PDA

View Full Version : what 4A for drift?



Tim.duncan
23rd April 2009, 04:03 PM
I was at the DA round last may at la la and the comentator said somthing intresting "drifting is really hard on your motor" ......."um der Tim".... Hear me out. The fact that your car will sit there at the start line, then sit on the limiter for half a track and get up to high temps, Taxi for half a track then sit there again where it will cool back down. you stay stationary for 2 min then do it all again. If you draw the round you do that all again again! the motor will go from one extream to the next and back again in a matter of 10 min. At the Da round lots of cars were pulling out due to engine problems or failure.

So i thought a descusion on "what 4A motor would be best for drift" would be intresting

looking into things like "powerfull enough" and just as important "reliability"

whats your experiance or opinion?

ae86hachiroku
23rd April 2009, 04:11 PM
Most will tell you, none of the 4A.

SR, 3S, F20, etc.

But a AE92 smallport 4AG with 272 cams and high compression would be reliable enough, providing you with enough power (maybe not enough as those big hp cars) but you'll definately be having fun and always out there.

marvis
23rd April 2009, 04:55 PM
Here we go...

Konakid
23rd April 2009, 05:00 PM
Seee ayyy bro

ae86hachiroku
23rd April 2009, 05:11 PM
elle has one?

OMG866
23rd April 2009, 06:31 PM
lol ok well as far as reliability goes. 4age are awsome. even stock ones jsut make sure they have oil and they will go for ages. they also make big power IF YOU HAVE THE MONEY. i kno of a person that is close to have 360rwk in a 20v turbo. but the motor more than likely ows him over 35g. If you want cheap power jsut go SR. spend another 4 grand on it and it will drift all day everyday.

worked
23rd April 2009, 06:36 PM
whatever 4a has the best life support system (oil cooler, radiator, fresh oil, coolant, prepared well etc) would be my bet
4a's love it tho, go forever, f*cking good engine
miss my 20v, hate my ca

Simon-KE70
23rd April 2009, 06:39 PM
4ac for DA

but as for drift being hard on the motor... well yes that part is true, however those who thrash cold engines deserve to have engine issues.... ive always warmed my motor up to operating temp (and oil is up to temp also) before thrashing... same goes for the diff and box....

then once you park it in then go out again,... it takes all of 30 seconds of normal running (idling then leaving the pits, then the form up area and onto the track) and its back up to temp in no time.

orange32
23rd April 2009, 08:51 PM
4agze

I have 2 friends who drift with them. Both stock (front mount cooler and exhaust) and both will drift QR in third fine, without bogging down or being ruthless on the drivetrain and motor.

FAST EDDIE
23rd April 2009, 09:51 PM
i wnet form 4agze to 4agte to next 4agte to next 4agte to built 4agte to 4aSR20 cut out the middle man put in an sr20

Simon-KE70
23rd April 2009, 10:35 PM
+1 SR

even in stock form they are so reliable, + torque + power

84coupe
24th April 2009, 12:20 AM
4age FTW

LittleRedSpirit
24th April 2009, 09:16 AM
gte or gtfo

doony
24th April 2009, 10:50 AM
rule31

ae86
24th April 2009, 12:27 PM
4a drift ? wut.

Tim.duncan
24th April 2009, 01:31 PM
i wnet form 4agze to 4agte to next 4agte to next 4agte to built 4agte to 4aSR20 cut out the middle man put in an sr20


why so many 4agte's? what sort of problems did you run into. what sort of power were you making with them?

LittleRedSpirit
24th April 2009, 01:54 PM
Try this.
4afe bottom end, bigport head, turbo manifold and turbo, intercooler. Gives a boostable compression ratio. Thrash the bottom end for 6 months then when it blows, repeat. Its the poor mans 4agte.

Or go nuts and build a nice forged 4A motor.

Its been said many times, 4a motors are try hard drift motors. If it were me Id go more capacity first up. But Id stick with Toyota. Beallys onto a winner with the 3sgte.

kaibeecee
24th April 2009, 03:18 PM
4a drift ? wut.

do you ever post anything remotely constructive ? wut.

