Grip...who is into it?

[ThatsHowWeRoll]

So most lads here are into getting loose but who has a passion for grip?? Any thoughts on the future of it?

I myself like grip racing alot! In particular time attacks.

Iv got my car set-up for it and its so fun getting back to the pits and checking your times.

All i need is some decent rubber.

[Konakid]

Im yet to try it out but next year ill definitely be hitting the track for some gripping yarns and a few motorkhanas. Just need a set of track rims and tyres which isnt cheap!

[dave2221]

yeah something i am wokring towards (not a hard core time attack car)

but i like to go fast

[Wally]

I prefer grip over drift and thats what my car will be aimed at by the time i finish.

[ThatsHowWeRoll]

The best mods i have done so far for grip is a kaaz lsd....the amount of traction you get coming out of the corner is amazing! Comibne that with a set of semi-slicks and you will be having some serious fun.

[45KIDS]

Im keen on time attack and hillclimbs

Haven't had a go yet but hopefully mid next year my car will be starting to be ready for some action!

Who here's into hillclimbs?

[stouty]

Ive only done one hillclimb was a couple months ago was a great day and relatively cheap. I will be entering into as many as i can next yr. Ive been doing motorhkanas and autocross at my local car club (Central North Coast Sporting Car Club) this yr. Looking to move into something a little more serious.

[Adsie]

Started sprints this year at QR and will hopefully make all the SAS rounds at QR next year. Then I need a silencer and I'll be out at lakeside aswell. Also started doing motorkhanas don't know if you count them as 'grip' which is the fastest way around but not necceserly the funnest.

[ThatsHowWeRoll]

i run in the mountain view hillclimb series held in grafton...managed to come 4th for the season in my class behind a 7age ke70 and a mental r2000 escort....

I drive my street car so its hard to get my shit together to be super competative

i would love to one year go nuts and get some rubber and do the whole state Hillclimb sesries.

[R&D Mechanical]

Iv done a hill climb and went to my local race track to try grip last year in my mini, great fun and you learn heaps about driving!

Time attack looks quite cool, wouldn't mind to try that out!

[crackett]

Drove an Evo 9 today and my mate Club Spec WRX the other day, fark it makes me want to get into time attack etc more.

[ThatsHowWeRoll]

Was the evo way better?? iv driven a few rexies and i was let down by their perfomance...

[ke70_sa]

im more grip orientated.
a few younger people are into it, but drifts sort of the "trendy" thing.
ke's are good for it too, and bluebirds coz of the IRS shit.
its funny as sittin up the arse of cars in the wet with too much power & FA traction n they cant shake ya. coro's (SA) best for it.

[crackett]

Was the evo way better?? iv driven a few rexies and i was let down by their perfomance...


Well the WRX was a 2000, and not an STI, and stock and wagon, but the pick up was still amazing, especially compared to my R32 which has double the power.

Evo owned though, much more responsive. This was tuned though. I will own one some day, haha.

Although I think it was on Top Gear, the new STI was faster than the Evo 10 which apparently has the fastest auto shift in any car built currently.

[ThatsHowWeRoll]

sweet....iv driven a mild modded 2000 wrx which was fun but not that exciting....and iv driven an STi on dirt and it pulled well on boost but when it was not boostin it was gay...just wasn't responsive enough..i will have to find an evo to try i think...

[crackett]

Deffinitly won't regret it. I'll let you know how the Evo 10 goes, hopefully drive a few of them soon!

[Eircamae86]

Ive only done a few trackdays, brilliant, would love to Rally but waaay to expensive.
Going to give drifting a go just for the moment but track racing is the long term goal

[Jdm-Mcc]

I currently run in the Motorkhana/Khanacross series in my local club and got 2nd overall for the year out of 45 members YEEEEEWHOOOOO.

But ive always had fantasys of competing in hillclimb and supersprints with a street/track car thats sort of what my 1200 is being built for more street car tho, I also have fantasys to drift but not many datsuns like that very much:worried:

[ToySprinta]

I run the local hillclimb, only beaten once by an RX7 in my class >|

Planning on going in the NSW Dutton next year :)

[Danzo]

im more grip orientated.
a few younger people are into it, but drifts sort of the "trendy" thing.
ke's are good for it too, and bluebirds coz of the IRS shit.
its funny as sittin up the arse of cars in the wet with too much power & FA traction n they cant shake ya. coro's (SA) best for it.


Ive done a few grip sessions at mallala.. good fun, had some good battles.. be hitting it again next year for sure..

Oh yeah bluebirds = live axle, not IRS.

[AE86R]

im a grip man, you spend all these years trying to get quicker and quicker through cornors why drift.

though when i get my ke that will be solely drift funn.

[samuel]

i frequent a few of the track events held at winton, they are good fun and you learn alot...

i dont like drift at all as a sport, it irritates me... for fun drift is cool i do it every now n again but for me track is what its all about

[mack 10]

I too prefer proper driving over drifting. But then again i prefer dirt over tarmac haha. I have set up my daily KE70 to be a good all round hills car and use my AE86 as a full time purpous built rally car.

