Help me pass EPA

[DR86TY]

Hey all,

Ive been hit with an epa notice.

Went and got tested, passed nosie but not emissions.

I need to find a standard 20v silvertop catalic converter as my universal one didn't pass :(

If not im gonig to have to convert back to a 4ac to get passed which i will not be pleased about.

So if any one can help please do if not who wants to help me find a 4ac and fit it up for as much beer as they can drink during the build :)

Cheers
Guys

[dave2221]

suggestion

can you get a mega restrictive 2nd hand cat from exhaust shop????

as long as that cleans up emissions you should be good yes? shouldnt necessarily need to be a 20v std one.....??

just get a huge one (exhaust shops would chuck heaps out after upgrading peoples exhausts) prob cost you $15

[DR86TY]

The (Jerk) guy who failed me has listed down non standard cat converter, non standard motor, non standard ecu.

So i have installed a universal cat converter, it has the standard ecu plugged in, and the 20v is out of an australian delivered corolla.

So im up shit creek without a paddle because if i have to get my car tested for emmissions ill have to have it put back to complete bog stock from factory, and my chances of finding a 4ac that still works and will get me to a checking station is bugger all.

so i think this might be the day my sprinter is taken off the road :(

[reecegze]

with a standard ecu you shouldnt be tested for emissions as nothing standard would alter the a/f ratios... i would be looking at replacing the o2 sensor checking the afm etc.

Did they look at the scale of what the year the motor was made ? or what the year of the car was made

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Did you have a chat to the guy and see what is needed to get it passed? Did it fail a gas test? Or did he jsut not like the look of your cat?

If it were me I'd try and get as much info out of him as possible so you can get everything spot on next time.

Also I didn't think 20Vs were ever Aus delivered, but could quite easily be wrong there. Plus finding a 4AC in running order is ridiculously easy if worst comes to worst.

Hen

[ke70dave]

yer i dont think 20V's are aus delivered. didnt they only come in those levins or sprinters? (fwd ae92 looking things)

and surely a replacement catalytic converter is sufficient, dont cat convertors only last 5yrs or so any way?

pluss i paid 300$ for my "high flow" cat so it better be legal!!!

[focus_7]

20v came in AE111, were they ADM?

[dr1ft-pig]

cut a section out of your zorst put flanges at either end fill it hard up with steel woolwhen putting it in put think chicken wire in between both flanges so the shit doesnt go astray... that should catch alot of the shit and givwe you a better reading

[DR86TY]

yeh, failed emissions for not having the catalic converter for that engine.
so i quizzed the guy and told him it would be impossible to find a cat for that motor that is still alive.

but he informed that i needed to be stock to pass.
also the ecu is not standard for that car as it came with a carby engine.

one big fml

[Jonny Rochester]

Your car has obviously been converted, and almost no conversion is perfect, compromises are made.

I surgest taking your car to a good auto electician who does these sort of conversions. Get them to check it out, to make sure every wire and feature of the ECU is hooked up and used. Idle control, VVT, O2 sensor, canister vapour control etc...

I don't know much about exhaust, but I guess if the motor and ECU is good, a universal 3-way cat should be good enough.

20valve is from Japan obvioulsy, never sold here. Also sold in South Africa.

[DR86TY]

the ecu is a toyota model for a 4age.
What i think he is getting at is that its not standard for that car i.e not a carby computer if carby's run a computer i have no idea (im gen y)

so who out there wants to help me put in a 4ac

[Jonny Rochester]

4A-C is ridiculous. There must be a way, but I don't know what EPA is or what country your in. Or you think everyones car is only regoed with a 4A-C?

[Nikkojoe]

How far back in the system is your cat? The further back it is, the less effective.

A standard cat for the car could be had off a 16V 4age (fwd ae82/ae92 spec or if you want to be year specific try and get an ae101/ae111 cat).

[nelpd96|]

What state is this in and have you got a copy of the print out for the emissions test? The reason that I ask is that they can only test you up to and including the ADR's that your vehicle was manufactured against. What year model is it? If you have a copy of the results I will be able to tell you where, if at all it is failing to meet the ADR's

[DR86TY]

Im in NSW,

ive only gone to a registered workshop to clear the epa notice, and the guy that i delt with was a complete ass.

Its listed as non complying cat, non complying ecu and non complying motor.

All because the chassis nubmer says this car runs a 4ac.

So im really not sure as to what i should do. ive already forked out a grand to get the exhaust done and its still not right, this will in the end cost me around 2.5k just to keep it on the road.

[egg_83]

Has the engine been engineered for the car?
Iv been pulled up in qld and as long as the engine and mods are approved iv never had a problem, been put over the pits a few times and only got me for too low.