3s is the ideal setup, but SR parts are too easy/cheap to turn down...

worked
24th April 2009, 07:08 PM
heading = what 4A for drift
i'd either go with ken on this one with the smallport option
or i'd go silvertop 20v, which i did! strong, rev, don't need huge maintenance schedules and are easy to work on and have enough to have fun in
mine had no problem top of third scandos and holding third easy with a basic setup (ajps springs, agx shocks, ps arms, lock spacer, 15x8s, haltech e6x)
was holding the same pace as 200rwkw nissans whilst sliding.
love how it turned instantly into a 3s/4a/sr debate
i'm sure if he wanted maximum tyre chalkage he'd be looking into those avenues, but he doesn't seem to be
don't forget power is directly related to heat, the more power you make the more heat you produce, and 4a's dont make any power! bonus!!!

shichi~
24th April 2009, 10:16 PM
9AGZZTTE yo! dats twin super turbo charged !!!!

Konakid
24th April 2009, 11:31 PM
Lawl!!!

Intense
25th April 2009, 03:47 PM
Gze is clearly the best choice. You have a nice fat torque range and still tons of top end power. Still not enough power? Chuck on a pulley kit and you'll be blowing t50's like no tommorow. GZE's come with oil squirters, huge fat rods and an ecu that can handle being boosted up and run aggressive cams as well. Still not enough power? Turbo it and all will be solved.

sundee
25th April 2009, 04:50 PM
really any 4a that can make the power reliably is good for drift.. i thank anyway.. weather it be turbo/supercharged or NA.
small/ big port 16v .. i would howerver stick with the 7 rib bottom end with squirters for obvious reasons, 20v NA silver or black turbo/ or not.. build it right and ull have fun for a long time... or u could..

[QUOTE=LittleRedSpirit;69771]Try this.
4afe bottom end, bigport head, turbo manifold and turbo, intercooler. Gives a boostable compression ratio. Thrash the bottom end for 6 months then when it blows, repeat. Its the poor mans 4agte.

Or go nuts and build a nice forged 4A motor.QUOTE]

and also good RAd, oil cooler, or intercooler, and some half decent oil changed regularly and u whould have a healthy engine.. and a good tune will hold the whole recepe together

pen15
25th April 2009, 06:03 PM
here is a solution don't drive a sprinter or rolla if u want an sr20 get an s13 4a suits the sprinters and rollas sr20s suit s13 keep it that way its much simpler that way

marlon
26th April 2009, 01:19 PM
attack heat and engine stress with whatever motor you have- oil cooler, bigger rad/thermofan etc and change oils regulary. best you can do with ANY motor.

sundee
26th April 2009, 06:48 PM
im glad we think alike

redsprinter
27th April 2009, 10:01 AM
what do you guys think of a 20v blacktop ??? compared to the 20v silvertop ?

Robo86
27th April 2009, 03:05 PM
4ag with some cams and good cooling, then learn to drive rather than get more power

worked
27th April 2009, 04:37 PM
any 4ag! if it struggles look into some mint rears such as classics/dark horses and savas

letsgohunting
27th April 2009, 09:30 PM
only two letters of the alphabet that you need to know my friend... "4" and "k"

driftke70
28th April 2009, 12:50 AM
water to air intercooled 3s, but im biased.

driftke70
28th April 2009, 12:53 AM
only two letters of the alphabet that you need to know my friend... "4" and "k"

haha damn fucking straight, bags the clutch in 3rd

also forgot to mention, if i didnt get a taste for power i would probably go 4agze, seen some setups pull well day in day out, in reality dont need any more power for hills/grip/track/slides and the reliability is there, and they have a nice power curve, sort of.

Ae86sam
28th April 2009, 02:18 PM
I started with a std bigport 4a and drove it hard.. Never really had any issues with it breaking at all..

Moved onto a 4agze with a t04b turbo on it, an aftermarket supra intercooler and a oil cooler.. 45+ events including a DA round at eastern creek with Josh "Motor Killer" Young behind the wheel, Alot of short track rounds, 4 days in the boiling hot indy circuit and a few demos here and there.. Not once have i had any issues with it and I've lost bugger all comp and 2 kw's over 18 months( now 145kw) ...