What i would also like people to learn is:

1. Running 8+ inch wide wheels on such small light cars will only over tyre the car.

and

2. 8 and 6 kilogram springs is a joke and way too stiff for anything other than a racetrack.

[Kamikaze]

I am interested in Grip driving, but I started with Karting, :jdmsmile:

I think all the basic techniques about Grip driving (driving line, Brake & accel timing & control) are required before jumping into a real tuned car, which you can learn those basic skills in Karting.

In my opinion, A tuned street car is more likely for an advance driver, if you dont know the basic, its more risky.

I would also recommend all beginners to start Grip Driving with Karting before driving your own. :jdmsmile:

[R&D Mechanical]

I too prefer proper driving over drifting. But then again i prefer dirt over tarmac haha. I have set up my daily KE70 to be a good all round hills car and use my AE86 as a full time purpous built rally car.

What i would also like people to learn is:

1. Running 8+ inch wide wheels on such small light cars will only over tyre the car.

and

2. 8 and 6 kilogram springs is a joke and way too stiff for anything other than a racetrack.

OMG, some who knows something about good sus setups!

:)

[jfallen]

My CA18DET powered TA22 Celica is for the track. Going for a slide is a good thing to do at the end of the day when all your tyres are shagged, but hunting down cars into hairpins lap after lap is much more satisfying. If you get the chance enter yourselves in one of the 6-hour modern regularities. They're awesome fun, you get to race in a team, and it's a genuine enduro. So you better make sure your car is up to the task.

Anybody can build a car that'll do one lap (drift) and then cool off, but it takes a little more thought to get one that'll do lap after lap after lap and still hold up. Breaks, tyres, engine, driver, cooling and all.

Cheers
Jordan

[ToySprinta]

Gotta say, hunting down a big turbo 6 or some other nissan crap, and almost nudging their doors and forcing errors in battles does have its merits... :p

I've also found drifting to be far harder on a car than circuit racing. I can belt round wakefield all day, but drifting makes it start to get hot. You're bouncing off the rev-limiter 99% of the time...

Don't get me wrong, i love my grip and drift just as much as each other, just feel like playing devils advocate :p

Steve

[hachi6]

About time! The 86 is an awsome grip car. much easier to set up well than a drifter. Havnt been out in a while but QR is calling!!

[Just Half Steppin]

I too prefer proper driving over drifting. But then again i prefer dirt over tarmac haha. I have set up my daily KE70 to be a good all round hills car and use my AE86 as a full time purpous built rally car.

What i would also like people to learn is:

1. Running 8+ inch wide wheels on such small light cars will only over tyre the car.

and

2. 8 and 6 kilogram springs is a joke and way too stiff for anything other than a racetrack.

dude shut up...

8 and 6 is fine for hills, daily and track...so long as you have shocks valved to suit...oh and your not a little bitch about having a bit of a rough ride...

as for wheels... there is nothing wrong with running say an 8.5 front 9 rear with 205/50's...

[Sam-Q]

I am a grip driver and I haver gone to great lengths and will go to many more to get as much as I can. I hate it when my car oversteers mid corner as I have to slow down.

[crackett]

Yeah, tyre width really does count for alot more than the actual rim with depending on what your using the car for.

As for spring rates, rear rough ride for daily use, but no one puts those rates in a daily and doesn't give it some shit from time to time.

[munki]

dude shut up...

8 and 6 is fine for hills, daily and track...so long as you have shocks valved to suit...oh and your not a little bitch about having a bit of a rough ride...

as for wheels... there is nothing wrong with running say an 8.5 front 9 rear with 205/50's...

I disagree. You will go faster on the street/hills with softer springs than 8/6

[Konakid]

Of course, but its a sweet compromise for when you want to chuck skids. 8 and 6 is a compromise, but not a bad setup at all, still very capable gripping in the hills, you just need to drive it differently.

[ThatsHowWeRoll]

It depends alot on the driving style, your alignment and tyres. On street tyres you need the bit of body roll to dig the tyres in, with semi-slicks you have to set the car up different...its part of the fun though.

I have set mine up so that it will understeer just a little before the tail gets out...i use it to pull me out to the outer edge of the track and straighten the line, it works alot better than oversteering out.....

[chris1818]

I too prefer proper driving over drifting. But then again i prefer dirt over tarmac haha. I have set up my daily KE70 to be a good all round hills car and use my AE86 as a full time purpous built rally car.

What i would also like people to learn is:

1. Running 8+ inch wide wheels on such small light cars will only over tyre the car.

and

2. 8 and 6 kilogram springs is a joke and way too stiff for anything other than a racetrack.


Well said. I feel exactly the same.

Theres a really old clip on youtube of the Hakosuka GTR being driven for the last time round fuji speedway, and at the end of the lap the driver says that 'todays modern tyres dont suit the car' as there is too much grip and the car isnt allowed to move around on the road as it was designed back in the 70s with old tyres.

