4AGE 20V electric water pump

[Vezza]

Hi guys,
was just thinking to myself the other night about the fwd to rwd waterline conversion. I've seen quite a few ways on how to go about it, from relocating the thermostat and so on. But wouldn't it be just as simple, maybe cost a little more, to use an EWP Davies Craig water pump or equivalent to eliminate the need for a thermostat?

Just have a blanking plate with a channel cut out to redirect the flow where the thermostat would normally be and simply plum the electric water pump in somewhere. The blanking plate can then be drilled and tapped for the water temp sensors. As for the original water pump, the rotor can be removed, so it no longer pumps any water and may even increase the HP slightly, whilst still using the original 20V water pulley.

Yes this may cost a little more, but the ewp water pump should control engine temp much better and also free up the engine a little.
Am I missing anything here, like most of my hair brain schemes usually are? :D

[Jonny Rochester]

You can have a electric water pump if you want. As for it being easier to set up, I'm not sure. You still have to make a few fittings and find some hose.

You have to make a big water fitting on the front of the block where the water pump used to go. And of course a water fitting on the front of the head.

You can have the block with a channel cut in it up the back, but you can also drill a hole in the head and use a thin flat plate.

Maybe you could look at the old Formula Altantic waterpump for inspiration.

[Vezza]

Yep definitely will need hoses, pipes and what not. Although now that I think about it, I could probably just run the inlet and outlet hoses up to the blanking plate. Then I could blank off the original outlet house coming out of the head. If anyone can point out and flaws or improvements that'd be great.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/167692.jpg
This is my crappy interpretation of the back of a 20V head.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/167693.jpg
Now this is the setup I think would work... hopefully.

[rthy]

jonny: where can I find a pic of that formular atlantic pump? or any other parts for that matter?

vezza: please don't run external water lines, its a cime against nature! now seriously it would be easier to just do it properly, heres what you can do:

take the front half of the pump right off

make a plate to go in its place.

fit the davies craig pump in the bottom radiator hose (with a controller!)

fit the bypass plate, possibly with the sensors in it, ask kaizen for that one

modify the top water outlet to face up and foward, again kaizen garage do this pretty well.

hook it up and it should be ok

[Vezza]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Apr 6 2008, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=514191)</div>
jonny: where can I find a pic of that formular atlantic pump? or any other parts for that matter?

vezza: please don't run external water lines, its a cime against nature! now seriously it would be easier to just do it properly, heres what you can do:

take the front half of the pump right off

make a plate to go in its place.

fit the davies craig pump in the bottom radiator hose (with a controller!)

fit the bypass plate, possibly with the sensors in it, ask kaizen for that one

modify the top water outlet to face up and foward, again kaizen garage do this pretty well.

hook it up and it should be ok[/b]

Not sure if I'm quite following you. So you fit the pump to the bottom radiator outlet (cold water) then connect it to where? Because you said to blank the water pump and put a bypass plate at the back of the head, now there's only the small outlet pipe free.

If I run the pipes to the back of the head as shown, won't this make it identical to the stock setup, whereby cool water enters through the head?
As for taking the front half of the pump with the pulley off and fitting a blanking plate, is it possible to get a shorter accessories belt to suit?

[rthy]

ok put a pipe that goes from the back of the water pump to the bottom radiator hose then put the electric water pump in the middle of that.

block off the water oulet next to the exhuast flange

fit a bypass plate to the back of the head to bypass the water from one opeing to the other.

You could run external pipes but its a lot of screwing around

you would be able to get a shorter belt no problems at all

still want a functional heater?

[Vezza]

Half and half with the heater at this stage, will think about it later.
Yeah your way is definitely neater, but won't cold water run through the block first then up to the head passing the throttles and heating the intake air?

[rthy]

indeed your right, however I believe that the real world difference might be pretty small. But I shouldnt say I as I have no conclusive proof

[Vezza]

I remember reading the my acoustic web page, where the guy orginally had the water pumping through the block 1st and experienced over heating issues. But when he changed the waterlines to flow through the head then the block, the problem was solved.

Most of the aftermarket waterline conversion kits all seem to flow cool water through the head 1st as well.

Does anyone actually have any evidence to back up whether it does or does not make a difference? This car will be a half track half street car, so cooling will be a priority.

