Converting a 3sge to RWD

[biggo]

So i thought id write this to soothe my saturday arvo boredom. All information involes a gen 1 3sge. Im not sure about any other sort so you will be on your own if you aquire one. So lets get started:

All pics are 2sc on the left and gen 1 3sge on the right.

http://img12.imageshack.us/img12/3226/nick1668.jpg (http://img12.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1668.jpg)

2 pennys if you can work out whats wrong here. Im going with a 2s starter, Y bellhousing users will probably use the 3s one

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/1641/nick1669.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1669.jpg)

Gearbox stays, 3s ones have a different bolt spacing on the bellhousing. So again im going 2s

http://img24.imageshack.us/img24/959/nick1670.jpg (http://img24.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1670.jpg)

Rear water oulets, not sure what im going to do here?

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5738/nick1672.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1672.jpg)

Companion flanges, pretty much the same, mine are 2 peice cos i think they were both auto. Not sure

http://img13.imageshack.us/img13/5343/nick1673.jpg (http://img13.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1673.jpg)

2s Sump. You will need the pick up aswell. I also got the dipstick just to be 100% sure.

Y series bellhousings can be used to convert an S to W box, from what i know one bolt hole needs removing and replacing. Also puts the starter on the intake side.

2S have a 6 bolt flywheel, 3S have 8, yair pretty much 4ac to 4age all over again :P

The acutall power steering pump is the same, mounts and lines are different for both motors

You will need a dual row spigot bearing to support the input of the gearbox. Someone will tell you why cos i have no idea.

Alternator mounts are different again, so bin them. 3s normally have them high up over the exhaust in FWD. Apparently MR2 SW20 have them low on the intake side, so thats probably tour best bet.

Thats all i can think of for now. Will update as i find shit out.

[egg_83]

what are your plans for the dizzy? and what ecu do you plan on running?

Im about to do the same thing to a mates 71, I found a cheap sa63 for him so lucky on that side of things. But still tossing up what to do about the dizzy

[biggo]

Gen 2 dizzy, shorter profile and has the correct pickup for an aftermarket ecu. Ill probably go Microtech if i have to buy a new one or Motec if i buy a used one.

[biggo]

Gen1 dizzy vs gen 2 dizzy

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1486/nick1674.jpg (http://img11.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1674.jpg)

[egg_83]

sweet ill tell my mate to look for one

[biggo]

So i guess i was wrong. 2s and 3s power steer pumps have completely differnent offsets on both the mounts and the pulley.

So i had a gander, as you do and started doing this to the 2s mount.

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/7029/nick1677.jpg (http://img27.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1677.jpg)

I still need to grind ~3mm of the alternator to fit it perfectly. Its far better there than up ontop of the exhaust mani. But then...

http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/7986/nick1679.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nick1679.jpg)

One small problem to over come. Pretty sure it will solve itself if i take the pwr steer pressure switch out and remover the front slider (it has one at the back too.)

[slydar]

you need the long/deep double row bearing because the input shaft of the w5x is too short to engage a normal spigot bearing when placed in the crank. this is the case with all 3s engines to my knowledge. and with either sa63 or yr2x etc bells.

you can alternatively have the bell housing milled down (approx' 5mm on each side).

a gen 5 beams 3s (factory rwd) has the spigot bearing in the flywheel. using a factory or after market clutch/flywheel combo is an option for all other (not gen 1 na) versions of 3s. gen1 na has a different crank bolt pcd (though all 3sges are 8 bolt, the gen one is on a smaller bolt circle)

[Konakid]

BEAMS + SA63 Bell + W55

Happy time?

[biggo]

i think that would be "i have no money left" time.

I also grabbed the water outlet off the 2s head, the other one that is. its pretty much the same as the 3s one but with out the 90*bend

[slydar]

BEAMS + SA63 Bell + W55

Happy time?

? it would bolt up and work definitely. with the stock clutch and flywheel etc.

[dehney]

hey this there any more info on this ? or has it just stop

[biggo]

Im working on it

block it getting machined.

Found this link, quite a good read.

http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&th=58032&start=0&rid=9&S=cb0e8b042f9a310b1fa8ea82b409d06f

[dr1ft-pig]

BEAMS + SA63 Bell + W55

Happy time?


u must run starter on driver side with a gen 5 as there is a oil drain return line thats way hard to move, i have a 2s bellhousing (not sure if thats sa63???)

but u will have to cut a starter buldge from something with the starter on the driver side (i used my blown 6 speed for doner buldge) and use the beams starter

[Konakid]

so i couldn't just run a Y bell?

[Sam-Q]

interesting thread, can you post a pic of the back of the head where the water outlets where taken off? I might be able to machine something very slim for you

[Sam-Q]

never mind I found this:

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/8977/wateroutletcomplete0pv.jpg

I suggest the water oulet off a V6 Magna, the are a very low profile design.

Is this thing going to have boost?

[s14seriesII]

so i couldn't just run a Y bell?

i think only 1c/2c, 2s/3s beams fit for rwd applications

[Anthony]

I would use the Y bell. You have to have one of the block holes moved about 10mm (or do it yourself if you have AC tig) but it puts the starter and the clutch slave on the drivers side.

[Sprinter86]

i have 2 *S to W** series bellhousing if anyone is interested btw....

[Konakid]

are they Y or SA?

[Sprinter86]

theyre 'S' bellhousings, not the 'Y' ones mate.

[biggo]

never mind I found this:

http://img193.exs.cx/img193/8977/wateroutletcomplete0pv.jpg

I suggest the water oulet off a V6 Magna, the are a very low profile design.

Is this thing going to have boost?

