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Thread: s13 front coilovers into 86/*e7*

  1. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by fantapants View Post
    also the bumpstear issue isnt really that big. i think it was ke70dave who did all the calculations in the last forum, but it worked out and less than a couple of mm at full stroke. correct me if wrong
    correct, been there done that, negligable bump steer, i calculated it to be about 2mm toe change over the entire shock stroke, from full bump to full rebound. i bet the 86 gear has this as well anyway. i should do some measurements.

    so i thought i would explain my experiences with the s13 gear and my new ae86 gear.

    old setup (had it for 4yrs), ca18 brakes, base adjustable and adjustable damping coilovers, standard mastercylinder.

    pros: cheapish, in a ke70 at least. epic lock out of the box.

    cons: weird steering compared to the 86 gear,steering tends to tighten up the more lock you wind on (i didnt notice it untill i drove with proper 86 stuff). s13 coilovers that are suitable for grip in light cars are VERY difficult to find. went through ~3 sets trying to find different ones, bought a few different spring rates along the way. i ended up with an ok setup, but it was still a little stiff.

    new setup: brand new everything, jap 86 calipers (rebuilt), vented discs, 40mm rca, kyb excel g inserts, 6kg springs (welded sleeve for coilovers) new brake lines, standard non-powersteering arms,

    conss: bloody expensive. (though that could be because i bought everything brand new)

    pros: steering is much more "normal" compared to s13 stuff, the effort required to turn from lock to lock is the same. a normal amount of track (though R31 arms have been sucessful in reducing track in s13 gear). its a much better setup compared to my s13 gear (though read on)

    so i have used both a "complete" ae86 setup (RCAs, jap brakes, coilovers yada yada) as well as a proper s13 setup, in the same car, and have used them back to back, so i belive i can make some pretty reasonable comparisons between them both.

    my oppinion is that both setups could be made to work well, its fairly obvios that the ae86 stuff works well straight out of the box since its based on standard equipment. but i still belive that the s13 gear could be made to work, but i did not like the "twitchyness" of the s13 gear. maybe if you bought some funky custom nuckels that reduced the steering speed of the s13 gear it might work well. though somepeople might like the REALLY quick steering. since driving around with standard 86 steering arms, although you do have to steer more, i find it easier to control, though i have not taken it through the twisty roads where the fast steering really was quite good. im a little hesitant to get the powersteering arms, anyone want to take me for a spin in a ke70/ae86 with power steering arms?

    to me the main draw back of the s13 gear was the difficulty in finding decent coilovers suited to grip (soft dampers that suit soft springs). its easy to find damper/spring combos that suit drifting but i was after more grip and unless i either bought brand new coilovers or had a pair revalved to suit it was difficult to find a good setup. and of course you can get new coilovers or get them revalved, but its not cheap, and the main calling card to s13 gear is its apparent cheapness.

    so to all the guys out there who plain out say "s13 gear is crap" i can say that is in fact not crap, it just needs a bit of work and planning to work well.
    Last edited by ke70dave; 20th August 2010 at 11:50 PM.
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    so ke70dave can you give a rough rundown on how you worked out the bumpsteer
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  • #73
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    admitedly it was a fairly crude method, i would like to try another method, jsut have to work out if i can be stuffed or not....

    what i did last time was took measurements of where the pivot points of the tie rod ball joint, rack end ball joint, and control arm ball joint and where it bolts to the chassis.

    so i just took measurements of where the points where in relation to each other at static height.

    i plotted these in a graphics program and proceded to scribe out the arcs that each of these items made throughout the chosen amount of bump.

    ive just been through my photobucket album and the diagrams are still up!!

    so here is the 50mm bump travel from static position


    the inner arc is the steering arm, and the outer arc is the LCA (note this is done with the steering straight ahead)

    you can see that the inner arc (tie rod) moves horizontally by 4.6mm and the out arc (LCA) moves horizontally by 3.52.

    so this to me sais that the wheel will tend to toe out by 1mm (so front wheels will toe out by 2mm total)

    now onto the 100mm bump analysis.

    same setup as before.



    this time the tie rod end moves horizontally by 16.08mm where as the LCA only moves 14.59, so 2mm of toe out?


    hmmm thats a fair bit actually...

    i wouldnt put to much faith in thenumbers them selves, but i think they are fairly ok.

    this is the measurements i took.



    keep in mind i did this with the car in full road condition with the wheels on, so not the greatest measurements, and it was nearly 3yrs ago...

    id like to try out a proper bump steer machine, or at least make something that straps to my wheel, and i take out the spring, and then move the wheel up and down in its travel and see if it turns.

    also i have a feeling that this whole idea goes out the window when you start moving the steering rack around, since then the tie rod ball joint isnt in the same position which will change the arc in which it moves....
    Last edited by ke70dave; 21st August 2010 at 10:22 AM.
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    Another way of measuring bump steer is to put the front on stands, then remove a spring from your strut and reinstall it.

    Attach a laser pointer to your hub face and point it at a bit of paper. Then with a jack under your LCA move the strut from full droop to full compression. The dot from the laser pointer will obviously move up and down, but if it moves side to side it idicates bump steer.

    From what I know most cars are built with toe-in during bump, so they become more stable. Toe-out on bump can be nasty apparently.

    I tend to agree with Dave, though could never be bothered writing it. S13 gear works fine for me. And I never noticed massive differences jumping directly from my AE86 with S13 front end to my other with XT130 struts, RA60 hubs and AE86 shocks (or even initially when it had stock AE86 bits).

    Hen

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    I am just curious how you where able to measure it in 3 axis
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    ke70dave, good writeup, get some PS arms, feel weird first few times you drive but then it all makes sense, feels like a proper sports car with the quick steering. One of the best mods you can do to a corolla in my opinion!
    RT142 Estate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Konakid View Post
    ke70dave, good writeup, get some PS arms, feel weird first few times you drive but then it all makes sense, feels like a proper sports car with the quick steering. One of the best mods you can do to a corolla in my opinion!


    sam: not realy sure what you mean by that, but my analysis was quite crude, as it only analysed when the wheels were pointed straight ahead, so i only needed to measure the pivot points relative to each other, and then relative to the ground.

    What I mean is did you only work it out on the basis of the difference in rack length?
    Last edited by Sam-Q; 24th August 2010 at 08:31 PM.
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    Bumping an old thread here. Issues with S13 gear aside, is there any difference between using S13 struts and coilovers?(as far as fitting them goes). Will I need to use AE86 camber tops, or can I use the stock KE70 hat to bolt them up?

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    Stock S13 struts tend to be too low. You want (maybe even need) coilovers with base height adjustment so you can wind them up to a reasonable height. Mine are as high as they can possibly go and the car is by no means riding high.

    As for strut tops, use whatever matches your car. You will need to do some slight mods to fit anything Toyota on top of the coilovers anyway.

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    not to mention s13 struts will hit and jam up on the inside of your strut tower.
    i barely ran s13 agx struts in my corona, dont even ask me how.

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