[rthy]

kaizen garage like me and many others all do the block first, all 16V engines are block first and thats counts for the formular atlantic engine.

Heres some comical info for you, i run a Hyundai radiator but no fan, I mean its there and all but it has never been run in 3 years because I never had a need. I have to sit it in 35 degree heat in traffic for it to heat up to half way.

I wish I could do a dyno run to see how much difference there is. The thing I can assure you of is that theres not reliability/cooling issues with either method if done right.

[slydar]

josh used one on his NA 16v as well as when it was turbo. i.e years reliably.. you should dig up his threads and see how he set it up/pm him for details. would be a good place to start from.

[Anthony]

Josh's ended up simply on with the key. After seeing how much power 20V's can make down at the 60 degree mark, I tend to agree.

[Vezza]

Sweet, thanks guys I'll have a look into it Josh's posts.
Just another thought though.... If you can imagine where the normal 20V water pump would be, there is a hole in the head which feeds the pump, and then a hole in the block where the water flows to, out of the pump. Wouldn't it be even easier (shorter piping to radiator) if you we're to reverse the flow, and have the water pump through the head 1st from that hole, then out of the original block inlet.

The diagram probably makes it alot easier to understand. Hope you don't mind me stealing your pic Sam ;)
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/167808.jpg

[rthy]

do you think theres much extra wear by running at a 60 degree temp?

Vezza: steal as many of my pics as you want, I don't mind. I was just about to say that you can't run the water that way because the pump can run want in that direction but I reminded myself that this is all about an electric pump. I think your idea is quite clever. There is a catch but its a managable one; the flow from the red line needs to go through the rear housing and then to the top radiator hose and of course the cold water from the bottom radiator outlet.

[slydar]

simplest would be water, from bottom rad' tank, into EWP, into back of water pump housing, (water pump removed and blanked off, maybe a channel in the blanking plate), through the head via a modified read housing that directs water from one coolant passage to the other, and back out of the hole you have labeled with the blue arrow.

pretty sure this is how josh's set up basically works.

from everything i have heard when discussion of EWP comes up, is that the EWP must not me hard mounted, otherwise it WILL fail. having it suspended in the lower radiator hose is the easiest way of achieving this.

sam i guess you could be right about the extra wear, but alot of after market thermostats are set to open around this temp ( 60*) even from companies like nismo (factory based tuning company). not saying its the completely correct thing to do based on this, but it does seem to be a common practice. worth considering though.

[rthy]

slydar: the setup you propose is pretty much what everyone is running, me included. However Vezza is proposing to do it back to front on purpose to once again make the head get the coldest water first, its an interesting concept.

With the wear rate its an interesting subject, any really rough estimations on power increase? I have read in a book about 3% to go form 85 to 60c but that was to do with go-carts so its a hard comparasin.

[yoshimitsu9]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Apr 8 2008, 12:45 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=514942)</div>
kaizen garage like me and many others all do the block first, all 16V engines are block first and thats counts for the formular atlantic engine.

Heres some comical info for you, i run a Hyundai radiator but no fan, I mean its there and all but it has never been run in 3 years because I never had a need. I have to sit it in 35 degree heat in traffic for it to heat up to half way.

I wish I could do a dyno run to see how much difference there is. The thing I can assure you of is that theres not reliability/cooling issues with either method if done right.[/b]

interesting you should say that your car wont warm up unless its standing still in high heat. are you running a thermo stat? mine runs the exact same way. it also cools down to around 1/4 when traving and doesnt move up or down no matter how hot or cold it is

[lo_rolla]

Hey, I knew there was something going down with 20V RWD waterpumps, but how does the silvertop block with big port head go in terms of water?

[Vezza]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Apr 8 2008, 03:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=515147)</div>
do you think theres much extra wear by running at a 60 degree temp?