Nah sam, no boost, just a nice NA setup.

V6 magna hey? Ill have a look at one next time.

[Sam-Q]

well if its non turbo then you can join that left hand smaller outlet to the main one. How is how I would personally do it: Make up a 10mm aluminium plate that bolts to the head and has a slot between the two ports and then also has some blind threaded holes for the Magna water outlet. I think it would fit really well. Pity your in QLD

[biggo]

Gen1 has one out let, they never came turbo so then never had the small hole which is the water feed for the turbo it think.

[Sam-Q]

even simpler then, just one adapter plate that bolts to the head and the magna outlet.

[AE71briskev]

hmmm this is very interesting too i might have to have a look at this too

[biggo]

Its still got me stumped but ill probably jsut end up making one out of mild steel.

Reguarding the 2s sump, You will NEED to wled up the 2 center bolt holes at the back of the sump. Theres nothing for it to mount onto there and glue wont last long.

[AE71briskev]

yeah was thinking that today too haha yeah thats what i think im going to be doing too but i want to run a hard water line to the front of the car too less rubber hose back there the better

[AE71briskev]

what is the part number for the double row spigot bearing can anyone help me

[Konakid]

Its on toymods somewhere dude, in some thread i remember seeing a while ago, search for 3sge.

[af300e]

Gen1 has one out let, they never came turbo so then never had the small hole which is the water feed for the turbo it think.

Pretty sure the first celica GT4 (st165) was a turbo gen 1.

The small and large outlet on the back of the gen 3 heads are incorporated into one outlet. The turbo line then comes off the that coolant "manifold".
I have one in the shed if anyone wants a pic.

The double row spigot is easy to find, just measure (from memory it's 36mm OD and 12mm ID) then go to your trusty bearing supplies and spend $45 bucks buying a 16mm wide double row ball race.
Standard one is 9mm wide and under $10. This is what I have used. I had to machine the bell (-8mm front, -2mm rear) and reset the fulcrum ball for the clutch fork. I also had to extend the bearing slide.

These last 2 things were done to push the clutch plate further onto the gearbox input shaft and may not have to
be done on the gen 1 as the flywheel is more of a rwd profile.

Slydar can confirm this though. He has first hand experience with the gen1.

[tin can]

hi all

im doing this conversion at the moment just like to whats the best starter motor to use.

ive tried a sv11 fits but fouls on the coloum.(pic below)

im using a 3y bellhousing.

[Sam-Q]

doesnt the bellhousing off the 2S engine hold the starter on the other side?

[af300e]

doesnt the bellhousing off the 2S engine hold the starter on the other side?

Yeah.

[tin can]

yeah its does but im using a 3y bellhousing because im going turbo. dont want the starter to get hot.

[af300e]

yeah its does but im using a 3y bellhousing because im going turbo. dont want the starter to get hot.

I've set up my gen3 turbo with 2s bell housing. I built a custom high mount turbo manifold so the starter is safe. Manifold and starter are wrapped. The dump pipe is far enough away from the clutch slave and the starter that it will cause no issues.

There is more issue with the return lines on the water pump fouling on the starter than there is with exhaust heat.

I know a workshop in Melbourne that has built a few (over 10) rwd 3s motors using 2s bells and the owner tells me that there has never been an issue with starters cooking.

[tin can]

understand wont have problems also i wanted to have my exhaust runners abit longer than normal and to do that needed stater on the otherside.

i like the clutch master being on the inlet side also.

have you got a pick of your exhaust manifold we could have a look at.

[af300e]

I'll get one happening for you. Give me a couple of days.

[tin can]

ill show you mine if you show me urs haha.

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

hi all

im doing this conversion at the moment just like to whats the best starter motor to use.

ive tried a sv11 fits but fouls on the coloum.(pic below)

im using a 3y bellhousing.

Am I correct in assuming that the KE70 and AE86 engine bay/cross member/steering rack etc are all exactly the same?

I used the 3Y bellhousing in my car, yes it is fairly close to the steering rack but it fits....

May I suggest looking at the mounting of the engine, as I can tell you it definately fits without any issues at all.

Also, as stated, either the 3Y or 2S bellhousing can be used, the 3Y being the better of the two as the starter and clutch throw out are both out of the way on the inlet side of the engine, putting them on the other side is nothing but a pain in the arse with exhaust routing and heat issues, no matter if its NA or turbo....

Water outlet at the back of the head is probably one of the easier fixes in the RWD conversion, simply have a plate laser cut using the gasket as a template and fab up some steel piping to run around the back of the head and back along under the inlet plenum to the front of the engine. Dizzy needs to have the cap removed (unless you want to butcher the firewall) and use the sensor as a CAS to trigger a direct fire igintion system (aftermarket ecu required). Some 3s blocks (cant remember exactly which ones) already have all necessary holes tapped into them to allow fitment of the 2s engine mounts. Mine (Gen2 gTe) didnt, I had to fab up a mount to pick up the nearest 4 holes. If you're lucky enough to have the 2s mounts bolt up to the 3s block, then its simply a matter of cutting the mounts off the cross member and rewelding them on to suit the 3s mounting. You can here adjust exactly how/where you want the 3s to sit in relation to the crossmember. Simply trim the mounts to get the engine sitting lower/closer to the cross member prior to rewelding them in place.

It isnt really all that much of a difficult conversion. I honestly dont see why it isnt done more often. In my eyes, the only advantages an SR/CA conversion has over a 3s are the dizzy and water outlet issues dont exist.

[af300e]

In my eyes, the only advantages an SR/CA conversion has over a 3s are the dizzy and water outlet issues dont exist.