Has to be the most reliable motor package ever.. :)

Tim.duncan
28th April 2009, 02:40 PM
Has to be the most reliable motor package ever.. :)[/QUOTE]

NO JOKE! WOW that is reliable!!! what ecu are you running? is the ze stock or do you have cams,head work ect ect?
and how much boost to make 145kw?

driftke70
28th April 2009, 04:28 PM
yeah sams your car has run well for a while, my 4a screamed its narks off for almost 2 years, and is still running strong in another car, only problem i ever really had was a f'ed battery lead, which caused some coughing and farting, a flywheel come loose, thats about it. But there is a need for a little more, like you can get around in a 4age, i believe there is no point modifying them, just keep em near standard and rape em, then when the time comes just have something else ready to go in like a ze, or a 4agte or 3s or something,
there is something about 20v i dont like, not sure, just never really been impressed by one, like they are cool, but even if i had excess cash i would always have a 16.

Matt-AE86
28th April 2009, 05:19 PM
A fresh 4age with good compression will do you well.

Dom86
28th April 2009, 06:37 PM
4AGZE FTW.
I've never thashed a 4age for long periods of time, but my GZE has stood up to 2 years of 'drift only driving (abuse)' and still going strong. Including 2 back to back days in collie's 35 to 40 degree days.
It has a standard water oil cooler only, cooling a standard motor.
Forged internals standard F T W!
They are a great reliable beginners motor, with more potential when needed. ie, turbo upgrade.

lo_rolla
28th April 2009, 06:46 PM
I plan to use my AE86 for every thing (drift, track, hills, hill climb, hard parking - might even see what it does on the 1/4). I also plan to keep it all AE86 (minus the brakes).

I'm building a 200+hp NA motor for it, does any one have experience with drifting that sort of 4A. I only hacked it stock, no proper drifting, just a few corners through the industrial estate sort of thing and I found it fine.

So how am I gonna go with no power under 5000, shit?

ae86hachiroku
28th April 2009, 10:50 PM
lo_rolla.

The power is not fantastic under 5000, but it still gets you going, life really starts after 5500rpm. It's more than enough power to have a shit load of fun and be competitive, though you have to push really hard.

obey wan boenny
29th April 2009, 12:30 AM
I'd go 20v or 4agze if i where building a car up, somthing stock that makes good power seems better/easier to me than modding a 16v.

Ae86sam
29th April 2009, 11:50 AM
NO JOKE! WOW that is reliable!!! what ecu are you running? is the ze stock or do you have cams,head work ect ect? and how much boost to make 145kw?


I'm not a fan of built motors..? Very few people know how to do it reliably.. (Motormans S13's motor = super strong) And its a rare thing to have them work for an extended period without hicups.. Josh went through a couple of built internal 4a's pretty quickly..

Mine is a fully standard 4agze with a HKS manifold (cast baby:thumbup: ) and a T04b turbo.. I'm running an Adaptronic with a safe tune.. Its boosting at about 12-14 pound i think.. We changed the bearings when we moved the motor to my car but it was completely unnessisary..

Robo86
29th April 2009, 12:56 PM
^^ i wanna do that next sam when im off my p's and got some money. it just WORKS

driftke70
29th April 2009, 01:19 PM
i hate opening engines.

Ae86sam
29th April 2009, 02:00 PM
^^ i wanna do that next sam when im off my p's and got some money. it just WORKS

Thats the ticket mate.. Do your time in the NA beast then move to my sort of setup and you'll be great.. Just make sure to upgrade the running gear to keep that reliability through the whole car. :)



i hate opening engines.

Yar. It lets the factory magic out..

The main part of the theory is that toyota spend 100's of 1000's of dollars on R & D, who the fuck am i to say they are wrong lol..

ae86
29th April 2009, 03:12 PM
do you ever post anything remotely constructive ? wut.

3s is the ideal setup, but SR parts are too easy/cheap to turn down...

stop being a dickhead and taking my jokes serious,
4a is good for learning ofcourse but if you want to be competative it takes a fair bit of money to make a 4a keep up to others,

fly ryder
29th April 2009, 10:58 PM
only two letters of the alphabet that you need to know my friend... "4" and "k"

hahah no one let me know "4" is now a letter...

gte is the way i think, mine hasnt been thrashed massive amounts but has also held up drifting/racing on collie's hot days and that includes driving to and from events which is a 45min drive

R&D Mechanical
2nd May 2009, 12:57 PM
You want torque to drift, 4AGZE has alot of torque.