Vezza: steal as many of my pics as you want, I don't mind. I was just about to say that you can't run the water that way because the pump can run want in that direction but I reminded myself that this is all about an electric pump. I think your idea is quite clever. There is a catch but its a managable one; the flow from the red line needs to go through the rear housing and then to the top radiator hose and of course the cold water from the bottom radiator outlet.[/b]


Yep the piping shouldn't be too much of a problem. But hopefully there isn't any problems running coolant backwards through the engine, don't really see how it would matter. Although, what if the original inlet passages are wider, ending with narrower passages as the coolant exits, which would help keep the pressure up. If the flow was reversed wouldn't the coolant pressure drop? Or am I off in the woods somewhere? :D

[rthy]

yosh, yeah i should be been more clear. What I mean to say it that it only gets too hot under those circimstances, otherwise just like you my thermostat holds it at 1/4 permenently.

vezza: i can't see a problem with your approach, if only we knew what difference to the head temp it made. what I might do is use an infared head gun and put it on the side of my head and then one with a stock layout and see the difference.

[choom78]

There is a KE25 that runs a EWP straight to the head with thermo stat and out via the block. Its a race car and not used for a daily but it does have a thermostat. Actually the benefit of his setup is he runs 4ac pulley's so gets lightened pulleys (compared to 4age) to drive alternator and gets more free'd hp :)

I would keep the thermostat though and retain the bypass system in tact. Relying on a single temp sensor and ewp for moderating temp control could cause fluctations and havoc. e.g. heat/cold shock.

[rthy]

lo_rolla: 20v bottom + 20v top means you just use all the original rwd gear on the 20v block. So basicly the original block then head cooling.

chhom: thats interesting but your not meant to use a thermostat with an EWP, it is meant to create the restrcition and the control that the thermostat does. Admitedly I don't trust it though.

[yoshimitsu9]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Apr 9 2008, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=515469)</div>
yosh, yeah i should be been more clear. What I mean to say it that it only gets too hot under those circimstances, otherwise just like you my thermostat holds it at 1/4 permenently.

vezza: i can't see a problem with your approach, if only we knew what difference to the head temp it made. what I might do is use an infared head gun and put it on the side of my head and then one with a stock layout and see the difference.[/b]

lovely just what i wanted to hear, I'm just trying to think back to justin from brisbanes 86, his always held at 1/2 way even while cruising around. so just must be different setups perhaps, fucks me

[rthy]

that should all come down to the thermostat and nothing else, if it runs hotter after that point the cooling system isnt keeping up.

[Vezza]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Apr 9 2008, 12:16 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=515469)</div>
yosh, yeah i should be been more clear. What I mean to say it that it only gets too hot under those circimstances, otherwise just like you my thermostat holds it at 1/4 permenently.

vezza: i can't see a problem with your approach, if only we knew what difference to the head temp it made. what I might do is use an infared head gun and put it on the side of my head and then one with a stock layout and see the difference.[/b]

Yeah that would be great to know the difference between head and block temps. Just logically thinking about it, you'd reckon the block would have to be a great deal hotter than the head.

If i remember correctly, power roughly increases 1% for every 4 degrees drop in air temp. So even if the head is only 20 deg cooler, and we'll say the air temp drops around 20 deg as well, there should be a 5% gain in power. If you say a 20V makes 120kw a 5% gain would put you at 126kw.

Then also take into consideration that the motor won't have to turn the water pump, which Davies Craig reckons will gain up to 10% at high rpm. We'll say 8% ( minus 2% for sales propaganda) which should have the motor up to 136kw, with a total increase of 16kw... all in theory of course ;)

[choom78]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Apr 9 2008, 05:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=515572)</div>
lo_rolla: 20v bottom + 20v top means you just use all the original rwd gear on the 20v block. So basicly the original block then head cooling.

chhom: thats interesting but your not meant to use a thermostat with an EWP, it is meant to create the restrcition and the control that the thermostat does. Admitedly I don't trust it though.[/b]

Lets say we take the thermostat out. Run the car on the highway with low loads. Potentially you could run at lower operating tempature range without the thermostat providing the restriction. Looking at the worst case scenario, during winter nights. This is coupled with larger more efficient radiators, thermo fans etc means you might be running much lower, doubt low as ambient but lower than 70-80 and out of your control... Yes you could drop a gear and rev it higher to load it more, but this is one scenario where themostat is needed imo.

I would rather get rid of it as well, but how would this situation be tackled...

[rthy]

if it was only the pump you where running you would be right. However the pump is meant to act as thermostat. Although i mentioned it earlier I wasnt specific, the pump can come to almost a complete stop if you use the optional controller. At the lowest setting it virually pulses its way around in a rotation.