You're forgetting the clutch and intake manifold issues too.

I think the reason that more people don't do the 3s conversions is access to fabrication tools/space/skills.

I hear you though. If you have the ability to fabricate the required bits, the
3s conversion is not all that difficult.

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

You're forgetting the clutch and intake manifold issues too.


Yeah sorry, intake manifold issues.... Seeing as alot of RWD converted 4ages are running around with cut and shut manifolds, I dont think it'd be too hard to do the same for a 3s. I didnt bother, I decided it would be easier to start from scratch.

Clutch issues? I use a GT4 celica clutch, straight off the shelf, suits the W5* series box perfectly, no changing of anything. The Gen1 engine I have in my shed also uses this same spline for input to gearbox, so I imagine its the same through all of the 3s gens?

Speaking of which, I have a heap of NA Gen 1 3sge parts (including a complete long motor in pieces needs new main bearings) sitting in my shed, a brand new PBR Clutch kit complete in box also if anyone is interested?! ;) (Shameless plug lol)

[af300e]

I made my own intake too, but for those who don't have access to aluminium welding gear the costs quickly get nasty.
Cut and shut is a no go because the gen 2 and 3 turbo manifolds are the rubbish inlet from the side design. The NA ones are different but the gen1 and 2 are the TVIS things which is a bit crap. In addition, the gen 1 manifold runners sweep back to the rear of the motor in RWD config and get super close if not against the firewall. The gen 3 one might be better, hard to find one though, only to discover it may/may not work.

On mine (gen 3) the clutch plate only picked up about 20mm of a possible approx 30mm of input shaft when using the transverse (stock) flywheel. This meant i had to machine the bell housing and extend the bearing slide. That in turn meant extending the throwout fork ball to position the fork closer to the engine.

The ring gear was too big for the starter to sit in the 2s bellhousing position so i made an adapter plate out of 6mm steel. That pushed the starter 6mm out of the ring gear when it engages so, I dismantled the starter, threw the front housing in the lathe and took off that 6mm. Reassembled the starter, bolted it all up and it turns the motor sweet as a nut!

(All the above measurements are from memory so don't go using them before double checking.)

I can understand why more people don't do 3s conversions. The fab is killer.

[tin can]

regards to the inlet manifold i doind a cut and shut with a greddy s13 manifold, the part that's going to bolt to the head got machined up to suit the 3sgte (gen2).

here have a look lets us now what you think.

hope im not straying away from the topic.

[Anthony]

Obviously the starter works on the exh side. look at the hundreds of 4AGTE's. The question is: why run the exh past the starter AND the clutch line and slave cyl if you dont have to?

The starter's a maybe, the clutch is a no brainer.

[driftke70]

af300e, sounds like some serious dicking around going on,

to be honest, many things with the way i have done mine would normally be frowned at for various reasons, but if you came and saw my engine in the bay you would understand.

Firstly, the reason i chose the gen3 3sgte was that it spools up uber early, makes a fair bit of torque early, and has basically no lag. For this reason, i didnt want to touch the inlet or the intercooler. As the stock 255hp is more than enough to begin with, and a simple boost increase and adaptronic will see me pushing uncontrollable power. I thought about turning my turbo around, so the inlet was on the radiator side and the exhaust on the firewall side, but by not doing so, i was able to move my engine much further back, and the dump pipe actually worked out really well. I would have had alot more trouble trying to get the dump pipe down and clear without doing serious stuff to the firewall. Also, would have meant new manifold, and new turbo. which may as well meant new inlet, and new intercooler.

I used a 3/4y bell, with a 4afe starter, I modified the bellhousing to take the starter, and it works well, was only a small mod too.

As for height with the intercooler on the top, my engine is low enough that its only going to take a small bulge in the bonnet to clear the intercooler, which isnt a problem at all really, and thats not taking into account the bonnet will probably be raised a little at the back so only a 10mm bulge.

no intercooler means i have plenty of room up the front , no showy stuff for cops, less weight further forward, and the extra bonus of uber reliability of running basically a stock engine.

clutch and flywheel is altezza, w box, spigot is in the flywheel, and all the clutch for and everything fit up perfectly.

there is alot of fucking around with a 3s, not alot more than other engines, but significant i think. If i had my time again I would probably start with a beams and do a nice high mount turbo setup running low boost.

[AE71briskev]

medwin how much do u want for that pbr clutch

[af300e]

clutch and flywheel is altezza, w box, spigot is in the flywheel, and all the clutch for and everything fit up perfectly.


That's a good idea right there that is.

My intercooler is the stock jobbie too, just fitted as a front mount. It's black and invisible.
The turbo is stock too.
After going for a spin in a stock gen3 mr2, i didn't feel the need to mod it especially since i'm dropping at least 300kg on the mr2.
Plus, i have to keep the motor stock to avoid having it EPA tested at $1500 a throw.

Tincan, manifold looks good. Mine sits higher than that because i used the stock runners and to clear the water line that goes to the back of the head.
In retrospect i think mine is going to be a little too big, with runners a bit too short but, i always intended it to be experimantal, so we'll see how it goes.

[driftke70]

didnt know mr2 came with gen 3

[af300e]

Gen 3 NA mr2's were australian delivered, gen 3 3sgte MR2 was available in Japan.
The one I refer to was a gen 2 gte import that had a gen 3 from a half cut put in.

The Gen 3 for my build came out of an MR2 halfcut.