I think this is the same argument.

heres the video, its an awesome one ;)

http://http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6021196065589597987&q=gtr&hl=en

Oh yeah, Grip FTW

[Sam-Q]

Of course, but its a sweet compromise for when you want to chuck skids. 8 and 6 is a compromise, but not a bad setup at all, still very capable gripping in the hills, you just need to drive it differently.

capable for some areas maybe. You would have to drive embarassingly slow with 8/6s where I go to not bounce all the place. I used to have 6s in the front of my car untill I got sick of going so slow around corners in my area. I am happy with my 4.9s right now

[Sam-Q]

Well said. I feel exactly the same.


heres the video, its an awesome one ;)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6021196065589597987&q=gtr&hl=en

Oh yeah, Grip FTW

link fixed, pretty good driving for an old coot

[Kamikaze]

It depends alot on the driving style, your alignment and tyres. On street tyres you need the bit of body roll to dig the tyres in, with semi-slicks you have to set the car up different...its part of the fun though.

I have set mine up so that it will understeer just a little before the tail gets out...i use it to pull me out to the outer edge of the track and straighten the line, it works alot better than oversteering out.....


I agree, its really depend on your driving style, & depending to lenght & width of corners & road condition.

[crackett]

Just get King Springs, problem solved...

[Sam-Q]

eeek King Springs, rates that are just like stock... 2.8kg/mm for king lows

[Sprinterboy]

My toy is built for Grip work. Hillclimb (hence the bigger charger = no lag :D)

Will get it back to WP soon.

[fantapants]

im not one to buy into the spring rate argument, i havnt been around long enough.

i just rate driving my car :) drift is certainly fun and a great way to get out... but grip is mad fun, finding limits and keeping pace.

but in terms of springs, id worry less about them and more about shocks.... adjusting shocks is where its at in terms of cars attitude over irregularities in the road... my 2c though :)

[quadeyquade]

I guess i have to like grip, cause drifting is pretty hard in my car... :D

I wouldn't mind giving it a shot but.

[Jdm-Mcc]

Just get King Springs, problem solved...

Lol King springs fail motorsport applications.Period

[Sam-Q]

King springs fail at road use too, might be good on one of those roads in the desert though.

[Sprinterboy]

This from personal exp or just hear say?

[crackett]

Twas a joke, haha.

But I had them in the back of my 86 for a bit once, deffinitly a hard fail.

[Tally]

Yea my goal with my ke70 is to make it a respectable street machine.
Not by attaching the drift thrasher name to it, but rather making it a smartly set up car for grip.
Its good to see people recognize that these corollas can also be compotent grip machines...

[James86]

i love grip, have done a handfull of grip prac days and been out to 2 john bowe 'high performance' drive days, which are really good value for money if you ever get the chance. Many more laps in a day, more relaxed atmosphere, can take instructors passenger etc. I say this because i cant skid though.

It's pretty awesome being able to push your limits and only end up in the dirt when you fuck up. Hope to take 81 out late feb and march, and as many prac days as my work roster allows. Would love to see some of the guys on here come out.

[obey wan boenny]

I don't mind grip, prefer slip but its still good fun. Entered a grip prac day before and keen to do more in my ke this year.

[matt mead]

Im a grip man, went to the track about 5-6 times last year. luv my track days and motorkhanas.

Going to the track tomorrow, gone back from semi slicks to streets tyres for this one to. Help to improve my driving and more fun :)

[k.aaron]

Im yet to try it out but next year ill definitely be hitting the track for some gripping yarns and a few motorkhanas. Just need a set of track rims and tyres which isnt cheap!

I love Motorkhana's! I've been doing them in a car club since I was 13 and they were such a thrill!

But the tyres were costing way too much and they wore out after a day.

It's really for the rich folk!

[Sam-Q]

This from personal exp or just hear say?

dunno if that was aimed at me but yeah sadly from my personal experience.. I want my $$$ back!

this is for an off the shelf "king lows"

[Beck]

I too fell for the off the shelf Kings, as recommended to me by a mate's mechanic. Sadly, the car is higher (was told it'd be the same or lower) and handles worse (was told it'd handle better) than with the no-name progressives on the front, and the dodgy cut stockers on the back that were on it when I bought it. :\

I would also like my $$$ back... I'm convinced they are manufactured, not from steel, but from fail.

[focus_7]

So I'm in Sydney, what's the best way to get into grip driving? Are there specific track days for amateurs and beginners to get out and try out some circuit driving. Do you need to have done an advanced driving course?

Also where do you go for these hillclimb events, I'd really like to get out into some motorsport.

[ThatsHowWeRoll]

^^a CAMS lisence will be a start for hillclimbs....just find a track and a club and make a phone call to get some forms sent out!

[AE86R]

best way is next grip day at a track go to it buy cams licence for the year, join a cams affiliated club and your off

[focus_7]

Is there any AE86 club, or club that most guys from here are on?

[Sprinterboy]

I'm part of the SDMA, Its a canberra hillclimb track.

But those of you wanting a CAMS licence. May I sugest waiting a few months (if you can hold out that long) before joining another club. Good news comes to those who wait

[letsgohunting]

dude shut up...

8 and 6 is fine for hills, daily and track...so long as you have shocks valved to suit...oh and your not a little bitch about having a bit of a rough ride...

as for wheels... there is nothing wrong with running say an 8.5 front 9 rear with 205/50's...

