle and shape is poor by modern standards which causes port flow stagnation which limits cam choice in the upper end
- squish size and shape isnt ideal
- buckets are still a bit small for a very agressive cam profile and either way the standard setup is very lift limited without an upgrade
- standard intake can be restrictive


for the 4age 20V:

- bucket size severly limits cam aggressiveness and max lift
- port shape is irregular
- silvertop has a particully bad port dividers and the port volume is tottaly uneven which affects the intake harmonic pulses.
- Port angle is good but theres a sharp angle between the head and the heat insulator + manifold which limits maximum flow by 10%
- minimal squish area for the silvertop and the black has virtually none

biggest problem with the 20V is its a 5V head instead of 4V. The 20v engine is an upscaled version of a motorbike head yamaha was making at the same time. Yamaha has no gone back to 4V with its latest motorbike engines and has finally given up for good on the idea. No race team with open rules uses 5V and formular one engines are 4V. If you want to know why 5V is inferior just ask.

You know the funny thing is that the 20V has the following advantages over a 16V in standard form:

- more agressive cam profile and lift
- significantly better flowing intake
- significantly better port angle

and it just makes roughly +10% more power. So even though it has a pretty mild tune it should be making more power.

gunbz-r: any more news on your plans at this stage?

[rthy]

heres my plans in progress:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/161428.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/161429.jpg


a close second in the best flowing A series head around apparently

[Gunner]

nope chasing some funding, got some but not enough lol, why arent people more generous, lookin at some of the new hks pro kits for the 20v tho, they seem like a good option matched with some valve train work, and works a hks pro dealer now so it makes it easy.

still need to finish settin the car up before i get ahead of myself like i usually do, where my lack of experience shines thru unfortunatley

but overall, revin to 11, bit of boost, and geared up so im not doin near on 190k in 3rd

[Gunner]

head work is nice tho sam, u gonna tidy up or u chasin some turbulance

[Wanabe_Garage]

thanks sam_Q

very good read!

was gonna ask about the 5v but your keyoard fingers must be tired...

[Jonny Rochester]

Is that the late model 7A head there Sam? Similar to late model 4A-FE also I think. Whats your planned setup? And how will you get the 20v intake manifold to fit? I am guessing you are planning some very wild custom cams to suit the 7A-FE?

[biggo]

sam - what did you do to the bit where the ijector sits? on the block theres like a blocking bit at the top nozzle of the injector. either its there for a reason or im removing it.

for those out there N/A is the only way :P haha i kid

[rthy]

gunbz-r: early stages at the moment, I need to decide what my options are from here in terms of overall diameter at the choke point, I may open the overall port up more there and between there and the inlet. My dilema is that I need according to my calculations another 2mm I.D on that choke point but I dont know how far I can go before I hit that water jacket. I might take it out another 0.5 to 1mm and shape it from there. I have also only done basic work around the valve guides, I will be shaping them better shortly. Once that is all done I will do some cleaning up with a barrel shaped flapper wheel type thing that fits on the end of a shaft I made that goes into my much abused die grinder. I have tried this previously and it gives a beautiful finish. There was a big discussion on Toymods about the ideal port texture on toymods and the serious aerodynamic guys came out and the final verdict was smooth but no polished is the ideal finish.

wanabe_garage: I will give a basic summary- to accomodate the 5th valve the combustion shape is messed with and even with the supposedly extra airflow of the extra valve the middle valve highly shrouds the outer intake valves. On the earlier 5V designs from Yamaha they had the 3 intakes relatively small and close together to allow for a decent amount of squish area but they also had a bad combustion chamber shape in terms of a raised middle casting for the middle valve. This effectively split the combustion chamber and caused all sorts of havoc from that. Then theres the issues with the shape of the inlet to accomodate the extra valve and the list goes on. Basicly its an idea that seems good in practice but is limited. If this was not the case I am sure that even a Toyota echo these days would have 5V. Also just to prove I am not biast I am currently using a 20V engine and i love it, tough little thing, but if I can get better I will and hence i am going back to a 4V.