[nelpd96|]

Ok if your car is pre 1 July 1985 it is not required to pass the IM240 emissions test. ie ADR 37. You will have to have a charcoal canister hooked up to capture vapour from the tank and have no more that the following

2.1 grams per KM for Hydrocarbons
24.2 grams per KM for Carbon Monoxide, and
1.9 grams per KM for Nitrogen oxides.

This is straight from ADR27C which is what you should be tested against.

Technically the vehicle should be engineered for the engine change because it exceeds the allowable 20% increase in power for simple modifications. I find it hard to believe that you had to spend $1000 just to get and exhaust that will pass the noise test. I have got a $100 2.5" Lukey muffler in mine and it is very quiet.

If you have any other questions please let me know and I will see what I can track down. Just so you know also the IM240 emission test is supposed to be free and is the only test that will allow you to get the above measurements. A static test is not going to be able to prove anything.

Cheers
Paul

[pen15]

i have heard that swines piss will neutralize the gasses they test against as a friend of mine is going through an epa Delmar atm i was told get a pig to piss in a jug and just before you get to the epa station poor some swines piss down the extractors and you will pass for emissions this is an old school way of doing it apparently been around for years

but is it for the modifications or the fact it is failing the emissions test itself

[PeakingDuck]

The (Jerk) guy who failed me has listed down non standard cat converter, non standard motor, non standard ecu.

What a cunt, where did you get your car tested at? Because i'm due for a reaming very soon >@

[skiddlz]

ok...high jacked

my adm 86 failed too.. but not by much..gave the epa a mouth full but to no avial!

engine: stock 4age 16v running microtec lt10 on a lean tune
petrol: e85 ( found at limited servo's )

0.62 grams per KM for Hydrocarbons
1.0 grams per KM for Carbon Monoxide
2.1 grams per KM for Nitrogen oxides. (fail)

from what i know.. correct me if im wrong is that when your buring most of the fuel this causes the temp in the exhuast to be abit higer, causing the nitrogen oxides to read more.... bla bla bla...

so..... should i just get a new cat, since its been about 1 year and a half old, or should i get a retune to run a bit richer, or does this stuff everything up?

i only need to pass by 0.2 for the nitrogen oxide

btw im in nsw and next test is in about 3 weeks at penrith rta.

[rthy]

what cat's are u guys running
alot of places sell high flow cats but dont even meet aus emission standards

[skiddlz]

yeah mines high flo..although it is pretty old.?

[PeakingDuck]

I gots a HKS cat, but I bet it's a piece of :steamer:

[nelpd96|]

Nitrogen oxide come from running lean, there is your problem.

Cheers
Paul

[skiddlz]

ok fair enough any suggestions?

[nelpd96|]

Ummmm, put in more fuel :) you have heaps of head room on the other area's so you could afford to push in a little more fuel to keep the exhaust temps down which is what allows the oxides to form.

[PeakingDuck]

On my Vehicle Inspection Notice it says: "This Notice requires you to take the mentioned vehicle to a DECC Approved Inspection Station for a noise test and an inspection of the vehicle's emission control devices by a DECC Approved Mechanic.

I'm assuming their just taking a look at whats on my car besides the noise test, so that means they won't be testing for emissions, is this correct?

[The Enthusiast]

So the car wasnt mod plated for the 20v conversion?
if it was would he only be able to get you on the emmisions and cat?

is it at all possible to get the engine engineered ?
or do you have to pass the Emissions test first before some one can engineer the motor?

Just a noob question sorry

Kind regards

Jack

[nelpd96|]

Ok guys, I cannot mak this much clearer, I have talked about this several times and no one seems to pay attention. You vehicle must remain compliant with the ADR's against which it was manufactured. So you must be able to meet the emissions that listed earlier as well as have a charcoal Canister for fumes from the tanks and a PCV valve fitted. If you have fitted a later model engine ie 20V then you are also supposed to have a cat convertor fitted, unleaded fuel filler nozzle and an unleaded only sticker on the inside of the fuel lid.

For noise, it will be a stationary noise test done at 4000rpm with the sound level meter 500mm away from the outlet of the exhaust and a minimum of 200mm of the ground. It should not exceed 95 dbA.

Cheers
Paul

[DR86TY]

Mine was very similar but at 4200 rpm, as for getting it checked they dont do an emissions test, there job is to check its all in place and not tampered with, so you need a cat, hot dog and muffler.

Ive got all those, the guy was just a royal ass.

[PeakingDuck]

Mine was very similar but at 4200 rpm, as for getting it checked they dont do an emissions test, there job is to check its all in place and not tampered with, so you need a cat, hot dog and muffler.

Ive got all those, the guy was just a royal ass.

Which Inspection Station did you go to?

[PeakingDuck]

For noise, it will be a stationary noise test done at 4000rpm with the sound level meter 500mm away from the outlet of the exhaust and a minimum of 200mm of the ground. It should not exceed 95 dbA.

