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Thread: Toyota pull out of Australian Rally Championship

  1. #11
    Veteran Jonny Rochester's Avatar
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    I can only use google like everyone else, but I think Neal Bates owns everything. He has the workshop in Canberra of course, Neil Bates Motorsport, and I think he must own all the vehicles as well. Toyota have just paid him to do rally under the Toyota name. And maybe they still have a tyre sponsor?

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    Senior Member SEXY 16's Avatar
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    great news
    these cars should not be allowed to run anyway
    toyota have cams in there pocket with these cars
    great news for privateers with normal cars running against a team with no rules
    flame me if you want every other rally man thinks the same as me

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    Senior Member Moebius's Avatar
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    You are right if you are talking about the old Group N (P) cars they used to use, but the S2000 cars are full FIA spec.

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    Veteran Andy San's Avatar
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    doesn't really change too much anyway, there weren't any other factory teams to compete with them.
    Andy

    Quote Originally Posted by slide86 View Post
    I will however take take the water from the washer bottle posted to a boat in the southern pacific....express please

  • #15
    Senior Member gslrallysport's Avatar
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    There was nothing every stopping a privateer making a Group N(P) car as a manufacturer agent if they wanted to. In fact, last time I checked, Neil Bates motorsport is a privateer organization acting as a manufacturer agent. Neil Bates Motorsport is not owned by Toyota.

    And what gives you the right to say that only Subaru and Mitsubishi should be allowed to run. Thanks to Group N(P) cams were able to keep toyota in the sport, and get Ford to enter it. This is well before the age of S2000.

    I applaud CAMS for having the balls to do something that wasn't influenced and dictated by the FIA. Group N(P) is the closest thing we have to Rally America's VERY SUCCESSFUL Open Regs. How about we look at what is working elsewhere in the world instead of being so tied up in going over the same problems here over and over...

    In America Hyundai Rally a Tiburon that is regularly at the pointy end of the field, and has won an outright event in the last 12 months, which is great for Hyundai! There's no possible way in Australia that under Group N, Group A, or PRC as a 2WD car that Hyundai could get the same return on investment, cause that car just wouldn't be competitive. And the thing is WAY to heavy to be suitable as a S2000 car. But a Tiburon with EvoX running gear under Group N(P), build to all the same restrictions and requirements as a Group N EvoX would provide Hyundai (or any other manufacturer) with a relatively cheap entry to the ARC at the pointy end.

    To flame Group N(P) on the basis that it's not sanctioned by the FIA, is the same narrow minded attitude that will continue to hold gravel rallying back, whilst motorsport disciplines like drag racing, drifting and indeed tarmac rallying continue to flourish.

    great news for privateers with normal cars
    Funny that, because last time I checked there were two privateer teams running Group N(P) cars in the ARC, Stewart Reid and Glen Raymond...
    Last edited by gslrallysport; 28th February 2009 at 02:24 PM.
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  • #16
    carbonae86
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    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    ...well there's easily the most uneducated, unfounded comment I've ever seen posted on an internet forum.

    There was nothing every stopping a privateer making a Group N(P) car as a manufacturer agent if they wanted to. In fact, last time I checked, Neil Bates motorsport is a privateer organization acting as a manufacturer agent. Neil Bates Motorsport is not owned by Toyota.

    Would a N/a 2000cc engine with 280hp at 8500rpm with its restrictor cost alot more than a restricted turbo engine that has the power output already in stock form ? I dont know many people out there within Australia who could even given the toyota budget build such engine and the car as a complete package to go with it ? any F1 teams here.

    Lets look at the base car vs the end result ! apart from the body panels is there anything that links any part to the production model. Are people that stupid they think there pos corolla is a rally winning vehicle. Does anyone see a corolla at a set of lights smoking away at idle due to slipper rings ? you couldnt even see the rear of those rally cars at stage start by the end of events.

    It really makes no logical sence to run these car when the figure head WRC cars and group N are still using factory turbocharged cars that produce the same outputs restricted as mega dollar 2000cc engines with far more reliability for less cost.

    Your right with tarmac rallying as there are alot of ex supercar/touring car people employed building these car with large budgets now like ralliart aus, maybe its due to the cars being still based on road cars you can buy. It might offer better marketing advantages over dirt. Who in the masses drives a car on dirt mostly anyway.