Jonny R: yes good guess, and yes the only difference between my head and a 4afe one is the cams profile. My plan is to make a flange on the head myself out of steel, make a flange for the silvertop throttles, bolt the throttle on, hold the throttles in the right place and weld on two temporary strips of metal to hold the two flanges in proportion to each other. Take it all off and make my manifold to suit. It looks like I will be using bits of exhuast pipe to do it and I know I am going to have hell in trying to make a highly angled square hole with angled edges go into a round hole. If all that wasnt enough theres a chance that no matter what i do it will crack because of the fatigue from intake resonance, but I will do what I can about that. I will likely have the maifold in a curve shape and have the throttle on a bit of a downward angle, from there a nice airbox going to an inlet pipe, to a Nissan(!) airflow meter and then my filter on the front of the car like it is now.

biggo: this head does come with any provision for an injector it came standard with it in the manifold. I will draw a picture for you on what I have in mind.

[slydar]

who cares if you hit the water jacket? start again? the head must have cost like $50? i thought that would be part of the appeal.

i always thought the short rod ratio 1.6 just couldnt create enough air speed for a 5v set up and thats why it doesnt work so well on the 4ag. thats part of it i think anyway.

for your intake you could use epoxy for shaping. common and reliable even in the ports themselves. bonding to the steel is the only issue, but that stuff bonds pretty good to anything. there is an issue of "RACE" that describes the technique in a fair amount of detail.

i would certainly suggest you have at least 2 supports running from your throttles to the block. removing these on any 4ag always causes problems. obviously your set up is custom, but these are a necessity, and should definitely be part or your design.

[slydar]

what are you going to do for the cam drive?

[rthy]

slydar: would you believe that no-one anywhere had one of these cylender heads? yeah you know the ones that everyone throws out because they just use the bottom end? I had to buy it from a wrecker for $175!! shit... I will look around for another head in the meantime though then I will be able to take more of a risk. With the epoxy idea if I had some dips in the manifold I would very much looking into it but if everything goes to plan I shouldnt need it.

I tottaly agree with you on the manifold to block braces, I am going to have it very well supported in both to the block and also integral to the flange itself as shown in my drawing below.

The cam drive seems to have a suprisingly easy solution, I tried a 4ag cam drive and it fit and lined up almost exactly right but has a reduced amount of teeth. The easiest way out would be to use the larger toother belt drive on the crank off a FE engine, use the original cam drive on the head and use a 4AFE belt, however I dont plan on this. What I am thinking is use a T3 pulley I have intended for a 4age 16V, use the belt tensioner and belt drive off the 20v bottom end I am using and whatever belt I need thats the right length.


heres that drawing:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/161535.jpg

the injector is in the top part of the curved manifold:



heres a test fit onto an old bigport block I had in my backyard:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/156677.jpg

[slydar]

cool. bummer on the price of the head.

1 more Q.

what is the combustion chamber CC? basically do you think youll get a decent CR using pistons ment for a 16v 4ag?

[COS61AE86RACER]

Been doing some research with Mr Sherwood Sam (He's a big fan of the 7AF head also) personally i cant see the worth but full credit for having a go

All that effort your putting into getting the ports to "stand up" seems wasted when you then plan to hang the throttles down low and make the air work around the "short radius"

perhaps consider making the manifold to have the 20v throttle mounted up high just like the ports so its a nice easy direct run
(where you have the injectors proposed to go is where I think you should have the throttles)

Fitment could be somewhat of an issue but I think you would still get a decent amount of length

Cheers
Chris O

[Jonny Rochester]

Looks very interesting. But why not use the whole 7A-FE, and use the 7A block as well? That would make the whole timing belt thing very easy. Complete 7A-FE with 4A-GE pistons? Keeping it 1.6 would make it a more dirrect comparison with a 4A-GE.

I predict that once you have some big cams made, it is going to be very hard to adjust the valve overlap with the scissor gears. I think this is the main disadvantage of all FE heads, and I'm not sure why they were made like that.

[Gunner]

with your porting sam, why dont u grab another head, as they arent that expensive, and disect so u can go as far as possible, as for the smooth finish, thats what ive heard, helps with atomisation of the fuel and air velocity, never looked into it, sounds like a plan tho dude

[rthy]

Slydar: the head is meant to be 34cc according to Bill Sherwood, this is compared to the 39cc or so with a 4age 16v head. As much as I would like to use the atom smallport pistons it look like I will be using ones from the smallport 4agze instead. I need to do more calculations yet. BTW I am aiming for around 11:1 static compression ratio.