[driftke70]

i always assumed they were quite rare, mine was from a gt4 st205

[Justin Holden]

i always assumed they were quite rare, mine was from a gt4 st205

Gen 3 is not rare, well maybe in Austrilia but defnatly not in NZ

GEN3 onwards can be stood up, gen 1/2 not worth standing up, unless you like muching bearing constantly

I have been there done that

Get a gen 3 or forward motor and you fine

Gen1 and 2 is wasted of time

I have pics of my gen 2 conversion if anyone wants to see

[driftke70]

my gen 3 is stood up with a beams sump

[Justin Holden]

my gen 3 is stood up with a beams sump

Sump does not matter, but is a factor

Gen 1 and Gen 2 motors head like to act like swimming pool for oil when the are stood upright, so they fill up and the oil stays in the head and never return to the sump, then oh no whats going to lubricate my bearing, oh no its all in the head, oh no i have run bearings

Gen 3 apparntly have been returns form the head so they don't suffer form the same issue

I know for a fact that gen4 onwards can defantly be stood up no issues

I am merely passing on information I have gianed form doing this conversion before

If i was to do it again, I use a late model single cam beams head, with a gen 4 caldina bottom end

[driftke70]

single cam beams?

[biggo]

3sfe beams hahaha but it wouldnt be cos theres no beams cam cover.

[AE71briskev]

hey biggo do u have ne pics of the different engine mount that u r using to fix the problem with the oil drain problem

[fantapants]

think he means the "redtop" single vvti cam???

maybe?? :)

wish i could get on with mine :)

[biggo]

nah, engine mount on the exhaust side is like 10mm higher.

Ive binned the baffle in the exhaust side of the cam cover plus its a brand new head so the drains should be smick. Considering chopping the xmemeber tho, might have to put the engine in and see what sort of room i have to play with.

[biggo]

Pat - how did you go with the blacktop quad mountings? New manifold?

[AE71briskev]

nah, engine mount on the exhaust side is like 10mm higher.

Ive binned the baffle in the exhaust side of the cam cover plus its a brand new head so the drains should be smick. Considering chopping the xmemeber tho, might have to put the engine in and see what sort of room i have to play with.


ah sweet i will look at doing the same and removing the baffel. have u done ur itb manifold yet?

[driftke70]

had a look at it the other day, will shape something up soonish, depending on what biggo can get his hands on, plenty of stuff on yahoo henry pointed out ot me

[biggo]

orly?

Ive got Pulgers making me an intake mani flange and quad flanges. Going steel tho, i dont like alloy. Give me a week end or 2 and ill have something sorted. Might need to pay you a visit tho beal, theres some trickery to be done.

[fantapants]

yeah biggo.... glen ra45 has cast alloy mounting plates for blacktops. Has 3 left i believe but wont be doing any more.

With the beams they are a split manifold mount, so wouldnt be too hard to make something nice if your handy. Otherwise on the older stuff it should be relatively easy im guessing.

The only problem he mentioned to me was the black top throttles are meant for the 4age spacing, which is right, except between the banks of cylinders. He said i would have to have a new throttle cable mount and pulley system, but it seems to fit fine with a bit of fiddling... or i might be missing something important :) The throttle rod is on a light angle, not straight up and down like on the 4a.and it sits right in line with the old fuel reg. But the rail seems to be the same as the return rails, just with plugs, so i have moved the plugs and running the rail as a traditional in and out setup, not the returnless system.

[biggo]

Have you got a pic? Im trying to visualise it but thoughts of boobs keep popping up

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

Sump does not matter, but is a factor
Gen 1 and Gen 2 motors head like to act like swimming pool for oil when the are stood upright, so they fill up and the oil stays in the head and never return to the sump, then oh no whats going to lubricate my bearing, oh no its all in the head, oh no i have run bearings
Gen 3 apparntly have been returns form the head so they don't suffer form the same issue
I know for a fact that gen4 onwards can defantly be stood up no issues
I am merely passing on information I have gianed form doing this conversion before
If i was to do it again, I use a late model single cam beams head, with a gen 4 caldina bottom end
Clearly, this guy doesnt know what he's on about....

The Gen 1 & 2 motors like being stood up alot more than the Gen 3. Ask anyone who has actually spent a fair amount of time on the RWD 3s conversions. The Gen 3 needs an external oil drain from the head to return to sump, my Gen 2 has never had oil sitting in the head, never even caught any in the catch can!

[Justin Holden]

Clearly, this guy doesnt know what he's on about....

The Gen 1 & 2 motors like being stood up alot more than the Gen 3. Ask anyone who has actually spent a fair amount of time on the RWD 3s conversions. The Gen 3 needs an external oil drain from the head to return to sump, my Gen 2 has never had oil sitting in the head, never even caught any in the catch can!


Oh really so please explain why i went through 3 motors, everytime the bearing would run and my catch can would fill up, pull out dip stick wow no oil there, take off tappet covers wow's there a swimming pool around my cams :O

The once I applied an external drain form the head the issue went away

The again the motors i was using were nice $300 long blocks purchased from the wreckers not being rebuilt jsut installed and thrashed, I suppose if you went to the effort to rebuild and made sure all the oil drains and gallery were clean before start the issue might not occur, but I wasn't willing to spend $$$$$ on building a tough motor when 3sgte's are dime a dozen at the wreckers, this is in New Zealand not over here where parts are stupid prices you guys get the pole big time with your lack of imports.