    Stewart Reid and Glen Raymond there ex Bate motorsport car so your point there was ? and why would any manufacture want to build a car with a engine from someone else ? A Hyundai with evo x running gear just shows that yanks dont know shit about rallying like any other form of motorsport not born there. If Hyundai thought it might be worth while investing wouldnt they just employ a company to build them a car around there factory one like they outsource making there road cars handle to porsche. They maybe see rally in the USA not worth the cost for the return over even drift there.

    To insult Sexy about his views on rallying is really a laugh his family have been involved in the sport maybe before you where born. I seems alot of people here alos share the view that the toyota s2000 was only good for toyota and not the sport. Anyone remember when Bates tryed commentating on the WRC ? or was it a ARC round and they canned him after one telecast ? that had to be the most boring program of rallying in Australian history.

  • #17
    Senior Member gslrallysport's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by carbonae86 View Post
    Would a N/a 2000cc engine with 280hp at 8500rpm with its restrictor cost alot more than a restricted turbo engine that has the power output already in stock form ?
    Um, what point are you trying to get across here? That you don't like S2000? Pretty sure I've been talking about Group N(P) the whole time... which is the highlighted part of your above comment...

    Lets look at the base car vs the end result ! apart from the body panels is there anything that links any part to the production model.
    I dunno, why you don't you ask Australia's largest, most publicized, most followed, most televised, most sponsored and most attended motorsport championship, and come back to me with how many parts a VE Taxi shares with a VE HRT? I personally hate the V8's with a passion, but credit where credit's due, it's a turd well polished.

    It really makes no logical sence to run these car when the figure head WRC cars and group N are still using factory turbocharged cars that produce the same outputs restricted as mega dollar 2000cc engines with far more reliability for less cost.
    A WRC car cheaper than what??? A Bugatti Veyron...

    You've got a problem with S2000, which again, wasn't what I was talking about, but that's for the heads up. And you might like to check the entry lists for WRC events a bit more regularly (say since 2007), because S2000 car have been there for a while mate... And there's currently an S2000 car leading the production car world rally championship:
    http://wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=901...%20P-WRC%20win
    So quick, you'd better ring up the FIA ask how can an S2000 car be winning a championship it's not involved with...

    By your reasoning we should only be able to rally WRXs and EVOs. I'm not a massive fan of S2000, primarily because the gearbox alone costs more than a factory WRX, but last time I checked there were over 10 different manufacturers with FIA homologated S2000 cars. If you've been following the IRC (which by your ignorance towards S2000 cars in the WRC I highly doubt) you'll see what exciting rallying that can produce.

    Stewart Reid and Glen Raymond there ex Bate motorsport car so your point there was ?
    The comment was "great news for privateers with normal cars", which is hard to swallow when two of the leading privateers are running Group N(P) cars. Indeed for the last two years it has ONLY been privateers running Group N(P) cars.

    and why would any manufacture want to build a car with a engine from someone else ? A Hyundai with evo x running gear just shows that yanks dont know shit about rallying like any other form of motorsport not born there.
    The Tiburon that Hyundai rally in America has a Hyundai motor, it's bolted up to an evo6 box and transfer case, and a WRX rear subframe and diff. Marketing say it has Sante Fe running gear, and the public are none the wiser. And they have sales figures to prove it.

    What they did is absolutely no different (and infact, about a quater of the price) to building an FIA S2000 car, using Sadev gearbox, transfer case and rear diff. Doesn't matter whether it's mitsubshi or sadev, the end result is the same, and the former option is far and away cheaper, and a known quantity.

    And you might like to have a a look at participation levels, spectator numbers, and level of competitiveness of Rally America before you start defending our piss ant ARC. I personally am not a big America fan, but the one thing I do have utter respect for is Rally America, and the way that championship is run, not least of which was getting it to the X Games, and pulling a drawcard like Colin McCrae. But given I don't think you've even heard of the aforementioned IRC, I doubt very much that you actually have any idea of the credentials of Rally America.

