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View Full Version : Wheel Alignment For Grip



stouty
28th May 2009, 02:17 PM
Well there is a wheel alignment thread for drift so i thought i would see what people are running for Grip?

Adsie
28th May 2009, 06:38 PM
Don't think the other one was just for drift, anyway mine:
1.5mm overall toe out (wanted 1mm but they though 1.5 was close enough....)
-2.5 camber
+3.5 caster

Car has awesome turn in but is really twitchy/scary at high speeds like 4th/5th gear.

charged
28th May 2009, 06:43 PM
Im running on my KE25 , 4 deg neg camber, 4deg pos castor, 0 toe set up for circuit use with Yokie a048r tyres

fantapants
31st May 2009, 04:47 PM
was running -4 camber and no idea on the rest :( BUT when i drew a bit of the camber out for more on traction.... less roll less need for camber, car felt like a bucket of shit :(

Konakid
31st May 2009, 08:02 PM
same as a drift setup but with less toe out or +ve toe for more stability.

chris1818
4th June 2009, 09:16 AM
Don't think the other one was just for drift, anyway mine:
1.5mm overall toe out (wanted 1mm but they though 1.5 was close enough....)
-2.5 camber
+3.5 caster

Car has awesome turn in but is really twitchy/scary at high speeds like 4th/5th gear.


Reduce the toe out on the rear to 0 or less, and/or reduce negative camber on the front, should get rid of the twitchyness

ae71neo
4th June 2009, 09:17 PM
I dont think he will be adjusting the toe in the rear...

chris1818
5th June 2009, 12:19 PM
Glad someones on the money :hehe:

stouty
9th June 2009, 02:23 PM
Yeh not much adjustment on a solid diff lol

Funkdoc
10th June 2009, 08:29 PM
I find 0 toe carries better speed through the corners, esp the high speed stuff... toe out makes the car too twichy... more suited to drift setup...
-2.5 camber 3.5 caster is a good setup to start with. i get a good graining across the face of the tyre (14" advan 048) with this setup. The car is very netural, you can oversteer or understeer at will if you know what your doing. Just play with the tire pressures for adjustment.

stouty
10th June 2009, 09:32 PM
Cheers for the info the more ppl i talk to say run 0 toe so im going to give it a go.

Adsie
10th June 2009, 09:58 PM
Yeah I am going to try 0 toe aswell. Slightly off topic but are you the Fuckdoc off toymods who ran a 62 around the sprint track at QR? Do you have the specs of your car online? I am currently running 64s and looking for ways to improve grip. If you don't want to share your suspension secrets that no problem :)

KKUSTOM
13th June 2009, 09:45 AM
What Alignment set up would u run for the tight corners and cones of motorkhana?
it's low seepd so could u run more +toe?

Funkdoc
15th June 2009, 06:30 PM
Yeah, used to be on toymods and the old AE86dc forums. Been away for a while. I really haven't got much secrects with suspension setup. I'm running Tein coilovers, whiteline adjustable sway bars on the softest setting front and rear. Front springs are 7kg and the rear are progressive 4-6kg springs (not coilovers). Traction brackets, whitleline panhard rod. The rest is stock, with new bushes etc.Thats about it for suspension.
Engine was a blacktop 20v with mild cams, made about 105kw @ wheels.
I was thinking about gettin back into it... the cars been sitting on jackstands for about 2 years now...

Konakid
15th June 2009, 07:19 PM
What Alignment set up would u run for the right corners and cones of motorkhana?
it's low seepd so could u run more +toe?

the only thing toe in or positive toe is good for is stability in a straight line and tyre wear.

Run 0 toe and see how you like it, if you want the car to be more sensitive to steering inputs when you turn in run more toe out.

KKUSTOM
15th June 2009, 09:17 PM
^^^^ thanks man

cracker
9th January 2010, 12:22 PM
im running
-2.5 camber
+4.5 castor
+0.5mm toe out per side find its really grippy and holds well!

ke_70
8th June 2010, 07:21 PM
got my alignment today for daily spec grip

-2 camber
+3.5 castor
0 toe

i wanted to get -3 camber and +4 castor but theyre both maxed out :S

AJPS
8th June 2010, 07:53 PM
-3 camber is too much for the street i reckon

hachi_dk
9th June 2010, 02:50 PM
^ i agree.
the camber wear on my advan AD07'S was ridiculous and that was after about 1000k's.

my specs were:
5.5+ castor
-3 camber
1mm total toe out

handled like it was on rails though.

floody
9th June 2010, 03:11 PM
What a lot of people think is 'camber wear' is probably exacerbated a lot by toe out. But 3.5 degrees is ridiculous for a street car, I really doubt you'd often load it up enough to use the tyre footprint. Half that is plenty!