COS61AE86RACER: I have faith in this head but that’s not to say that I am not nervous about it. I keep thinking along the lines of what if after all this work it doesn’t make the power it should? Anyway Bills pictures on the head got me started on it initially and it happen to fall in line with what I was reading about ideal port shape and valve angle at the time, also Bill has been helpful enough to help me out with a few questions, after that I had enough to made me choose to go down this road. I will have a good test when I am done as I have a friend who is building a 20v engine that has some very simular specifications to my engine I am planning, the only main exceptions being he is using blacktop throttles and that I plan to have a hot wire airflow meter unlike his map/tps. So depending on the result of his car going on a weighbridge it will be very interesting to drive each others cars to see how it feels different. If shit really hits the fan I still have th eparts for my backup plan; a 20V blacktop head and a silvertop bottom end.

Your right about the intake, I know that it still works well when the manifold is curved and the last 150mm is straight but still it is a bit of waste. When the time comes I will take my current engine out, dummy fit my head on a that spare block pictured earlier and from there determine how much room I really have to play with. If I can miss the brake booster I will have the throttles angled up a bit and then have the trumpets angled into an oddly shaped him-mount airbox. The curved inlet is my backup plan because from what I can tell I can make it fit. Thanks for the tip Chris.


Jonny: The reason I didn’t go for the whole 7afe engine is personal preference in driving style and power delivery. If I wanted an atmo torque monster I would get it for sure. You are very right about the simplicity in the areas you mention however I am very harsh on engines, I like to have average mid range and high upper end power and use that power up top regularly , just my personal choice.

You are also very right about the sissor gears, I have thought of a way to make them adjustable independently of each other but its going to take some work. Other than that the lobe center angle is pretty fixed. The reason why they went for this design is because it’s a narrow angle head the cams are close together and therefore not practically possible to have twin geared pulley drive system like a G head.

gunbz-r: as mentioned previously I seem to have a fair bit of trouble getting one here. I plan on doing what the toymods experts agree on with the ports, smooth but not mirror like.

[LAZY]

I admire people that push the boundaries for more horsepower, air is what makes power basicly, it would be easier to go bigger on cams, engine capacity or forced induction.

[Ru-iki]

Im aiming for 100kw atw with my Blacktop atmo build. With stock internals, and 98 octane, Coil over plug, aftermarket tune, and t series 4.556 gearing. Do I ask too much? Its at 89.6 right now with 3.9s. I think its possible. Who thinks I'm dreaming?

In my opinion its important to consider the whole package and its frictional loses before working too hard tuning a motor that wont reach its potential at the wheels in a less than perfect drive line. I will modify the motor one day, but not till I get the drive line the way it needs to be, pulling good numbers on a stock motor.


To SamQ, where do you find all your info mate? Talk about research...

[Delazy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ru-iki @ Dec 28 2007, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=459761)</div>
To SamQ, where do you find all your info mate? Talk about research...[/b]

from ppl that have some genuine idea....which in 99% of the case isnt ppl from this forum

[LAZY]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (delazy @ Dec 28 2007, 10:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=459854)</div>
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Ru-iki @ Dec 28 2007, 07:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=459761)
To SamQ, where do you find all your info mate? Talk about research...[/b]

from ppl that have some genuine idea....which in 99% of the case isnt ppl from this forum
[/b][/quote]


Lol listen to this man, he has a point.

[rthy]

Lazy: thanks

ru-iki: getting 100kw-atw is as simple as taking it to the right dyno. I have now seen dyno results from 75 to 125kw-atw for the same combination and I bet the engines were making the same power. I have heard people and magazines say that there is no more that 5 or 10% variance in a dyno result but I simply don't beleive it. If however you want 100kw-atw in direct comparasin to the silvertop guys who have got 90 to 95kw then what you need is a decent set of extractors (good luck finding some!!), an angled intlet manifold spacer, non restrictive filtration and the right length trumpets.

As for research I have been reading non-stop for years in magazines like zoom, HPI and even hot 4s a long while back when they actually used to have non rice stuff (ok a real looong while back). But after a while I found it a bit limiting what they could teach and when I started having my own ideas I started looking deeper into the forums and started posting questions on more indepth things than one off problems like most tech questions. Other than that I hate to say it but these guys are right, I do listen to people in the know on here but many of the really knowlegable guys dont come on here anymore. I have had people that are very convincing on here and elsewhere but I know from my theory knowledge that what they saying hasnt been right. My other research comes in the forms of books, the best book on engines I have found yet is "four stroke peformance tuning" by Graham bell and for suspension design I thought "chassis tuning" was awesome. I also got sick of not knowing anythig about cam specs so I bought a book on that and it was suprisingy straightfoward, so now I know if someone says they have a 20-40 intake cam I straight away know its a 240 degree duration.