    To insult Sexy about his views on rallying is really a laugh his family have been involved in the sport maybe before you where born.
    I wasn't insulting him, but saying that every rally person shares his view is BS, because that's simply not the case...

    I seems alot of people here alos share the view that the toyota s2000 was only good for toyota and not the sport.
    As do I to some degree. They built a car with a gearbox alone that costs more than most group N cars do from the factory... what's your point? No where did I ever say anything about S2000 being good or bad.

    You've quoted something I said about Group N(P), and wasted a 6 paragraph post talking about S2000...
    Last edited by gslrallysport; 27th February 2009 at 11:26 AM.
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  • #18
    carbonae86
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    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    Um, what point are you trying to get across here? That you don't like S2000? Pretty sure I've been talking about Group N(P) the whole time... which is the highlighted part of your above comment...
    Last time i checked Group N{P} the {P} stood for prototype and S2000 vehicles are just that , maybe thats why the rules since 2002 have stated that you only have to build one car. My comment is about cost for poweroutput regardless of class. But you going to have to be a stupid to not want to build a 2000cc with a 64mm throttle vs a 34mm restrictor as one will have maybe as much as 333hp since that has been reached vs 313hp.

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    I dunno, why you don't you ask Australia's largest, most publicized, most followed, most televised, most sponsored and most attended motorsport championship, and come back to me with how many parts a VE Taxi shares with a VE HRT? I personally hate the V8's with a passion, but credit where credit's due, it's a turd well polished.
    Funny how a class where the vehicles are governed to be the same in performance makes the sport grow ! no matter if everybody dislikes the dated technologue its entertainment and thats what most people watch sport for.

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    A WRC car cheaper than what??? A Bugatti Veyron...
    Think apples to oranges ! you maybe should inform people of the real costs and they can make up there own mind if rallying is worth it and why maybe so many manufactures have dropped it quick smart. Building only one or two cars is never going to be cheap and thats why in history S2000 is going to fail.
    FIA CAMS rules on cost of kit vehicle is $120.000 in kit form or $150.000 complete. Now is really strange that before we even get into development cost you have the two ex borring as bat shit bates cars selling for more than the CAMS rules second hand.
    Now comes the real cost for a manufacture to make one of these cars. In the WRC Peugeot started to design a S2000 car they stopped development after spending over $355.000aud without so much as a part built ! You can buy a BMW WTCC for $500.000 so how much would the finished price been for a S22000 pug .

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    You've got a problem with S2000, which again, wasn't what I was talking about, but that's for the heads up. And you might like to check the entry lists for WRC events a bit more regularly (say since 2007), because S2000 car have been there for a while mate... And there's currently an S2000 car leading the production car world rally championship:
    http://wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=901...%20P-WRC%20win
    So quick, you'd better ring up the FIA ask how can an S2000 car be winning a championship it's not involved with...
    What ? that really makes no sence ! heads up ? that your comparing a prototype vehicle in class N{P} to a production group N car. It doesnt take the FIA to work out that a car costing twice in value better be faster and winning. And look at the times there only seconds quicker

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    By your reasoning we should only be able to rally WRXs and EVOs. I'm not a massive fan of S2000, primarily because the gearbox alone costs more than a factory WRX, but last time I checked there were over 10 different manufacturers with FIA homologated S2000 cars. If you've been following the IRC (which by your ignorance towards S2000 cars in the WRC I highly doubt) you'll see what exciting rallying that can produce.
    Man your contradicting yourself , one second defending S2000 one second saying your not a fan. No ignorance is needed just look at the passed S1600 class where the vehicle where going to cost $220.000+aud and where closer to $355.000 and real cost must have been close to that with cars selling second hand for $255.000. Not to even start about engine wear at 10.000rpm.

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    The comment was "great news for privateers with normal cars", which is hard to swallow when two of the leading privateers are running Group N(P) cars. Indeed for the last two years it has ONLY been privateers running Group N(P) cars.
    And ? hard to swallow that its pointless winning any race that only you can win

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    The Tiburon that Hyundai rally in America has a Hyundai motor, it's bolted up to an evo6 box and transfer case, and a WRX rear subframe and diff. Marketing say it has Sante Fe running gear, and the public are none the wiser. And they have sales figures to prove it.