Less camber, closer to 0 toe, more castor is a better setup IMO.

hachi_dk
9th June 2010, 03:32 PM
yeh, toe out + camber = fucked tyres.

but anyway, after lowering my coilies the other day (I now have 50mm of clearance to the ground)
i need another alignment.

i will be going with the following specs:

-2.5 camber
5.5+ caster
0mm toe

AJPS
9th June 2010, 04:01 PM
I really rate toe out

0 toe makes the steering feel a bit vague i reckon

At the expense of tyre wear obviously

ke_70
9th June 2010, 04:14 PM
yeah this is the first time ive gone for 0 toe
just has no turn in, feels alittle bit floaty until castor kicks in
feels alot safer up at 160 in the hills now though

floody
10th June 2010, 12:41 AM
Yeah I like the turn in feel of a bit of toe out, but the tyre wear tradeoff is massive really when you crank it up and twitchy isn't the best, its worse with bigger wheels and wider rubber too.

Dongaz
17th July 2010, 12:47 AM
Does anyone know what the relation for caster to length the LCA is brought foward is?
Eg. The LCA is 20mm foward of it being at 0 caster would equate to...?

Just trying to find out how much I can run without cutting my guards before I take it to get an alignment.

blair
17th July 2010, 12:07 PM
Just tell them to wind it forward till they hit the guards, then back a couple of turns? (or in my case, leave it touching the guards :P)

Dongaz
17th July 2010, 03:44 PM
That's not really that helpful as I can do that at home. I am also trying to leave room for suspension movement and doing it with droop only atm as well.

plohl
18th July 2010, 12:26 PM
How do you guys find the lots of caster? I assume most are running no PS - does it get very heavy to steer?

AJPS
18th July 2010, 11:35 PM
How do you guys find the lots of caster? I assume most are running no PS - does it get very heavy to steer?

its heavy, but you get used to it (ive got quick rack and locked diff too)

xero
19th July 2010, 07:22 PM
Does anyone know what the relation for caster to length the LCA is brought foward is?
Eg. The LCA is 20mm foward of it being at 0 caster would equate to...?

Just trying to find out how much I can run without cutting my guards before I take it to get an alignment.

about 4-5 deg positive on castor. my front bar is munted and i cant run any more than that due it hitting the front bumper.

plohl
22nd July 2010, 02:50 PM
its heavy, but you get used to it (ive got quick rack and locked diff too)

How many tunrs lock to lock on the rack?

Also - random question - does anyone know what sort of settings people run on fwds? like celica's, fwd rolla's etc.

AJPS
22nd July 2010, 04:58 PM
2.5 + a bit, i got 3 extra teeth cut in

I run ps arms too

trikzlane
25th July 2010, 01:30 PM
you dont really was heaps of pos castor on fwd as the cv shafts can be only bad angles, i.e wear out faster, you want 0 to just pos to be happy

Jonny Rochester
6th August 2010, 09:22 PM
Also - random question - does anyone know what sort of settings people run on fwds? like celica's, fwd rolla's etc.

With AE92, AE112, ST204 etc.. the main difference (from KE70) is that you have adjustable toe on the rear. With any car, you would want some toe-in on the rear which greatly increases stability in a straight line and grip on a fast corner. With a AE86/KE70 you are stuck with zero toe on the rear and have to live with it, it's switchy, which is no problem for drift. With IRS cars, you can adjust it for toe-in on the rear. Typically 3 degrees total, so 1.5 degrees toe-in each side. You can have 4 degrees total if you want. It's fine and won't wear the rear tyres.

The other advantage of IRS over live axle is you can often have negative camber. Again, the car will tolerate more camber on the rear than the front without the tyres wearing badly (on FWD). And you will get better stability and grip. Look at a modern little Toyota (ZRE152 Corolla, NCP90 Yaris) and you will visually see negative camber on the rear. Sadly these cars are not adjustable, and the angle is set in the beam. With a AE92 the camber is not adjustable either, but it is easy to use "magic camber" bolts or similar to do it.

With a bit or rear camber/toe, you can see how a normal person can drive a AE92 around a corner faster and safer than a AE86. Maybe the AE86 could go as fast (with same tyres and engine) but it would be a hair raising mix of understeer and drift that ends in a crash 10% of the time.

The setting on the front of a FWD will be much the same as any other car. There used to be a old rule of thumb giving FWD cars toe-out on the front, and RWD car toe-in on the front. I would think this is due to soggy bushes. (Think AE82 vs RT104 or something). With a modern car which has more solid joints and bushes, I think you just run very close to zero toe on the front.

plohl
7th August 2010, 12:56 PM
^ thanks for the detailed reply

The car is my st162 celica - i was hoping to get something rwd (86 or mx5) but havent the funds atm, so will be rocking the fwd for a bit longer haha. Will have a look and see what i can do with it - i have some camber adjustment on the front hubs, but have not had a look to see how much i can get. All the bushey have been replaced with nylon ones, so will see what i can do with the toe. Have been tossing up whether to get some camber/caster strut tops for it that are going cheap on one of the celica forums, they are similar to the noltec ones.

Might have a play this weekend and see what i can come up with.