Cheers
Paul

Mine will be tested at 4950rpm and not exceed 90dba :shout:

[nelpd96|]

I guess I should ask what car and what engine, assuming you are in Sydney

[PeakingDuck]

JDM AE86 with a smallport 16v.

[nelpd96|]

The engine speed is supposed to be at the revs that max power is made, or if that is unavailable then for a 4 cyl it is 4000rpm. I would think that the max noise would should also be 95dbA as that is what it is in the ACT. Have you tried giving the tech standards guys a call to check? 90dbA is pretty low

[PeakingDuck]

Yea man I tried calling the techs but their always not around apparently.

Emissions Inspection is gonna be a itch-bay, I've got twin webers, SAFC, a/m ecu etc....

[nelpd96|]

Ummm, webers are carbies which means you can't run a SAFC or aftermarket ecu???

[PeakingDuck]

My bad, their converted to EFI.

[shakes]

Ok guys, I cannot mak this much clearer, I have talked about this several times and no one seems to pay attention. You vehicle must remain compliant with the ADR's against which it was manufactured. So you must be able to meet the emissions that listed earlier as well as have a charcoal Canister for fumes from the tanks and a PCV valve fitted. If you have fitted a later model engine ie 20V then you are also supposed to have a cat convertor fitted, unleaded fuel filler nozzle and an unleaded only sticker on the inside of the fuel lid.

For noise, it will be a stationary noise test done at 4000rpm with the sound level meter 500mm away from the outlet of the exhaust and a minimum of 200mm of the ground. It should not exceed 95 dbA.

Cheers
Paul

the few dealings I've had (bear in mind this is victorian specific) For emissions they use which ever adr is more stringent. usually the engine..

[nelpd96|]

The whole ADR thing is not state legislation but Commonwealth, I have yet to see anywhere that it is written that you must comply with the emissions for the engine, if it is newer than the car. Not trying to be a smart arse, I have just never seen it.

[Drew]

hey all i got EPA about 2 months ago got defected as well.
so i got the sprinter enginered 16v standered computer and non standered cat mod exhurst.
So if u live in sydney u will prob go to a place call arcers motor repairs in sliverwater.
they will test the car at 4200rpm and it can only b 90db. they will also check that all your hoses are coneckted and if your running a standered air box and standered exhurst and ECU. the guys want your carr to b pretty much factory, just the engine not the whole car derr.

So mine failed the first time cause i didnt have a standered cat, muffler, airbox, fuel pump and some hoses werent coneckted.

So if u have an engineres report like i did its not going to help at all they want your carr standered and if its not they will just fail u they dont care. i dont no wat they would say about a 20v with the quards but i had so much trouble wit a 16v standered.

So i went and replaced pretty much every thing there and it passed the second time.


Then u will prob have to go to the RTA test place a Botany, always a 3 week waiting list pain in the ass.
Now mine failed the first test bad so i went and replaced the old cat and put in a really restrickive cat in and it passed.

So $1500 later it passed i would rather a fine

There is a lot of ways u can trick the guys by putting in a fake ECU and stuff like that but its so much safer to do it the harder way just takes time. Good luck to the next person.

[Golberg]

The whole ADR thing is not state legislation but Commonwealth, I have yet to see anywhere that it is written that you must comply with the emissions for the engine, if it is newer than the car. Not trying to be a smart arse, I have just never seen it.

Taken directly from the NSW RTA's VSI 06:

"To ensure continued compliance with emission standards, any replacement engine should come from a vehicle which is subject to the same or more stringent emission control requirements. An alternative is for an earlier engine to be upgraded during reconditioning to more recent engine specifications. All anti-pollution devices should be fitted and functional."

Whilst this doesn't say all emmissions devices from the donor car must be used in conjunction with the new engine, it is implied. I have confirmed it several times with the RTA over the phone, and its one thing they are very hard on.

This the case for NSW, and I'm lead to believe their even harder on things in VIC. But the ACT on the other hand has a name for very relaxed vehicle modification laws.

[Wiggles]

i have heard that swines piss will neutralize the gasses they test against as a friend of mine is going through an epa Delmar atm i was told get a pig to piss in a jug and just before you get to the epa station poor some swines piss down the extractors and you will pass for emissions this is an old school way of doing it apparently been around for years

but is it for the modifications or the fact it is failing the emissions test itself

What the Fuck?
How the fuck do you get a pig to piss in a jug?

Are you getting confused with the new clean diesels that have Urea injection to reduce emissions?
http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060829/FREE/60828027/1041/PROMOBLOG01

Cause hey, if you want to crawl around a pig pen refilling your piss jug that's cool man. I just don't think that it's going to do anything to a petrol engine.

Oh, and DR86TY, do the usual stuff, new cat, new/clean plugs and make sure the timing is right and the emission stuff is per factory and that should make a bit of a difference.

Also, get your 20v conversion engineered, it'll save you a heap of hassles in the long run.