Also my problem is I have part of the theory knowledge but I dont have any experience in building an engine. Basicly I am trying to do what I can from test knowledge and pictures alone, so I dont know if I can pull it off.

[Ru-iki]

Yeah, I know all about dyno variance, thats why i go to the newest one in town, which is widely regared as not a generous dyno, and always go back to the same place for tuning runs, so I have a more accurate comparison.

Sam, I like your theory, get the knowledge base, work on your own ideas and theories, then practically test. Thats a great way to be. I think you may benefit greatly from discussing your ideas with people like engine builders and machinists who have a practical grounding in this field. May save a few heads from the scrapheap while you work out your methods. Keep us posted, Im keen to see your frankenmotor come to life.

[rthy]

having a single dyno for all testing is a wise move indeed. If you have a decent setup depending on how they read you might get 100kw. Do you have any long term plans for the engine? Although its such a pain to do I think all 20v engine could use a port job, escpecially the silvertops as they have shocking milled steps in the bowl.

what you say about my approach sounds very much like my usual plan, its quite interesting to try and channel everything I have learnt in the last 9 years or so into one engine, I have a few people who are looking with interested eyes and I will make no promises on how it will work out. I do plan to talking to the engine builder about various things soon and have him tell me if what I did was garbage or not. If I was wrong about the port shape then I guess I could always use some JB weld to reshape them to suit, but I somehwhat confident I have done the right things so far. For the actual assembly I will have someone help me that used to work for a supercar team so that part should be ok. From a while back till I drive it for like a few months I think I will still have in my mind what if it blows up?? I know it shouldnt, if my clearences are all ok and there wasnt a crack that they missed when they test the crank then nothing should go. I sure hope they get the cams right when I give it to kelfords though.



I will keep people updated, just keep your eyes peeled on my worklog. You know one funny thing is one thing I will really like is if this works out and kicks arse and someone sees it go only to look under the bonnet and go WTF is this!?

[Ru-iki]

My long term plan is a nicely tuned, close to stock motor. Once I spin something, Im thinking about boost. Maybe gt28RS, but thats a long way off for now. The ae111 engine seems to be very abusable, in stock form. Ive been trying to hurt it and I cant yet, so who knows. In the back of my mind is 7age, with the ae111 head. I guess you could say Im undecided. Im always open to new ideas, every day is a school day after all...

[letsgohunting]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gunbz-r @ Dec 22 2007, 04:53 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=456557)</div>
with tose videos it was just to prove how far u can push a 4a, and this is still a discussion on 200hp 4a's, ill admit i lost it and got ahead of myself, but when people start tlkin like they are kingshit, and honestly dont even have any real comprehension on how to make power from any sprt of engine it shits me.

and when it come to gze's and boosted cars in corners, that more precise throttle control takes away from the concentration of having ur car on the edge, always worrying about comin on boost to strong, leads to a lack of confidence and there for, a mistake, yeh some people have it down to an art, but when it comes down to it u cant beat the outright pure power of an atmo engine, for example take a look at most of the worlds leading motorsports, how many are boosted, and if they are how do they run the boost and the size of the turbos, its all set so the cars are always in a smooth section of power and never of boost, but at the end of the day, atmo cars are always goona have the advantage of being able to power out of a turn first solely on how they deliver their power, and those of u that hav never driven a well set up atmo car, cant comment because u dont know it, no offence but its true.

i always thought boost was the best then i drove a gtr with a 300kw atmo rb30/26 and after that i realised just how much and how far u can push an atmo car

and before anyone tries to burn me, i have driven everythin from 30hp 3 wheel bmw's through to 10sec gtr's and ferrrari's (they suck)[/b]


This is sort of on topic - but how could possibly say that ferraris suck? Here we are talking about high power n/a motors and you're going about the tuneability of 20vs etc, and then you say ferraris suck. I don't understand your logic. You're talking about some of the finest n/a motors on the planet. Have you never heard an f355 f1 on full throttle to the redline? They scream in a sort of audible bliss that makes even 80 year old widows orgasm in pure delight. The motors are for the most part small block, high tech and tuned v8s with huge redlines, beautiful response while maintaining driveability at low rpm. And they do it all day every day without fail.
They are mostly the holy grail of high performance n/a motors

Also, you'll find most of the time an excellent driver in a gtr/rx-7/evo/wrx will outdrive an excellent driver in an ae86 with a tuned 4age making 200hp at the wheels, and will do it for a lot less money. I know because I've compared with cars that I've owned. Just because a car is turbo doesn't mean it has no response or that it is clumsy on the limit. You'll find many stock or even lightly modded turbo motors are highly responsive once in the meaty end of the powerband, and a hell of a lot cheaper/more reliable than a hard tuned n/a motor.