Rice86
18th November 2010, 11:10 AM
With AE92, AE112, ST204 etc.. the main difference (from KE70) is that you have adjustable toe on the rear. With any car, you would want some toe-in on the rear which greatly increases stability in a straight line and grip on a fast corner. With a AE86/KE70 you are stuck with zero toe on the rear and have to live with it, it's switchy, which is no problem for drift. With IRS cars, you can adjust it for toe-in on the rear. Typically 3 degrees total, so 1.5 degrees toe-in each side. You can have 4 degrees total if you want. It's fine and won't wear the rear tyres.

The other advantage of IRS over live axle is you can often have negative camber. Again, the car will tolerate more camber on the rear than the front without the tyres wearing badly (on FWD). And you will get better stability and grip. Look at a modern little Toyota (ZRE152 Corolla, NCP90 Yaris) and you will visually see negative camber on the rear. Sadly these cars are not adjustable, and the angle is set in the beam. With a AE92 the camber is not adjustable either, but it is easy to use "magic camber" bolts or similar to do it.

With a bit or rear camber/toe, you can see how a normal person can drive a AE92 around a corner faster and safer than a AE86. Maybe the AE86 could go as fast (with same tyres and engine) but it would be a hair raising mix of understeer and drift that ends in a crash 10% of the time.

The setting on the front of a FWD will be much the same as any other car. There used to be a old rule of thumb giving FWD cars toe-out on the front, and RWD car toe-in on the front. I would think this is due to soggy bushes. (Think AE82 vs RT104 or something). With a modern car which has more solid joints and bushes, I think you just run very close to zero toe on the front.

only thing worth ready in this whole thread...=p
good post thats for sure

KE70GT
19th November 2010, 11:55 PM
All of theses alignment specs are semi useless if people don't say what size tyres there running

cae-086
30th November 2010, 10:09 PM
The first thing you need to do is find a good tyre shop, with guys who know what they are doing on a wheel alignment machine. If your car has coilovers, the shop should weigh the car on corner scales, with the driver in it. Whats the point of aligning a car with no driver. It doesnt get driven without a driver in the front seat. I know this coz my old work van would toe out 4.5 degrees when i got in! Once the weights are set correctly, then you can start taking initial measurements and adjusting. Everything is a variable, and what works on one car might chew tyres and handle like crap on another. Again, a good old school mechanic on the wheel alignment machine should be able to tell you all this anyway.
If you see a shop with race/performance cars hanging around, it is probably a better option than a shop with lowered commodores and burnout marks out the front!

Konakid
30th November 2010, 11:46 PM
^^^^^Very good points, still want to get my car corner weighted, pity its around $200

Adsie
8th December 2010, 10:09 AM
I got a wheel alignment the other day and apparently my diff has toe in, about 1.4mm overall. Has anyone else found this with their solid rear ends, is this normal?

Rice86
8th December 2010, 01:20 PM
wouldnt have a clue if that is normal or not, but you would have better grip turning for the rear end with that lol

KE70GT
8th December 2010, 07:52 PM
I got a wheel alignment the other day and apparently my diff has toe in, about 1.4mm overall. Has anyone else found this with their solid rear ends, is this normal?
Sounds like a bent axle or wheel, jack the back off the car up and roll it over in 1st and see if it’s bent

Adsie
9th December 2010, 01:25 PM
Wouldn't think my wheel is bent, thought that would be very noticeable when driving with vibrations. Will jack it up on the weekend and have a look anyway.

LittleRedSpirit
1st January 2011, 02:14 PM
Sometimes racers will bend their housings slightly to get some sort of toe or camber on a live rear end. Its a bit harder on your bearings and splines but for weekend to weekend racing its fine to do.

sundee
7th January 2011, 10:01 PM
I got a wheel alignment the other day and apparently my diff has toe in, about 1.4mm overall. Has anyone else found this with their solid rear ends, is this normal?

i was under the impression that a live axel would be set to 0' toe angle...but when i was doing the brake conversion on my F diff, doing some measuring, i found the same thing, from memory i can remember if its toe in or out, BUT it is identical both sides... something someone has take alot of care in doing (because its so precise) or its done from the factory?

would be interesting to see if others have the same? bearing in mind their is no wheel alignment to do on the rear of live axle cars ( unless adj 4 link etc) i wonder if anyone has bothered to read the printout from the aligner as they usually still measure the rear specs regardless?

Adsie
11th January 2011, 05:15 PM
Mine had the specs because I have adjustable arms and ask them to make sure it was straight. Not sure if they would have even bothered checking the rear if I hadn't asked

MAGIC MAN
12th January 2011, 01:34 AM
Ok front wheel alignment i use to run, -4deg camber +8deg castor 0 toe on front, i modified my diff housing to have 1mm toe in and -1.5deg camber. The incresed front castor made the car track very well at high speeds, a little harder to turn on low to mid speed corners although the steering self centred which was great.

However i did have a widened front track, and the car suffered very little understeer

ke_70
12th January 2011, 09:10 AM
what tyres were you running beau?

MAGIC MAN
12th January 2011, 11:33 AM
I was using falken azenis rt 215 so nothing special