[choom78]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Apr 10 2008, 05:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=516060)</div>
if it was only the pump you where running you would be right. However the pump is meant to act as thermostat. Although i mentioned it earlier I wasnt specific, the pump can come to almost a complete stop if you use the optional controller. At the lowest setting it virually pulses its way around in a rotation.[/b]

* ewp replaces water pump
* controller replaces flow rate
* thermostat regulates tempature from cold to hot (bypass system) and hot to cold (thermostat) is partially replaced.

If you remove the thermostat, you would lose the cold to hot function that the thermostat provides (ewp nor controller can route warming water back into the engine). For example, running on a highway with low loads on the engine on a cold day may drop your tempatures to 50c (example). You could be cruising on a hwy for a few hours - wouldn't this cause alot more wear, having the engine not running hot enough?

It would surely be simple to run without a thermostat but how do we ensure the engine heats up adequately and consistently to operating temps? (This is one role the thermostat is designed for)

[rthy]

it is meant to ensure this by almost completely stopping the pump, therefore the water stays in the engine and therefore warms up quick

[Vezza]

Yep as Sam said. The water pump pretty much stops, and no water circulates around the engine, which is the same as the thermostat closing. An ewp with hand controller can maintain engine temps much better than a thermostat and belt driven water pump. Although reliability may be another issue with ewps.

[rthy]

that and the fact that it doesnt circulate the water around the engine during warming up.

I am so wary of that product

[Vezza]

Apparently the 1st gen davies craig pumps were shithouse, would cark very easily. But 2nd gen ones are much better, doubt it would still have the lifespan of a belt driven one though.

[choom78]

How about this as an alternative?

Push water into the Intake hole in the front. Use a bypass plate to connect the IN-EX head chambers up. Then make a plate/adapter to connect the block outlet to the top radiator hose.

[Vezza]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (choom78 @ Apr 17 2008, 06:50 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=519494)</div>
How about this as an alternative?

Push water into the Intake hole in the front. Use a bypass plate to connect the IN-EX head chambers up. Then make a plate/adapter to connect the block outlet to the top radiator hose.[/b]

Well thats pretty much what is generally done. But if you simply have the water running to the front head outlet, and exiting the water pump block inlet, you really only need 2 short pieces of pipe, and you can blank off the back of the head and the original outlet. Which means you have shorter piping and cool water to the head first, which is a win win situation really.

[Ru-iki]

My Vidigauge is a very accurate item, it varies significantly compared to the other gauges Ive used. In general the water once it has passed through most of the motor and reaches the sender on the modified back water fitting, and is about 5-7 degrees under thermostat temp. So with an 82 degree thermostat, its sitting 75-78 when the thermostat opens, at the front of the head. It seems to pick up about 5 degrees while passing back through the head and out to the radiator. The water exiting the radiator is around 60-65 degrees.

[rthy]

only 5 degrees? sounds like shit all to me

[DRFT - 86]

Just having a decent read through this thread and thinking about my own set-up..... Im in the process of doing a 20v conversion and have got myself a EWP.... I am too thinking of how the issue of not having a thermo stat will affect the engine in terms of running too cold in some circumstances, couple this with a twincore 52mm alloy rad and 12" thermo fan and I can see the coolent temps not raising too drasticly...
I am not planning on using the EWP temp controller (its pricey for what it is) but if I have to then maybe I will use one... is there anyway a normal thermostat can be used with the EWP without running it dry?
Was also thinking of using the jaycar temp controller..... although wouldnt one of these mean the EWP would be running dry also untill it switched on at the desired temp?

any further info on all this would be greatly appreciated........

Niz..

[DRFT - 86]

Just reading another thread and realised my own mistake.... if the EWP isnt on then its not going to be 'running' dry now is it.. hmm...

[Vezza]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (DRFT - 86 @ Sep 15 2008, 12:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=588305)</div>
Just reading another thread and realised my own mistake.... if the EWP isnt on then its not going to be 'running' dry now is it.. hmm...[/b]


Yep, I've gone with the Jaycar controller. Haven't fitted it in the car yet, but tested the controller and its pretty good, should do the trick fine.