Fraser cars in Auckland also advised me to run an external oil drian as they have being using gen 2 motor in there clubmans for years

But again I suppsoe seeing I have done it I know nothing

Again I am jsut letting people know my personal expernce with 3sgte and rwd

If i was to do again, I would go with the latest model motor i could get my hands on, for value for money single cam n/a beams from a MR2 or Caldina would be the go at around $400 dollars from a NZ wreckers and would run low boost

But I'll leave this post to you as you know so much more than me, I am sorry for ever commenting or sharing my personal expernces

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

May I suggest, that perhaps it was more than an issue of the engine being stood up that lead to your oil blockage? It would seem to me that if the lack of drainage was such an issue as to fill a catch can and the head and have it sitting in there after the motor had stopped running (oil pump no longer pumping, allowing oil to drain back to sump) then you had some far more serious issues going on, not possibly all caused by simply standing the motor up. As I said, I myself have never even caught any blow-by in the catch can, never had any oil build up in the head, and others using the same generation 3sgte's are the same, its those who go to the gen 3's that need the external drain.

I too have done it, and in the process of spoke to many many people who have also done it, and I wouldnt be posting if I didnt know what I was talking about. Im just saying that its the gen 3 that doesnt like being stood up as much as the previous models, and that your issues would have to have been caused by a little more than a lack of oil draining back to sump from the head.

This thread is for discussion, your personal experiences are worth more than rumours people may have heard.... I was just saying that I think u need to look further than just blaming the standing of the motor up....

[Justin Holden]

May I suggest, that perhaps it was more than an issue of the engine being stood up that lead to your oil blockage? It would seem to me that if the lack of drainage was such an issue as to fill a catch can and the head and have it sitting in there after the motor had stopped running (oil pump no longer pumping, allowing oil to drain back to sump) then you had some far more serious issues going on, not possibly all caused by simply standing the motor up. As I said, I myself have never even caught any blow-by in the catch can, never had any oil build up in the head, and others using the same generation 3sgte's are the same, its those who go to the gen 3's that need the external drain.

I too have done it, and in the process of spoke to many many people who have also done it, and I wouldnt be posting if I didnt know what I was talking about. Im just saying that its the gen 3 that doesnt like being stood up as much as the previous models, and that your issues would have to have been caused by a little more than a lack of oil draining back to sump from the head.

This thread is for discussion, your personal experiences are worth more than rumours people may have heard.... I was just saying that I think u need to look further than just blaming the standing of the motor up....

I would say the state of the motors I was using would have been the major cause of the problems, but the 4th motor which was the final one I used before selling the car had an external drain added at the back of the head and also had my final version sump which was enlarged majorly and also had wing's and baffeling, this motor ran fine and I never experinced any issues with it, hence the reason I advise fitting of an extra drain from the head, I also strongly recommend to any doing the conversion please don't use a 2s sump, please desgin up a custom sump with proper baffeling and trap doors to make sure oil is kept near the pick up, the 2s sump was never desgined with motorsport in mind.

Picture of my sump and oil drain:

http://img219.imageshack.us/img219/1020/image040tu5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

http://img81.imageshack.us/i/image036ld1.jpg/

Water Piping

http://img86.imageshack.us/img86/9839/image038nn4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)



I do like the fact that like myself you speak from experince of actually doing it not from what you have read or have been told :)

[Anthony]

nice idea using a thermostat cover as the new housing. as compact as it gets!

I think the drainage is simlar between the motors (gen 2 and gen 3 3sgte) just that the gen 3 head gasket restricts oil flow to the cams, I believe toyota found they needed nowhere near as much oil up there as they were sending. This isn turn lets the oil drain away effectively.

It's true the bulk of the drainage is on one side of the motor, but it is on a 4age as well.

In any case, it's worth noting that the first 3sge that toyota "stood up" scored an extra oil drain from the rear exh corner of the head.

[af300e]

On the Gen 3 (and i'll bet it's the same on the rest of the 3s motors too, as the blocks didn't change much) the head oil drains are on the intake side.
I don't understand how adding a 4th drain to the intake side would have helped as the oil is more likely to pool in the exhaust side of the head.
In fact, you can see from the outside the large drains cast into the block on the intake side. They are monsters, at least half an inch, probably closer to 15mm ID.

The beams motors have an external drain on the exhaust side, ie. the opposite side to your extra drain.
From what i can see, the oil pooling issues can be easily solved by the following (ref gen3)
1. Mounting engine with a slight (even very little) lean toward the intake side.
2. Bigger sump to allow for the oil stored in the head
3. Restricting flow to the head by tapping and inserting a restricter into the head oil journal.

I'm not sure that the gen3 gasket restricts the flow as a well respected toyota performance engine builder in Melbourne recommends fitting of the restricter in the head on gen 3 motors for high RPM use. This may be in addition to the gasket restriction though.

I too speak from experience. I'll post some pics of my build tonight.
It is possible to port and plumb the exhaust side for oil drains. I'll do this if I encounter any problems

[Justin Holden]

On the Gen 3 (and i'll bet it's the same on the rest of the 3s motors too, as the blocks didn't change much) the head oil drains are on the intake side.
I don't understand how addind another drain to the intake side would have helped as the oil is more likely to pool in the exhaust side of the head.

The beams motors have an external drain on the exhaust side, ie. the opposite side to your extra drain.

I too speak from experience. I'll post some pics of my build tonight.

Yeah Fraser Cars in auckland also recommend i fit one to the exhuast side, which I initally planned to do, but I was convinced by a friend who rebuilds head to place it there as it was the lowest point in the head we could actually tap into with out getting to close to the water jacket seemed to work awesome as well :)

Also BTW Fraser sell spacer plates that allow you to run the stock 3sgte flywheel and starter its just small plate they machine up thats spaces the starter motor out

As for the thermo hosuing it was one we had lying around from a Datsun (Ewww Nissan I was a little bit sick in my mouth when fitting it) 180b no idea on the motor but it fitted and worked mint :)

[af300e]

Also BTW Fraser sell spacer plates that allow you to run the stock 3sgte flywheel and starter its just small plate they machine up thats spaces the starter motor out

I made my own :)

I used a 2s starter though. Spacing a gen 2 or later starter out enough to pick up the ring gear would have landed me right on top of the oil cooler.