Disagree. Most 8/6 setups pretty much eliminate too much body roll/weight transfer characteristics and make the car unpredictable and difficult to drive on the limit. You NEED some lean in corners.

In my experience, softer spring rates with good quality dampers and big swaybars is the go for an all round setup. Stiffer springs can go fast, it just isn't that fast, and it's very hairy. Even for drifting I prefer the softer spring setup.

[Sprinterboy]

It's not just spring, Its shock settings, Camber, Sway bars. My current package was Shoit when I first put it in, now it's completely different after some R&D.

What i've found as far as setups go for any car. is it's to suit you and your driving style. I've had the chance to drive many different cars on track and also a couple of different 86's with different setups. I still prefer mine over some of the others. But thats my choice and how I like to drive it.

[sr_rolla]

just my 2 cents, as a car club try bathurst light car club, they have a fair few events at mt panorama (and wakefield i believe) and it costs $50 a year to join

[driftke70]

fuck there is some jibber jabber in here

when your driving the hills do you have a stop watch going?
probably not, then who gives a fuck, if your having fun thats all that matters.

people say drift gets a bad name from stuff like nfs or what ever, there has always been stuff like that in every motorsport, cause you some guy with a civic with a heathcote dragway sticker and a cannon does that make drag racing lame, its easier to make drifting look better on a photo, cause it does and is, not saying grip sucks, grip is awesome, but driving around a car that doesnt have enough power to make you clench your anus around qr is somewhat of a drag. But that car could be slid to a certain extent which would be more fun.

Its stupid catagorising stuff, every track people go to is different, the places people drive is different, everyones cars are different, and the joys people get out of driving is different.

as for 8 and 6 kg springs, its relative to your shocks and tyres, and i think 8 and 6 is fine for grip. If i was going all out grip i might be inclined to make them a little stiffer.

sam q if you have to slow down mid corner because of oversteer, your doing it wrong.

[sr_rolla]

or u have an incorrect setup, which samq did at the time, maybe still does.

Thanks for adding some more "jibber jabber" as u call it. With the 8/6 kg spring debate which i have kinda tried staying out of till now, when did going stiffer equal better handling? 8/6 is to stiff for circuit/grip orientated driving, plain and simple. I'm not on my own with this, sharpeto racing have a fleet of 4 corollas, 2 KE55 shape 2 KE20, the stiffest springs they run at event the tightest circuits with lots of sharp directional change is 400lbs on the front. There are also a no. of race cars (AE86's) around the country that do circuit work, the hardest that they tend to run is also in the region of 400lbs front 200lbs rear for the tightest work. These are all class leading cars that are well developed and set quick times, they no what works. If 8/6 was the way to go they would be doing that but they arent, plain and simple.

Also on the subject of 8/6 spring rates, something i noticed was that for ages the common setup was 6/4, everybody ran this a while back, then some bright spark decided that he would use a 2nd hand set of S13 coilovers in the front of his *E7*/AE86 and thought, "i have springs right here, why buy a new set?" so he used what he had. Guess what spring rates are most common in aftermarket coilover setups from all manufacturers for S13's? 8/6, my theory is that coz these rate springs came with the coilover setups, they where getting used more frequently and because of this more and more ppl decided that that was the way to go. Because of this and the fact that a vast majority of forum members seem to be afraid to find out what rates work for them, everybody just goes with "what jono/beau/whoever on the forums is running" the whole issue seems to perpetuate into these common shit fights we all tend to have.

the spring rate debate, the S13 front end debate and the tyre/wheel fitment debate seem to all fall into this catagory.

This bullshit that goes on between ppl on this site where ppl shoot others down that run against the grain is a joke. This is an awesome site that is full of some knowledgable ppl and thats what has kept me here and contributing for the last 2-3yrs ive been here. But this crap that goes on will do nothing good for the site. People will leave and we'll end up with another boostlosing.com or ns.com but for sprinters.

End rant

[Sam-Q]

driftke70: I don't have a stop watch going when I drive through hills but I do get pissed off if I have to get off the throttle because the car is bouncing sideways due to too stiff a springs. To add to that this was when (and still do) run externally adjustable dampeners, which didn't help. The dampening rate is dependent on the spring rate, not the comfort level. If the compression rate on the dampener is softened up to make for a more comfortable ride then the car will have a "bouncy" effect which I think causes uneven and unpredictable weight distribution among other things and will fell like you have a worn out set of "shocks".

As for me "not doing it right", any loss of traction means a loss of speed, weather it will mean getting off the throttle, applying the brakes or not being able to accelerate as fast out of the corner. If the fastest way around a corner was to hang it out then the F1 guys would be doing it. I do still have a rear spring rate problem that is causing roll oversteer but regardless my point still stands.

[letsgohunting]

or u have an incorrect setup, which samq did at the time, maybe still does.