[letsgohunting]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LdaNknrWxs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2scb1K3QdY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXx0xtMXJzc

[rthy]

nice vids... what do those thing rev to anyway? sounds crazily high


anyway I spent a whole day doing porting on just the exhaust side of my FE head, its hard work and I sure hope I did it right.



http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/161665.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/161666.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/161667.jpg

[Gunner]

nah i only bag ferrari's out as i have a personal vandetta against them, got really hurt surfin a motor out of the back of a 360, not fun to work on, and for the price, just not my cup of tea

sam ur crazy, love ur work dude, hope i have the patience that u do some day lol

[Benno]

put a full thin-wall stainless steel exhaust on you 20v or 2zz-ge and you'd probably get a similar note to those ferrari's

good work Sam, nice to see someone's tuned in to the narrow valve angle theory. looking forward to the progress.

[Johnny_K]

Playing with the intakes as well i think helps getting that sound too. I dont work on ferrari but i see alot of them and drive around the car park, but the tech told me the ferrari F430 has a 3 way variable intake plenum , down low on idle it sucks (sounds like a boat) but up in the rev range it sounds awesome . still no match for a aston martin V8 vantage on full blast

[Anthony]

Sam if you're that serious about learning about porting, I'd suggest setting up a home grown flow bench. Much better to have quantitative results for your effort and you'd learn more, faster.

Very cheap to setup and the best tools are those you make yourself. Plus like a dyno it doesnt have to be accurate - just consistent. I would love to setup one up and play with the many orphan 16 and 20V heads laying around here if i didnt already have far too many projects on the go.

Also, agreed power figures are fairly irrelevant for comparison interstate or even across town, even when theyre on relatively new dynos of the same manufacture. Sticking to the one is essential to learn anything. So when you've tuned a couple of dozen 20V's and they all fall between 82 and 94 kW, you know a Beams 3S is something special when it cracks 130.

[LAZY]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anthony @ Dec 30 2007, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=460458)</div>
Sam if you're that serious about learning about porting, I'd suggest setting up a home grown flow bench. Much better to have quantitative results for your effort and you'd learn more, faster.

Very cheap to setup and the best tools are those you make yourself. Plus like a dyno it doesnt have to be accurate - just consistent. I would love to setup one up and play with the many orphan 16 and 20V heads laying around here if i didnt already have far too many projects on the go.

Also, agreed power figures are fairly irrelevant for comparison interstate or even across town, even when theyre on relatively new dynos of the same manufacture. Sticking to the one is essential to learn anything. So when you've tuned a couple of dozen 20V's and they all fall between 82 and 94 kW, you know a Beams 3S is something special when it cracks 130.[/b]

The beams has a bigger capacity lol, of course is going to make more hp, lol why not a s2000 engine.


Sam_Q:- Remember formula atlantic hp figure, its up to you to gather as much information as possible.

[Ru-iki]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anthony @ Dec 30 2007, 01:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=460458)</div>
you know a Beams 3S is something special when it cracks 130.[/b]

Yes very special indeed. Imagine a blacktop 4a with dual vvtli...

[Anthony]

Yeah 25% more capacity. So 50% more power is a good result, and what makes it a meaningful result is its on the same dyno, this was the point I was making.

[rthy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anthony @ Dec 30 2007, 02:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=460458)</div>
Sam if you're that serious about learning about porting, I'd suggest setting up a home grown flow bench. Much better to have quantitative results for your effort and you'd learn more, faster.

Very cheap to setup and the best tools are those you make yourself. Plus like a dyno it doesnt have to be accurate - just consistent. I would love to setup one up and play with the many orphan 16 and 20V heads laying around here if i didnt already have far too many projects on the go.

Also, agreed power figures are fairly irrelevant for comparison interstate or even across town, even when theyre on relatively new dynos of the same manufacture. Sticking to the one is essential to learn anything. So when you've tuned a couple of dozen 20V's and they all fall between 82 and 94 kW, you know a Beams 3S is something special when it cracks 130.[/b]

yes its funny you mention that because I am in the process of looking to making a very crude setup that uses a large fan or something sucking air through a 20v airflow meter, a dummy bore my cylender head at whatever opening I want and then to the dummy plasticine rolled edge. I will from that read the voltage signal coming off the airflow meter and use that as my referance. I think I will do it if I work it out out, I really dont see any major problem and I think I will start a thread on it. What do you think Anthony is that what you had in mind?