The gen 1 starter is engine side already and would probably be easier to adapt.

[Anthony]

Your engine builders recommendation can be applied to any engine in the world so it hardly disproves anything.

The extra oil drain on the intake side can be helpful. think of how thin the oil is at operating temp. its hardly going to "pool up" and refuse to drain because you put the extra drain 3 inches from where it is. the key benefit is the extra volume the drain provides. Obviously not ideal but still worthwhile.

[af300e]

The extra oil drain on the intake side can be helpful. think of how thin the oil is at operating temp. its hardly going to "pool up" and refuse to drain because you put the extra drain 3 inches from where it is. the key benefit is the extra volume the drain provides. Obviously not ideal but still worthwhile.

It has 3x15mm drains already. They will flow many times more return oil than the pump can push through a single 3mm delivery into the head.

A 4th drain on the intake side seems a total waste of time.

The pooling occurs because when the engine is set upright the oil has to reach a certain level in the EXHAUST side of the head before is spills over to the intake side. The motor sits on a large tilt toward the intake side when it's in east west config through which all the oil supplied to the head drains. Obviously 3 large oil drains on the intake side are enough. Another one is overkill.

As you mentioned, beams engine, the extra drain is in the exhaust side.

The head gasket part numbers offered for all generations of 3sgte are the same suggesting there is no extra restriction in the gen 3. Would have to check with a genuine toyota EPC to be sure.

[Celica RA45]

i ran a gen 2 motor for 4 years before i went up to the beams motors .and the easy fix is take head off put a oil restricter in the block with a 2mm oil hole ,normaly 6mm dia also i put a dash 10 under the disy cap for drain back just above the water line and also on the exhaust side between no 2 and no 3cylinder where the oil goes under the valve train
motor never blew up and it made 125kws at back wheels with quads port job and cams

[slydar]

you guys are funny.

[takai]

i ran a gen 2 motor for 4 years before i went up to the beams motors .and the easy fix is take head off put a oil restricter in the block with a 2mm oil hole ,normaly 6mm dia also i put a dash 10 under the disy cap for drain back just above the water line and also on the exhaust side between no 2 and no 3cylinder where the oil goes under the valve train
motor never blew up and it made 125kws at back wheels with quads port job and cams

Why do i have a sense of dejavu. Think this argument was had on the old AE86 forums, and on Toymods, and on the old Toymods forums, and on Twincam.org and PerformanceForums...

Ohwell, the two that we built had a -10 fitting between the 2nd and 3rd cylinders on the exhaust side of the head. Drained straight to the sump. (one was MiC's car if anyone is old enough to remember it)
After nuking one engine we wernt taking chances.

[Frak]

Justin Holden, by single cam BEAMS do you mean RED TOP BEAMS?? IF so, how do they go? even tho not dual vvt as SXE engine, I imagine it would still be nice engine with 197bhp?

[driftke70]

drain shmain, every guy ive heard about thats had problems ran a 2s sump with no work, didnt put enough oil in accounting the fact that the dip stick is going to be completely wrong after the engine is stood up, and the fact that 70% of people dont have a clue what they are doing.

too many opinions not enough fact in here.

[biggo]

This belongs to s14series11 on here. And to tell you guys the true i dont see a problem.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/0/1/4/9038.jpg

note the engine is upright.

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

This is what doesnt make sense to me.... In putting an extra drain in the exhaust side, you're allowing the oil to drain back to sump instead of 'pooling' enough to feed the intake side of the head, therefore creating a possibility of starving the intake side of oil. Doesnt make sense to me....

I'd say, that as bealy suggested, many of these failures are due to other issues, lack of overall oil capacity and poor supply being the most likely suspects.

Speaking from my own first hand experience, I can again say i havent had an issue with oil. I have a modified sump, extended pickup, external filter and cooler setup, that holds a bit over 7L of oil. My engine is mounted past straight up and down, it leans to the exhaust side slightly! (refer pic) Again, i've never had any oil pooling in the head, never even caught any in the catch can at all! A properly set up rwd 3s can be as reliable as it ever was in any factory application, its been proved time and time again.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/3/18075.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/3/18076.jpg

[af300e]

This is what doesnt make sense to me.... In putting an extra drain in the exhaust side, you're allowing the oil to drain back to sump instead of 'pooling' enough to feed the intake side of the head, therefore creating a possibility of starving the intake side of oil. Doesnt make sense to me....

The pooling is a by product of the pressure fed lubrication, not the method by which valve train lubrication occurs. There is a bit of splash lubrication here and there, but an oil pool is not required/desired.

If having a drain on the exhaust side was going to be an issue, why would toyota design one into the beams head?

As long as there is sufficient oil in the sump there is no reason why holding oil in the head would cause bearings to spin. I imagine this is why those who run a decent sized sump have no issues.

[Celica RA45]

well start throwing 1.4 Gs into the corner and watch your motors surge
what i have done does works and that was with a 2s sump as well
i have even set up a 3sge with a 2s sump on slicks that does philip island in 1.42 westfield clubman

[af300e]

well start throwing 1.4 Gs into the corner and watch your motors surge
what i have done does works and that was with a 2s sump as well
i have even set up a 3sge with a 2s sump on slicks that does philip island in 1.42 westfield clubman

Largely irrelevent for our applications.
But, point taken on the abilities of wet sump designs.