Thanks for adding some more "jibber jabber" as u call it. With the 8/6 kg spring debate which i have kinda tried staying out of till now, when did going stiffer equal better handling? 8/6 is to stiff for circuit/grip orientated driving, plain and simple. I'm not on my own with this, sharpeto racing have a fleet of 4 corollas, 2 KE55 shape 2 KE20, the stiffest springs they run at event the tightest circuits with lots of sharp directional change is 400lbs on the front. There are also a no. of race cars (AE86's) around the country that do circuit work, the hardest that they tend to run is also in the region of 400lbs front 200lbs rear for the tightest work. These are all class leading cars that are well developed and set quick times, they no what works. If 8/6 was the way to go they would be doing that but they arent, plain and simple.

Also on the subject of 8/6 spring rates, something i noticed was that for ages the common setup was 6/4, everybody ran this a while back, then some bright spark decided that he would use a 2nd hand set of S13 coilovers in the front of his *E7*/AE86 and thought, "i have springs right here, why buy a new set?" so he used what he had. Guess what spring rates are most common in aftermarket coilover setups from all manufacturers for S13's? 8/6, my theory is that coz these rate springs came with the coilover setups, they where getting used more frequently and because of this more and more ppl decided that that was the way to go. Because of this and the fact that a vast majority of forum members seem to be afraid to find out what rates work for them, everybody just goes with "what jono/beau/whoever on the forums is running" the whole issue seems to perpetuate into these common shit fights we all tend to have.

the spring rate debate, the S13 front end debate and the tyre/wheel fitment debate seem to all fall into this catagory.

This bullshit that goes on between ppl on this site where ppl shoot others down that run against the grain is a joke. This is an awesome site that is full of some knowledgable ppl and thats what has kept me here and contributing for the last 2-3yrs ive been here. But this crap that goes on will do nothing good for the site. People will leave and we'll end up with another boostlosing.com or ns.com but for sprinters.

End rant


I'm sure for an all rounder drift/track fun car 8/6 is fine. I had 8/6kg setup in one of my ae86s and yes, I did find it to be too stiff in all circumstances. Right now in my s14 I have much softer springs - actually shitty king springs which are only about 3.5-4kg front and about 2-3kg rear and combined with koni dampers it actually feels really good to drive and drift. It will be too soft for circuit, but I think on my s14 around 6.5 front and 5 rear would be perfect.

I'm in the camp that prefers softer springs. You need to the car to lean, and you can adjust that with adj swaybars. The actual bump absorbing comes from the shock/spring combination, but provided you have a good damper, the spring should be only as stiff as it needs to be. The moment you go too stiff it becomes bouncy and takes away weight transfer characteristics. I've found very stiff cars can be very vague in terms of weight transfer characteristics. The front of a very stiff spring setup nearly always skips laterally across the road instead of leaning and therefore using the tyres.

What was interesting was when I had my laurel with JIC magic coilovers. The spring setup was 8kg front and 6kg rear. I was friends with a guy whose dad built suspension for high end racing cars at the time, and we had access to his shelf of eibach springs. After taking him for a drive through some good roads we both agreed the front was too stiff - wasn't allowing any lean in the corners. After measuring spring length and diameter their were only a few that would fit, and just for gags I decided to try the 5kg eibachs for the front. So 5kg front, 6kg rear. Result - Beautiful. Changed the feel of the car and made it completely neutral. I was able to drive quickly with safe slight understeer or switch and get tail loose just through weight transfer techniques. This is the way cars should be. I've noticed a lot of the drift guys have extremely high sprung cars and don't finesse the cars into a slide - they manhandle them into a slide. Instead of using handling characteristics to initiate or maintain a slide they will just handbrake or pop the clutch into a powerslide. I have a sneaking suspicion the reason for this is their very very stiff setups - just too stiff and unresponsive to subtle weight shift techniques so they rip the handbrake instead.

Note: This is just my opinion, and what works for me - I'm not saying anyone else is wrong.

[driftke70]

400 pounds is like 7.2 kg or something, really plucking at straws, an 8kg spring will be too stiff for a car thats not braced and has shitty tyres. end of story, as soon as you start going stiffer in the sway bars that rate can come down. I will be running 8 and 6 in my car, but i have a heavier 3sgte up the front. There are benifits to be had from going softer in a spring, but not that soft, you should start looking to get some sort of rigidity in your shell, and getting decent track and tyres. If you have a narrow track in the front end, it completely changes the leverage on the suspensions. Having a standard control arm with nrcas and 7kg springs, would almost be the same as rona arms, rcas and an 8kg spring. Not only does it change the load, but the rate of the load.

If f1 cars slid, they would wear out their tyres too fast. Any sport where wearing tyres isnt an issue, they slide, speedway, rally, including tarmac. A tyre makes its most grip about 3% past its grip threshold. Theres a difference between ripping an e break into a corner and balancing a car around a track. Even nascar get a bit skittish.

letsgohunting, your laurel was so soggy the interior light came on when you cornered hard, if it was properly braced, you could have gained from those springs.

Im all about softer springs for basic setups, but if you want to go all out, you kinda need em, i prefer softer springs and stiffer sway bars for drift, so the car still slides but has some sort of damp for hitting bumps mid slide to make it more controllable. But theres more involved.