I think if I would have a beams engine on that dyno making 130kw then I would be very impressed indeed.

[Anthony]

The AFM is a pretty cool idea, most setups ive seen use a high quality but old vacuum cleaner and a ball in tube type manometer inline.

If you did go the afm route, dont use a ST one - theyre terribly unreliable - perhaps a nissan or late toyota hotwire type.

[rthy]

a vacume cleaner!! why didnt I think of that! I was actually thinking more along the lines of one of those large workshop fans initually but I will have a look around and see what I can dig up. Thanks for the tip on the airflow meter but I decided its probably a good idea to use one off a small engine because I just coulnt imagine me using much of the resolution of one made for a 1.6L engine. That raises the question of how would I get the wiring diagram for it? I could try and strip back the loom and try and figure it out on the car, or bell it out with my multimeter. Either way I think its time to visit the self serve wreckers...

[Jonny Rochester]

http://images.google.com.au/images?svnum=1...G=Search+Images (http://images.google.com.au/images?svnum=10&um=1&hl=en&safe=off&q=flow+bench&btnG=Search+Images)

Read everything in this link Sam. Don't stuff around with a air flow meter. Use a manometer and get meaningful results that will make sence to other engine builders and scientists alike. For this aplication, you are probably allowed to talk in inches and psi.

We all want to see you make a flow bench Sam! And test your head both before and after porting!

[rthy]

ok thanks for the tip jonny I will do just that, I will need another head though for testing purposes

[levinracer]

interesting reading most of this,although,being experienced with 20v race engines in both 4a and 7a combinations, aswell now with a 16v 7a race engine in my roady, i am fully aware of horsepower figures achieved from all of these combinations, and all of them built by Yager and the likes, the horse power figures some of you guys are talking are far fetched, but then different dynos read different amounts of horsepower.

20v 4a race engine = up to 165 rwhp
20v 7a race engine = up to 180 rwhp
16v 7a race engine = up to 165 rwhp (head doesnt flow as well as 20v)

this is just my experience.

cheers brad

[biggo]

200cc for another 15rwhp :blink:

Do you have any dyno sheets from your motors? Methinks they would be interesting

[XaeRob]

Sorry to go massively off topic, but where can I get one of these radiators seen in the first post?:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/126457.jpg

Interesting topic though, even if it is a bit old!

[biggo]

Honda? Civics have massivly small radiators like that

[slydar]

yes, it is a civic radiator. it is not a direct fit, the inlet and outlet are in the wrong place and are too small.

it is used on that car because that car is from the USA, and in America, Hondas are very popular, so aftermarket parts (like that radiator) are cheap.

[riojin]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (biggo @ Apr 8 2008, 04:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=514962)</div>
200cc for another 15rwhp :blink:

Do you have any dyno sheets from your motors? Methinks they would be interesting[/b]
the torque difference would be quite large with those power figures

[biggo]

*Wigga talk*

I Know this..

[lo_rolla]

You can talk about flow benching and shit, but alot of it is port design aswell, as I'm sure Mr Sam_Q would know (you know every thing else dude).
In theory a head that say flows 400hp over a standard 200hp on a flow bench is not guaranteed to have a massive or any power increase if the port design is not up to scratch.

For any one who knows what they're talking about / looking at, get a hose and run water in through the inlet to see the way it flows.

[levinracer]

torque difference is massive, the power from 4000 (where you are accelerating from out of a corner) is almost double in some cases.

brad

[ke25 racer]

here is my dyno sheet for a 4a 20v yeager motor

[Gunner]

What gear is it in, she comes on quick dude, I like that the tuner has kept it nice and lean in the bottom end.

Ke25, you don't run a dry sump do you?

[ke25 racer]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gunbz-r @ Aug 7 2008, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=572762)</div>
What gear is it in, she comes on quick dude, I like that the tuner has kept it nice and lean in the bottom end.

Ke25, you don't run a dry sump do you?[/b]

That is 3rd gear, jason is a gun with laptop on the rollers. This engine is a absolute jet!
No i don't run a dry sump, i have found out it is a modified 7a sump, as per pic