[takai]

Largely irrelevent for our applications.
But, point taken on the abilities of wet sump designs.

Not really, the car which CelicaRA45 is referring to is his RA45 race car. Im sure that many slicked or even semislicked AE86s would pull 1.4gs through a corner.

[af300e]

Supertourers seem to peak at around 1.5g (on new tyres, ref link below) in race conditions. They seem to generally pull hgher G forces than the V8's.

http://autosports.com.au/TechArticles/3.aspx

1.4g for most ae86's regardless of tyres seems uber high and unattainable.

Plus, the surge is likely more to do with oil pickup starvation than the head collecting oil

[fantapants]

possibly..... well actually a total thread hijack....

on that my initial thought was that being a lighter car it could pull higher g's than a super taxi as there is less weight acting on the loaded tyre. so for a given G there is less force applied to the face of the tyre on the bituman. However, this could be countered by the heavier weight acting as a pressdown grip enhancer, and the light weight may work against the tyre?

I have been lucky enough to do some track days in the pretend v8 supa taxis with slicks... used porsche cup tyres. The loaded corner traction is unreal. was a real eye opener :)

[af300e]

I don't mean the V8's.
Super tourers are a different class. Maximum 2 litre NA only, min weight 975kg. Pretty good comparison for an ae86 I thought.

I've no doubt an ae86 could be setup to pull some serious forces, but to say that most would make 1.4g with just set of good tyres on? I doubt it. And even then, a litre of oil stuck in the head for a few seconds can be overcome by decent sump design or dry sump.

Glenn's car is pretty serious, there are not many comparable cars on DC. Most are far milder in terms of cornering performance.

[Celica RA45]

im only going by my data from my duel axis sensor on my i2 software ,even at sandown its up to 1.2 gs but its mainly at the island where i hit 1.4 gs

[af300e]

Which corner was that?

Sounds awesome btw.

[s14seriesII]

yew 3s power :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AeqmwNxS8sk&feature=related

[Celica RA45]

turn 1 at the island and going over lukey heights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mp5A_2p500k
heres 1 with me chasing and being chased by 2 commodores

[driftke70]

seems like you could be on the gas alot earlier in a few places, but its hard to say without being in the car and not feeling the apexes

[Anthony]

I think the fisheye just makes it seem that way.

[Celica RA45]

those lap times in that were 1.51.6 .1.51,8 and 1.51 dead lap record for under 2 litre club car is 1.50 ,5 and has been there since 99

[takai]

Ive hit 1.1g coming through turn2 at Mallala. Although the software that was logging that was a bit dubious, and im not sure whether thats a Delta of 1.1g or absolute.

[Sam-Q]

yeah what do you mean single cam beams? isnt that a contradiction?

[dr1ft-pig]

single vvti beams... only has vvti on intake side like a 20v, still twin cam

[Sam-Q]

oh yeah my misunderstanding, thats the earlier version

[biggo]

Less discussing and more 3sge converting. I did this today cos i only have one arm and cant weld for another few weeks.

started with a Hilux Y motor water outlet

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/7951/nick1726.jpg

Modified it

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/6/1/18226.jpg

Finished for now

http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/3391/nick1729.jpg

Im going to be running a slimjim oil pressure sender so dont stess. ACIS or whatever that hole in the middle of the cam covers needs to be blocked off in my case, im using quads so whatever it does i dont want.

I need to fit a water bypass fitting in the water outlet but ill do that another time.

[Celica RA45]

ok some front pics on my 3sge this was my gen 2 with water outlet at the front

[Celica RA45]

and the oil drain backs as my motor was set up like the std 1 with a 20mm out of level like a 18rg motor

[takai]

and the oil drain backs as my motor was set up like the std 1 with a 20mm out of level like a 18rg motor

That is exactly how MiCs was done

[Celica RA45]

mics was copied from my motor

[biggo]

Motor as it is, had to extend the clutch slave pushrod 15/20mm for some reason.

http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6079/nick1734.jpg

2sc starter, stock headers, sa63 bellhousing, its a bit tight

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/6/1/18517.jpg

[Sam-Q]

try the starter of the ae92 twinky, it has the same mounts but has the motor directly above instead

[driftke70]

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6817/dscf2732l.jpg
http://img7.imageshack.us/img7/8986/dscf2740x.jpg

[slydar]

try the starter of the ae92 twinky, it has the same mounts but has the motor directly above instead

a 4age starter will definitely not fit/work with that bell/ring gear.

p.s lol medwins idea of how lubrication works.

[tin can]

hi all


can i fit a beams (sxe10) oil pump and sump to a gen2?

[af300e]

hi all


can i fit a beams (sxe10) oil pump and sump to a gen2?

Yes, will relocate the oil filter in the bargain.

You can fit the sump and pump together, but no one or the other alone. The beams sump has the pressure relief in it and the pump will just pump straight back into the sump if you don't use the beams sump.

I went the other way, converted my gen3 gte (same setup as beams) to
5sfe pump and 2s (modified) sump.

[Anthony]

just make sure its an SXE10 or ST215 pump so it has the crank trigger divet to match the sump. normal gen 3 pump wont line up.

[Celica RA45]

ok oil returns on the gen 2 motor side and back

[ae85 trueno]

Hey Biggo i dont know whether your interested but im selling some Quads on a custom manifold to suit 3SGE Gen 2
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&item=250465855297
Just thought you might be interested

[tin can]

whats the depth on a beams sump.

e.g from the bottom of the block to the bottom of the sump.

just want to see the diff from a 2s to a 3s beams

cheers

[fantapants]

16 cm give or take... its cold and dark :)

[Sam-Q]

can someone tell me what this flange in the sump casting does on the half cut-off left hand side of this pic?

http://img18.imageshack.us/img18/6817/dscf2732l.jpg

[Sam-Q]

never mind the post above, I found an old post that explains this is for the spring that controls the pressure releif of the oil pump, ie: dont mess with it

[Anthony]

phew, i was having deja vu!