[letsgohunting]

letsgohunting, your laurel was so soggy the interior light came on when you cornered hard, if it was properly braced, you could have gained from those springs.


Aye she was loose as a hookers asscrack. Still, I'm not a fan of anything stiffer than 8 and 6 for a road car. That was sort of my point - I was saying it in my context - I like my cars to drive on the road daily AND do well on the track.

9kg is still too stiff for the front of a road car running road tyres - even good ones. Remember wills cefiro? It was only running 8kg front and 6kg rear springs with some insane stiffshit dampers. It was so stiff that his girlfriend had to hold her boobs when she rode in the passenger seat so they didn't get sore from bouncing. That car was WAY too stiff, and as a result was super super super hairy to drive even on really nice roads on the street.

Moreso, Learning to drive a car fast or drift using weight balance techniques means loading and unloading sides - front and back, left and right with the cars weight while cornering. Its the (obvious) principal of being able to ease the weight from one side to the other (side to side while strictly cornering + rear to front if braking) that requires a certain amount of lean to be able to "load up" the tyres as gently as possible as to ease them to their threshold. The harsher the transition is, the lower the tyres threshold grip is. This means by being a subtle/smooth driver the overall grip threshold of the car increases equaling more overall speed, even in drifting as opposed to the rough driver whose grip threshold is lower because he isn't loading up the tyres smoothly enough. The thing is, having too stiff springs or suspension in general can have the same effect as being a rough driver because it doesn't allow the lean that a tyre needs to be able to place the weight on one side or corner. Instead it keeps the weight more evenly distributed across all four tyres (which sounds good but isn't) - makes it skate-ish.

Im not saying soft is good, I'm saying that too stiff is bad. The thing is that it's much more common for people to go too stiff altogether. Most 9/7kg setups in s13/14/15 and some ae86 8/6 setups are that way. Out of two mediocre extremes of setups in a street car - slightly too stiff and slightly too soft, I would definitely pick the softer one every time because I can adjust my driving to suit it, nulling any big flaws in the setup. If the setup is too stiff however, especially in a car using street tyres - even bridge re001s/semi slicks etc, it doesn't allow the primary function of a good sport suspension in the first place - the ability to transfer weight firmly and communicatively from left to right, rear to back. Thus the driver isn't able to correct that flaw through their driving.

As far as suspension setups go, at the moment I don't go much past bushes, dampers, springs swaybars and some adjustable arms to correct alignment because my driving style is able to adapt to any minor flaws the setup may have and compensate for it.

[letsgohunting]

I have to add to that - How a person drives is car is much more important than specifics in a suspension setup. All thats needed at the street/track level is a good basic platform and if the persons driving skills are up to it he can do wonderful things with that, without having to spend massive amounts of money. IMO again.

[sr_rolla]

Driftke70, why is having extra front track a good thing? A *E7*/AE86 is blessed with a perfect width to length ratio (1/1.7) why make the care oversquare? this is one of the reasons why a AE/KE that has a wider track is more unstable at speeds than a stock track car.

The best way to set up a car according to the likes of fred puhn and carrol smith is to run the softest setup that you can for a given job or to start soft and work up to what you need. The basic idea is to get a set of known rate springs that are softer than you need, then gradually step up the rates until u reach a good ballance point. If you do it the other way round (to hard and work back) the car will be a pig until you get to the ballpark of what you want. Much like letsgohunting explained, you are generally able to feel and drive around faults at a lower spring rate, you cant do that if its to hard. Then once you have figured out a decent rate that you are happy with, you tune the setup with damper settings and sway bars to perfect the setup. You dont just run what everybody else runs, thats just stupid.

Also, NRCA's are f*#king stupid, the destroy the scrub radius and put the wrong kinda loads on the balljoint.

As a final point, when it really comes down to it, KE/AE's dont have any real major suspension flaws, the unequal four link, the front castor rods, and the scrub radius problems are the worst things wrong with them. They arent as flexible as people seem to thing (particularly *E7*'s), i have 350lb front springs and 200lb rears (a little to stiff but i have semis so i can use it) and no bracing whatsoever, i drive my car hard, as anybody that has been in my car can attest and i have never felt any flexing of real note. The front moves around a little but thats the worst part. These cars are stiff as hell compared to alot of late model stuff, my best mates GTiR comes to mind. It had coilovers a little stiffer than mine and shithouse tyres (u could see canvas for a while there) and it flexed so bad it wasnt funny, everytime you drove it hard the window and door seals would creak and on real rough roads the rear side window would hit there frames.

What im trying to say is that generally, most of the setup stuff done to these cars is crap, its all just a copy of what somebody else has done and knowone really thinks about what they are doing. You need some softness in the suspension, u need some plyability in the chassis and you dont need a stupid wide track otherwise things dont work properly and eventually things fracture and break. This is the main reason why i setup the Suspension Setup Thread on the old forum, WORK SHIT OUT FOR YOURSELVES!! dont do things just coz i say or or anybody else says, do some research, maybe do a little maths and really work out what will work, experiment, stuff with different setting but dont just run what beau yates runs so u can say u have a sick sprinter drifter the same as beau.