    What they did is absolutely no different (and infact, about a quater of the price) to building an FIA S2000 car, using Sadev gearbox, transfer case and rear diff. Doesn't matter whether it's mitsubshi or sadev, the end result is the same, and the former option is far and away cheaper, and a known quantity..
    Maybe there figures have more to do with the car ? its price ? performance ? And since this is a Toyota site what are the people going to buy say a Celica

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    And you might like to have a a look at participation levels, spectator numbers, and level of competitiveness of Rally America before you start defending our piss ant ARC. I personally am not a big America fan, but the one thing I do have utter respect for is Rally America, and the way that championship is run, not least of which was getting it to the X Games, and pulling a drawcard like Colin McCrae. But given I don't think you've even heard of the aforementioned IRC, I doubt very much that you actually have any idea of the credentials of Rally America.
    I am getting as bored as watching bates now hmmm what the population of USA vs Australia . Maybe chart up the figures vs participation in percentage for all of us people with no idea of credentials of may not care due to living in Australia not USA.

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    I wasn't insulting him, but saying that every rally person shares his view is BS, because that's simply not the case...
    There doesnt seem to be alot of support for your views does there
    i am off to watch bates on TV hopefully he puts me so off the ARC that i dont miss a single WRC this year.

  • #19
    Senior Member gslrallysport's Avatar
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    You're having a laugh aren't ya??? Look, there's some very ignorant comments in there, and shows what a blatant lack of understanding you have of what you're talking about. I haven't got time to continue to argue with an amature, but here's a couple of standout winners...

    Last time i checked Group N{P} the {P} stood for prototype and S2000 vehicles are just that
    You seriously have got no idea what you're talking about do you? If you honestly beleive that a S2000 car is a Group N(P) then there's no point in arguing with you because you clearly have no idea. The two are nothing alike, are worlds apart technically, one is a worldwide formula sanctioned by the FIA, whilst the other is a set of regs that CAMS made themselves for Australia only...

    that your comparing a prototype vehicle in class N{P} to a production group N car.
    Seriously, WTF are you talking about??? I was clearly talking about the WRC there and a Group N(P) car HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER be allowed to compete in an international rally, let alone the WRC. The Toyota Group N(P) Corollas weren't even allowed to run in Rally of Canberra in the APRC, so where you have this idea that they're running in the WRC is beyond me mate...

    And ? hard to swallow that its pointless winning any race that only you can win
    Again, WTF? A Group N(P) car is eligible for the ARC, as is an S2000, and a production Group N(P).

    You need to seriously figure out what the difference is between an S2000, and a Group N(P), because right now trying to tell me they're the same thing, which is like saying that a GTP car is a V8 Supercar, it lacks any sort of basic understanding of technical regulations...

    FIA CAMS rules on cost of kit vehicle is $120.000 in kit form or $150.000 complete
    Nice to see you've managed to google the Group N(P) regs, then but then start talking about the Pug S2000? Where the connection there?

    When you can't even talk about the same car in a coherent paragraph, how do you expect me to take anything you're saying seriously?

    S2000 is going to fail. FIA CAMS rules on cost of kit vehicle is $120.000 in kit form or $150.000 complete.
    Ok, when you find where the FIA says that you have to build an S2000 car for less than $150,000 complete, I'll ring Nick (webmaster), ask him to ban me from this forum, keep my remaining sponsorship dollars, and never ever return to annoy you...
    Last edited by gslrallysport; 27th February 2009 at 06:55 PM.
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  • #20
    carbonae86
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    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    You're having a laugh aren't ya??? Look, there's some very ignorant comments in there, and shows what a blatant lack of understanding you have of what you're talking about. I haven't got time to continue to argue with an amature, but here's a couple of standout winners...
    This is a real laugh you think someone you dont know is a amature this is so boring for me

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    You seriously have got no idea what you're talking about do you? If you honestly beleive that a S2000 car is a Group N(P) then there's no point in arguing with you because you clearly have no idea. The two are nothing alike, are worlds apart technically, one is a worldwide formula sanctioned by the FIA, whilst the other is a set of regs that CAMS made themselves for Australia only...
    And where have i stated that they are the same thing , read it again !!!