[Jonny Rochester]

I work on a KE25/3S-GE car and currently have it all in bits again. It was running fine.

It has a SW20 motor. SA63 belhousing and everything I think. The holes in the flywheel have been filed oval. A double row bearing was used in the crank. But there was limited movement for the clutch fork, and the owner filed out the hole in the belhousing a bit. Clutch was slipping a bit, not sure why.

Not it's apart, we are going to try a normal spigot bearing, and are having the belhousing milled 6mm off the engine/belhousing surface. Im told another way to do this is just extend the clutch pivot about 6mm, which would be easier.

Water system works but is a mess, so any more neat rear water pictures would be great.

[biggo]

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/1797/nick1743.jpg

mines shorter than the dizzy for some reason. Id reccomend putting the fitting for the bypass on an angle tho.

My clutch is weird too, had to use a longer push rod, seems to work will find out when its running i guess

[Sam-Q]

phew, i was having deja vu!

yeah my bad I wasnt paying attention the first time

[fantapants]

thread dig up :)

with the 3y bell housings what clutch slave and fork and shift bearing are you guys using?

also does anyone know a reason y a starter of a late model 22re ( hilux/4runner/surf i think ) wouldnt work? it fits the bolt holes right, does anyone know if it would fit the flywheel?

cheers guys

[driftke70]

i had my 4afe one working but im going to have to revise it i think, not very happy with it.
Ant if you have a 20v or modded 20v let me know. (starter)

[fantapants]

yeah me to :)

[steroidchickens]

me three

[Anthony]

lol. better find some more 20V starters.

[fantapants]

woop woop

[kina]

Anthony I could also be interested in a modified starter for my 3y bellhousing but need to know more details. Will these fit a SW20 Gen 3 flywheel?

[s14seriesII]

I work on a KE25/3S-GE car and currently have it all in bits again. It was running fine.

It has a SW20 motor. SA63 belhousing and everything I think. The holes in the flywheel have been filed oval. A double row bearing was used in the crank. But there was limited movement for the clutch fork, and the owner filed out the hole in the belhousing a bit. Clutch was slipping a bit, not sure why.

Not it's apart, we are going to try a normal spigot bearing, and are having the belhousing milled 6mm off the engine/belhousing surface. Im told another way to do this is just extend the clutch pivot about 6mm, which would be easier.

Water system works but is a mess, so any more neat rear water pictures would be great.

my water pipe is quite neat.. az did it to my design :)

has the release bearing carrier been extended ? you might find the release bearing was going off the end of the spigot shaft it sits on

[Anthony]

Anthony I could also be interested in a modified starter for my 3y bellhousing but need to know more details. Will these fit a SW20 Gen 3 flywheel?

only tested with 3sfe townace and sxe10 3sge flywheels. (both rwd from factory). The problem with celica cna mr2 flywheels is the starter is on the other side of the flywheel and the teeth on the ring gear have been cut accordingly. How much of a problem this is remains to be seen.

[fantapants]

have you checked these for fit with the altessa mounts ant.... mine is almost out of the car will let you know tomorow

[s14seriesII]

only tested with 3sfe townace and sxe10 3sge flywheels. (both rwd from factory). The problem with celica cna mr2 flywheels is the starter is on the other side of the flywheel and the teeth on the ring gear have been cut accordingly. How much of a problem this is remains to be seen.

i just flipped the ring gear around on the flywheel... only issue i had was the diameter of the flywheel in regards to finding a starter motor with the right depth and to suit the big diameter flywheel

[kina]

only tested with 3sfe townace and sxe10 3sge flywheels. (both rwd from factory). The problem with celica cna mr2 flywheels is the starter is on the other side of the flywheel and the teeth on the ring gear have been cut accordingly. How much of a problem this is remains to be seen.

What is the outer diameter of the townace 3sfe and sxe10 flywheels? I'll compare it with the sw20 one. I am planning on flipping over the ring gear so that the teeth are bevelled the right way for rwd like s14seriesII has done.

The depth issue doesn't worry me as I can space it out easily just need to get the starter positioned right so that it meshes correctly with the ring gear

[kina]

Just answered my own question. I assume that the townace 3sfe flywheel is the same

The Altezza (SXE10) overall diameter from the ring gear is ~294.6mm, the MR2 (SW20) flywheel is ~305mm. I received confirmation from both Toda and Jun about the difference in size.

Information source (http://www.celica-gts.com/forums/index.php?topic=15181.15)

[Adsport]

http://img107.imageshack.us/img107/1797/nick1743.jpg

mines shorter than the dizzy for some reason. Id reccomend putting the fitting for the bypass on an angle tho.

My clutch is weird too, had to use a longer push rod, seems to work will find out when its running i guess



whoa! the extension of your clutch slave is stupendous. looks like you need to lengthen the fork pivot out a bit.

[biggo]

nah its fine

theres more than enough room for the throwout to slide on. However if it were more id have to extend the throwout bearing carrier to keep it on the shaft. Thats pretty border line tho.

[ke70coupe]

i found a 99 model 3sge out of celica fwd i guess this is gen3

[Pidgey]

Unless it is a BEAMS.
Yes.

[ke70coupe]

Unless it is a BEAMS.
Yes.

its not beams