End rant

[driftke70]

high speed stability has never been a concern, so track has endless benifits,

i havnt found my suspension to be too stiff, end of story. I didnt buy 8 and 6 because thats what i specifically wanted, they came with the coil overs, but through various changes in my car they ARE going to be the right rate.

My car still had roll and was able to transfer, my tyres always gripped when i wanted them to, it wasn't too stiff in general to drive, actually notably comfier to drive than my standard 07 hilux. It was responsive, progressive and versatile for everything i tried. Your car is yours, mine is mine. Only difference is im not telling people how to set up their cars.

[sr_rolla]

Um neither am i, i clearly said in my post and i quote

"WORK SHIT OUT FOR YOURSELVES!! dont do things just coz i say or or anybody else says, do some research, maybe do a little maths and really work out what will work, experiment, stuff with different setting but dont just run what beau yates runs so u can say u have a sick sprinter drifter the same as beau."

I cant understand why you are even in here telling people what works or not, the title clearly states that this is a grip and tarmac racing section, not a drift section, and as your sig clearly says, you have a drift KE70. The fact that you even mentioned using NCRCA's shows me that you dont know as much about this stuff as you say you do, you come in here and in your 1st post you winge about the "jibber Jabber" have a go at samQ's driving. Then in your second and last post you say that a wider track is better, then you say that having more track causes different leverage in the suspension system. Whilst this is partially correct but it has absolutely nothing to do with the spring rate unless you run massive offset wheels, LCA's have nothing to do with the spring rate as the whole strut gets moved out, spring and all, so there is no more leverage on the spring than in a standard track situation.

Also, have u wieghed your motor? do you know 100% for sure that is heaps heavier than a twincam? Do you run semi slicks? If not, than comparing a 400lb spring on a semi slick shod race car to your car with an 8kg spring and a road derived tyre is like comparing chalk and cheese.

Look, u have a drifter, good for u, not my cup of tea but great, i have a trackday car with rego plates, i have no interest in drift and keep my nose way out of any drift related areas. You will not find a post ANYWHERE drift related by me, this is coz i know sweet f a about setting up a drifter and never claimed to know anything on the subject. I keep my nose out of where it does not belong, you should do the same.

[fantapants]

to be fair sr rolla... u have led the cry of 8 and 6 is just plain stupid.

and drift keto does know his shit and no he is not only into drift... he has said many times the car is being built for driving, all kinds of going fast. all he is really pointing out is spring rates are not the be all and end all people are making it out to be.

And he never said nrca are good.... he was refering to the leverage effect extending track has on the spring rates and compression speed.

and i dont usually disagree with u sam, but to say ANY loss of traction is a loss of speed is just very VERY wrong.

[sr_rolla]

I do think 8/6 is stupid, i run a full weight KE70 with semi's and 8/6 is way to stiff to use the stuff ive got, even if i got more track it would still be to much. Yet it is being said (im not just accusing driftke70 here) that running 8/6 with big sway bars, plenty of track and super stretched tyres under a light weight ke/ae is the way to go, its simply not. Ive bitten my tongue on the subject for ages but its been really getting to me of late. Its a shit setup.

Thats not to say that mine is awesome, mine handles like arse atm as a few on here will know, im just saying 8/6 is a shit setup and i have tangable proof that im right on this. Like ive already said, some of the quickest AE86's in the country dont run more than a 400lb spring, they are light weight, have full cages, semi slicks and run on smooth race tracks and even then they only run a 400lb spring when they are at the tightest most demanding circuits with lots of directional change. Then you get a few guys on a forum saying that heavier rate is awesome in a light weight keto/ae with stretched street tyres, little to no bracing and on shitty rough roads. I mean it doesnt take a rocket scientist to figure out whos the guy whos done the research and who has no idea.

Also, whilst that comment sam made about a car being quickest with no traction loss may be wrong, u want all 4 wheels to slip at once, not just the rear as sam was describing. Snappy oversteer might b fun but its not quick.

[letsgohunting]

I think you'll find that an 8/6 spring ratio will probably suit driftke70s car well enough... It has a full weld in custom cage, runs semi slicks, equal length trailing arms, 3sgte, W box, F series diff and is generally braced to all hell. It's pretty much built to be a track car so there aren't any problems with the stiffer setup. I'm sure he could go softer and get faster times around a track but he's just building it as a do-it-all fun machine. With that level of components in the car a stiffer 8/6 setup should be fine.

I agree that huge track is detrimental to performance though.

[driftke70]

you'll also find that a stretched street tyre has more give than a semi slick and can take a little of the harshness out, as mentioned, my car is built to do everything, i never once mentioned that i liked nrcas merely compared to comparable setups, that would have similar camber and how the moment would change on the spring.

400 pound springs are 7.2kg, in stripped fast race cars, hardly an argument off a 8kg spring in a full bodied e chassis with a wound strut brace.

You say your car is handling poorly at the moment, in comparison to what?

Most track guys like soft springs because the better semis and basically all slicks have a wandering tread effect, when a spring fights a tyre too much it makes the steering doughy as all buggery, but by making the suspension softer than the doughyness of the tyre you can get rid of it a little.