    "Last time i checked Group N{P} the {P} stood for prototype and S2000 vehicles are just that , maybe thats why the rules since 2002 have stated that you only have to build one car."

    My comment is about cost for poweroutput regardless of class

    Here are classes if you cannot remember them

    Class N1 Group N up to and including 1400cc
    Class N2 - Group N over 1400cc, up to and including 1600cc
    Class N3 - Group N over 1600cc, up to and including 2000cc
    Class N4 - Group N over 2000cc [including N(P) and Super 2000]

    Wow wouldnt that class S2000 and N{P} in group N even tho my comments where about what the P stood for CAMS have just named it N{P} so they feel special that they can make some rules to which someone has to comply. Kennel prowed there are even if the rules are just copyied from FIA. They can sugar coat the naming and think its relating it to production vehicles but its there in print there the same RULES but COST aren't close to production based vehicles.

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    Seriously, WTF are you talking about??? I was clearly talking about the WRC there and a Group N(P) car HAS NEVER and WILL NEVER be allowed to compete in an international rally, let alone the WRC. The Toyota Group N(P) Corollas weren't even allowed to run in Rally of Canberra in the APRC, so where you have this idea that they're running in the WRC is beyond me mate..
    Since the ARC rules for N{P} cars { and we will get to that soon } are the same for S2000 cars wouldnt that mean N{P} cars as far as rules are concened are in WRC , IT THE SAME RULES Only rules change are between N/A and turbo ie restrictor size etc.

    Here is the FIA rules for S2000

    http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/E1999939AD85DCBCC125751D0052A020/$FILE/254A%20(09-10)-121208.pdf

    Here are the ARC rules

    http://www.rally.com.au/data/www.ral...0Regs%20V1.pdf

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    Again, WTF? A Group N(P) car is eligible for the ARC, as is an S2000, and a production Group N(P).

    You need to seriously figure out what the difference is between an S2000, and a Group N(P), because right now trying to tell me they're the same thing, which is like saying that a GTP car is a V8 Supercar, it lacks any sort of basic understanding of technical regulations...
    We where talking about the Toyota Corolla here even Toyota calls them S2000cars even if CAMS ARC whoever call them group N{P} or groups them as just that . You need to maybe read the regulations i just posted and tell us the differences then

    http://www.pressroom.com.au/press_ki...1000&kitID=253

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    Nice to see you've managed to google the Group N(P) regs, then but then start talking about the Pug S2000? Where the connection there?]
    When you can't even talk about the same car in a coherent paragraph, how do you expect me to take anything you're saying seriously?[/QUOTE]

    The information has nothing to do with CAMS silly naming or class rules ,but it gives people the facts of the cost of what a 2000CC group N{P} car would cost. Since you can read you would have already found the rules the same , so same car for the third time.

    Quote Originally Posted by gslrallysport View Post
    Ok, when you find where the FIA says that you have to build an S2000 car for less than $150,000 complete, I'll ring Nick (webmaster), ask him to ban me from this forum, keep my remaining sponsorship dollars, and never ever return to annoy you... Interesting theory considering the control Sadev gearbox alone is worth $75k... good luck with that!!!
    again " FIA CAMS rules on cost of kit vehicle is $120.000 in kit form or $150.000 complete "

    Well you really dont have to ring him as i sure he can read the following

    http://www.cams.com.au/bulletins/B02...egulations.pdf

    Section 5.1.5 bye bye

    And since its the same costing rule for all cars in that class

    http://www.pressroom.com.au/docs/toy/2007ToyMSspecs.pdf

    Theres the transmission you are going on about all the time , and the rule is $120-$150G so there is no point in trying to argue the group N{P}/s2000 whatever is cheap . It would cost more than any other teams would have spent in a years of racing. Maybe thats why it did F/A for the sport and the costs are bullshit. They really should get it banned whilst on the subject

    Basically when could you buy a 280hp 2000cc 4x4 corolla or in Australia a 4x4 turbo ? never so unless your brain dead the formula group N{P} S2000 or whatever you want to rename it is a complete waste of time as it lacks manufactures.

    Nick pm me if you need a few me to contact a few more sponsors that sell the same products as the one now leaving the site

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