Cheeper way would be SR20brodet

hachi_dk
6th May 2009, 08:49 PM
theres no doubt that the most reliable thing is a manual v8.
then it would be an sr20's, although i've heard from friends that rb20's rev harder and make more torque? anyone with experience in these please elaborate coz im only going based on gossip.
cheers fil

Simon-KE70
6th May 2009, 08:57 PM
rb20's rev harder and are more reliable then a SR but they dont have more torque. saying that manual v8's is the most reliable set up is such a broad statement that its just going to make you look like a dickhead

70XIN
6th May 2009, 09:35 PM
^ In QLD it's the other way around .. every drift day at LEAST three RB's die, one CA (they aren't THAT common anymore), and only occasionally an SR

hachi_dk
6th May 2009, 09:36 PM
overall v8's = more reliable

driftke70
6th May 2009, 09:47 PM
ive seen some rb20's take an ass beating and never die, have seen sr's treated well and die, in the goldie area there are a few people with ceffys and stuff who go through rb's pretty quick cause they dont know what they are doing, seen some dudes go through a handful of engines with basically no drive time, all almost standard. Dont know how they do it but they do.

Tim.duncan
7th May 2009, 09:16 AM
i am very intrested in this 4Av8? i was under the impression every 4A ever built was only a 1600 4banger???

letsgohunting
7th May 2009, 01:35 PM
there is something about 20v i dont like, not sure, just never really been impressed by one, like they are cool, but even if i had excess cash i would always have a 16.

a good 20v is really good, quite a bit better than your run of the mill 16v. I there theres a whole lot of little tricks you have to do to get them to run to their full potential in a swapped 86. I went in one in particular that was a monster and would have no problem bagging the rear wheels on QR straight.

sun_moon
7th May 2009, 01:40 PM
i am very intrested in this 4Av8? i was under the impression every 4A ever built was only a 1600 4banger???

##### whaaaaa ??

ae71neo
7th May 2009, 04:49 PM
The V8 everyone is talking about is the 1UZ. Not a 4a.

letsgohunting
7th May 2009, 06:43 PM
rb20's rev harder and are more reliable then a SR but they dont have more torque.

Agree with everything but the torque thing - RB20s have more torque than sr20s. Just my seat of the pants experience.

letsgohunting
7th May 2009, 06:44 PM
^ In QLD it's the other way around .. every drift day at LEAST three RB's die, one CA (they aren't THAT common anymore), and only occasionally an SR

Bullshit.

Rb's are super strong motors. When an RB dies it's because of the retard using it doing something drastically wrong.

letsgohunting
7th May 2009, 07:41 PM
To answer the OP, I'd go a 4agze for drift.

For everything else, 20v on aftermarket ecu.

Hen may possibly be a nut
7th May 2009, 08:28 PM
My opinion is that any 4A treated reasonably will be incredibly reliable even for drift. Sure you can talk about 7rib blocks and oil squirters, but even without that you will not kill a stock or near stock 4A drifting unless you have done something stupid, or it has just got very very very tired.

Factory built = reliable. Also if it has already done 200,000km and is still going alright it'll most likely do plenty more.

Hen

Ae86sam
8th May 2009, 05:25 PM
overall v8's = more reliable


LOL... You'll definatly have to show me when this MYSTICAL occurance happens...

Your obviously extremely deluded..

I teamed with Josh from the time he put his 'first' 1uz in his car and also lived with him for a year.. The stockpile of 1uz's under my house then said your theory has MASSIVE holes in it..

We did the same amount of events (maybe he did 1 more) over a 14 month period and he was on his 4th 'more reliable' V8 and i was still on my first..? Both had about the same results with many event and series podiums..

Just giving you the real life experience..