If i was making a full balls on the line drift car to go compete with da id probably even have a little stiffer, maybe 9 and 6.

[Sam-Q]

and i dont usually disagree with u sam, but to say ANY loss of traction is a loss of speed is just very VERY wrong.

I didnt explain it very well, I was reffering to the whole initial D "racing" and that oversteering around a corner normally is a pretty slow way to go.

[fantapants]

I didnt explain it very well, I was reffering to the whole initial D "racing" and that oversteering around a corner normally is a pretty slow way to go.

fair cop then sam :D drifting is NOT the fastest a car can o.... but loos of traction can be a very quick way to drive at times.

also for those who "dont have anything to do with the drift scene" dont forget for the guys who do this alot, the cars are set to be as grippy as possible. You need the grip for speed. especially here in oz where you are judged on smoke as much as anything, tyre speed equals smoke.

As a point of refernce, i was looking back over some older auto salon mags, with the first of the circuit battle issues.

Ferdz was supposed to drive the s15 but it wasnt sorted yet, so they used his unchanged s13 drift car. His times were strong. within a second of a track evo7 and track only sti.he was also significantly faster han a few of the gtr's and track spec s15's and was within 2 seconds of some very nice track only demo cars, the z32 from unique autosportssouthern motorsports exige.

this highlights something that a lot of people are missing.... the driver is the ultimate factor. :)

but sr i wasnt havoing a dig at you, just that your post said you werent telling people what to do... but also telling them if the do something you disagree with they are stupid. this is tantamount to the same thing dude :)

[sr_rolla]

Firstly, aimed at driftke70, my car handles crap in relation to a 70's falcon atm, shocks are absolutley shot and the springs are up the shit (not the rates tho, lets just say never buy kings progressive coilovers)

At Fantapants, i never said that anybody was stupid for running that setup, i said it was a crap setup, and that people should work shit out for themselves instead of getting all there info off the forums. I also dont have any problems with being wrong or disagreed with, i have openly said, i know sfa about drift and cant comment on drift setups. Ive also have plenty of ppl disagree with me on here b4 and we still get along fine. I feel, that from my experiences, and those of friends, that 8/6 is and always will be a crap setup for the street, period. But trying to tell you guys that is like bashing my head against a brick wall. I cant be arsed with this shit any more so im out, have fun.

[fantapants]

hey i didnt mean to badger you.... no need to get precious about it. if you say you are welcome to disagreement then kool. I personally run 8 and 6. i dont have a great deal of experiance. so i cant add too much to the debate right now, other than even when i talk my mrs into driving in the car, she doesnt complain about it being stupid uncomfortable or anything.

and in terms of mountain driving.... i have crap rear tyres and a bad wheel alignment, so springs being too hard to noticabley judge a bit of bounce is the least of my concerns.

not trying to run you out of town man, just trying to add my 5 cents lol

[driftke70]

Firstly, aimed at driftke70, my car handles crap in I feel, that from my experiences, and those of friends, that 8/6 is and always will be a crap setup for the street, period.


they are light weight, have full cages, semi slicks and run on smooth race tracks and even then they only run a 400lb spring when they are at the tightest most demanding circuits with lots of directional change.[QUOTE]


With the 8/6 kg spring debate which i have kinda tried staying out of till now, when did going stiffer equal better handling? 8/6 is to stiff for circuit/grip orientated driving, plain and simple.

i think you need to understand, what might not be perfect for the street, does not necessarily matter to people who track their cars regularly, What works for someone on the street, wont bother someone who doesnt go to the track.

I do believe 8 and 6 can be a little on the stiff side for most people, but if they enjoy it who cares. It might have been the only thing that could get a hold of cheaply, or what ever, most drift, it works good for drift. But in the end im not sure what dampeners you have driven in, but when i run mine rock hard my car sails on the street like its made of silk and the springs don't fight at all.

[ke70dave]

yet again another fight has become of a thread.....

i remember reading somewhere that the quickest way around a corner was with a very small amount of sliding, so not purely "grip".

but apparently its such a small amount that its too difficult to control (especially when you are racing with other cars on small tracks) thats its not worth striving for it.

i dunno how much merit it has, but seems reasonable.

[focus_7]

Probably the fastest way, but not the best for tire conservation I reckon.

[s14seriesII]

rofl.... ive found the only difference between lap times the same as a circuit skyline GTR and drifting is wether or not i pull the handbrake on and how much throttle i try to use coming out of a corner.. so called (too stiff for drift) springs have been awesome in circuit use, lap times quicker than a 400hp gtir pulsar on semi slicks and soo many other so called circuit cars that are really quick.

[s14seriesII]

yet again another fight has become of a thread.....

i remember reading somewhere that the quickest way around a corner was with a very small amount of sliding, so not purely "grip".

but apparently its such a small amount that its too difficult to control (especially when you are racing with other cars on small tracks) thats its not worth striving for it.

i dunno how much merit it has, but seems reasonable.

i find this to be true 4 wheel slides only slightly in a rwd car but tyres over heat after 4 laps or so

[Rice86]

im into Grip =]