Hen may possibly be a nut
8th May 2009, 07:16 PM
^^ He wsan't talking about boat-anchor 1UZs though, he was referring to the masterpiece of engineering and reliability that is the 253. Now there's perfection.

driftke70
8th May 2009, 07:20 PM
those were the good old days, labouring rev building, poor torque, crappy build, those were some sweet donks,

but in all seriousness, nothing wrong with a turbo 4a if the compression is not too high, and you dont run stupid boost, and you set it up on a decent ecu. Last a long time,
some people just rebuild their engines without the knowledge of lots of little things, and they go bang.

sc14 on 4agze is a good thing, but i would rather save for a nice turbo setup.

shift_rook
8th May 2009, 07:24 PM
i've been thinkin bout chargin my 7a... either that or 20v head. the thing that i love bout chargers is the instant torque that comes out off them, no wait for a turbo to boost up

letsgohunting
8th May 2009, 07:56 PM
In any situation i'd rather have an n/a motor than a turbo motor. Never driven a 4agze but from what I hear they're similar to drive as the n/a 4a's in terms of response etc.

From my experience with turbo cars you're taking away enjoyment for outright speed/power.

Ae86sam
9th May 2009, 04:40 PM
In any situation i'd rather have an n/a motor than a turbo motor. Never driven a 4agze but from what I hear they're similar to drive as the n/a 4a's in terms of response etc.

From my experience with turbo cars you're taking away enjoyment for outright speed/power.

That may be your experience but its not really the point. It doesn't take away any enjoyment at all.? How could it?

I loved my 16v... And thoroughly enjoyed it.. And i really love my 4agte?

seek
9th May 2009, 05:25 PM
serious skids = money tree, 4agte, sr20,3sgte, etc

fun: 16v 4age. thrash it, thrash it harder. if something goes wrong look for the next wrecker motor.

but thats my view on things...

Ae86sam
10th May 2009, 06:36 PM
serious skids = money tree, 4agte, sr20,3sgte, etc

fun: 16v 4age. thrash it, thrash it harder. if something goes wrong look for the next wrecker motor.

but thats my view on things...


Fair call... :)

letsgohunting
10th May 2009, 07:15 PM
That may be your experience but its not really the point. It doesn't take away any enjoyment at all.? How could it?

I loved my 16v... And thoroughly enjoyed it.. And i really love my 4agte?

Yeah that was pretty much "me specific", was only offering that as personal opinion.
I've been biased by the e92 m3 I had to play with last weekend. Going back in to my s14 made it feel like I was pushing the accelerator pedal on a bowl of pudding. m3 - soooo much response.

sun_moon
11th May 2009, 12:15 AM
Yeah that was pretty much "me specific", was only offering that as personal opinion.
I've been biased by the e92 m3 I had to play with last weekend. Going back in to my s14 made it feel like I was pushing the accelerator pedal on a bowl of pudding. m3 - soooo much response.

noted

zookieboi
25th June 2009, 01:26 PM
ive got a bigport 86 and it just doesnt cut it for power. :/ my friend has a t24 + small skyline intercooler for 300 bucks so im considering going that option for more power. 5 psi max so my engine holds up. sounds like the cheapest option to me.probs 1k complete

Robo86
25th June 2009, 01:30 PM
bigport should cut it, keep practicing, use different final drive... its definitely workable (thats a given)

sun_moon
25th June 2009, 01:30 PM
agreed, turbo is far better value for money than doing cams and ITBs and other mods.

Robo.86... i think bigport power and torque flattens out far to early in the rev range.

zookieboi
25th June 2009, 01:50 PM
bigport should cut it, keep practicing, use different final drive... its definitely workable (thats a given)

Your probably right. although it could definately use more its just at the threshold right now. just has 4-2-1 headers and a 2.5 exhaust with hi flow cat. also has msd ignition system, im not sure if that would help with fuel burnage or anything.

ae86hachiroku
25th June 2009, 02:00 PM
With a 2.5 exhaust, you'd probably want to be using a 4-1 extractor, you've kind of got a mid range to top end setup, but not particularly good at both, you know these need to rev so that's the reason for saying go for a 4-1.

Lighter flywheel is very important as well. Better suspension/chassis setup will let you use more of it's power as well. Little things count for a underpowered 4AG.

Robo86
25th June 2009, 02:24 PM
yer lightweight flywheel + 4.77 really opens things up. youd be surprised

zookieboi
25th June 2009, 02:35 PM
oh yeah its got coil overs and better rear sway bar too. also a welded diff.
i reckon flywheel a tune up. it needs one and if i take some stuff out of the back it will fly. it already beats my friends vy s ute :D