Grip...who is into it?

[Sprinterboy]

It's not just spring, Its shock settings, Camber, Sway bars. My current package was Shoit when I first put it in, now it's completely different after some R&D.

What i've found as far as setups go for any car. is it's to suit you and your driving style. I've had the chance to drive many different cars on track and also a couple of different 86's with different setups. I still prefer mine over some of the others. But thats my choice and how I like to drive it.

[sr_rolla]

just my 2 cents, as a car club try bathurst light car club, they have a fair few events at mt panorama (and wakefield i believe) and it costs $50 a year to join

[driftke70]

fuck there is some jibber jabber in here

when your driving the hills do you have a stop watch going?
probably not, then who gives a fuck, if your having fun thats all that matters.

people say drift gets a bad name from stuff like nfs or what ever, there has always been stuff like that in every motorsport, cause you some guy with a civic with a heathcote dragway sticker and a cannon does that make drag racing lame, its easier to make drifting look better on a photo, cause it does and is, not saying grip sucks, grip is awesome, but driving around a car that doesnt have enough power to make you clench your anus around qr is somewhat of a drag. But that car could be slid to a certain extent which would be more fun.

Its stupid catagorising stuff, every track people go to is different, the places people drive is different, everyones cars are different, and the joys people get out of driving is different.

as for 8 and 6 kg springs, its relative to your shocks and tyres, and i think 8 and 6 is fine for grip. If i was going all out grip i might be inclined to make them a little stiffer.

sam q if you have to slow down mid corner because of oversteer, your doing it wrong.

[sr_rolla]

or u have an incorrect setup, which samq did at the time, maybe still does.

Thanks for adding some more "jibber jabber" as u call it. With the 8/6 kg spring debate which i have kinda tried staying out of till now, when did going stiffer equal better handling? 8/6 is to stiff for circuit/grip orientated driving, plain and simple. I'm not on my own with this, sharpeto racing have a fleet of 4 corollas, 2 KE55 shape 2 KE20, the stiffest springs they run at event the tightest circuits with lots of sharp directional change is 400lbs on the front. There are also a no. of race cars (AE86's) around the country that do circuit work, the hardest that they tend to run is also in the region of 400lbs front 200lbs rear for the tightest work. These are all class leading cars that are well developed and set quick times, they no what works. If 8/6 was the way to go they would be doing that but they arent, plain and simple.

Also on the subject of 8/6 spring rates, something i noticed was that for ages the common setup was 6/4, everybody ran this a while back, then some bright spark decided that he would use a 2nd hand set of S13 coilovers in the front of his *E7*/AE86 and thought, "i have springs right here, why buy a new set?" so he used what he had. Guess what spring rates are most common in aftermarket coilover setups from all manufacturers for S13's? 8/6, my theory is that coz these rate springs came with the coilover setups, they where getting used more frequently and because of this more and more ppl decided that that was the way to go. Because of this and the fact that a vast majority of forum members seem to be afraid to find out what rates work for them, everybody just goes with "what jono/beau/whoever on the forums is running" the whole issue seems to perpetuate into these common shit fights we all tend to have.

the spring rate debate, the S13 front end debate and the tyre/wheel fitment debate seem to all fall into this catagory.

This bullshit that goes on between ppl on this site where ppl shoot others down that run against the grain is a joke. This is an awesome site that is full of some knowledgable ppl and thats what has kept me here and contributing for the last 2-3yrs ive been here. But this crap that goes on will do nothing good for the site. People will leave and we'll end up with another boostlosing.com or ns.com but for sprinters.

End rant

[Sam-Q]

driftke70: I don't have a stop watch going when I drive through hills but I do get pissed off if I have to get off the throttle because the car is bouncing sideways due to too stiff a springs. To add to that this was when (and still do) run externally adjustable dampeners, which didn't help. The dampening rate is dependent on the spring rate, not the comfort level. If the compression rate on the dampener is softened up to make for a more comfortable ride then the car will have a "bouncy" effect which I think causes uneven and unpredictable weight distribution among other things and will fell like you have a worn out set of "shocks".

As for me "not doing it right", any loss of traction means a loss of speed, weather it will mean getting off the throttle, applying the brakes or not being able to accelerate as fast out of the corner. If the fastest way around a corner was to hang it out then the F1 guys would be doing it. I do still have a rear spring rate problem that is causing roll oversteer but regardless my point still stands.

[letsgohunting]

I'm sure for an all rounder drift/track fun car 8/6 is fine. I had 8/6kg setup in one of my ae86s and yes, I did find it to be too stiff in all circumstances. Right now in my s14 I have much softer springs - actually shitty king springs which are only about 3.5-4kg front and about 2-3kg rear and combined with koni dampers it actually feels really good to drive and drift. It will be too soft for circuit, but I think on my s14 around 6.5 front and 5 rear would be perfect.

I'm in the camp that prefers softer springs. You need to the car to lean, and you can adjust that with adj swaybars. The actual bump absorbing comes from the shock/spring combination, but provided you have a good damper, the spring should be only as stiff as it needs to be. The moment you go too stiff it becomes bouncy and takes away weight transfer characteristics. I've found very stiff cars can be very vague in terms of weight transfer characteristics. The front of a very stiff spring setup nearly always skips laterally across the road instead of leaning and therefore using the tyres.

What was interesting was when I had my laurel with JIC magic coilovers. The spring setup was 8kg front and 6kg rear. I was friends with a guy whose dad built suspension for high end racing cars at the time, and we had access to his shelf of eibach springs. After taking him for a drive through some good roads we both agreed the front was too stiff - wasn't allowing any lean in the corners. After measuring spring length and diameter their were only a few that would fit, and just for gags I decided to try the 5kg eibachs for the front. So 5kg front, 6kg rear. Result - Beautiful. Changed the feel of the car and made it completely neutral. I was able to drive quickly with safe slight understeer or switch and get tail loose just through weight transfer techniques. This is the way cars should be. I've noticed a lot of the drift guys have extremely high sprung cars and don't finesse the cars into a slide - they manhandle them into a slide. Instead of using handling characteristics to initiate or maintain a slide they will just handbrake or pop the clutch into a powerslide. I have a sneaking suspicion the reason for this is their very very stiff setups - just too stiff and unresponsive to subtle weight shift techniques so they rip the handbrake instead.

Note: This is just my opinion, and what works for me - I'm not saying anyone else is wrong.

[driftke70]

400 pounds is like 7.2 kg or something, really plucking at straws, an 8kg spring will be too stiff for a car thats not braced and has shitty tyres. end of story, as soon as you start going stiffer in the sway bars that rate can come down. I will be running 8 and 6 in my car, but i have a heavier 3sgte up the front. There are benifits to be had from going softer in a spring, but not that soft, you should start looking to get some sort of rigidity in your shell, and getting decent track and tyres. If you have a narrow track in the front end, it completely changes the leverage on the suspensions. Having a standard control arm with nrcas and 7kg springs, would almost be the same as rona arms, rcas and an 8kg spring. Not only does it change the load, but the rate of the load.

If f1 cars slid, they would wear out their tyres too fast. Any sport where wearing tyres isnt an issue, they slide, speedway, rally, including tarmac. A tyre makes its most grip about 3% past its grip threshold. Theres a difference between ripping an e break into a corner and balancing a car around a track. Even nascar get a bit skittish.

letsgohunting, your laurel was so soggy the interior light came on when you cornered hard, if it was properly braced, you could have gained from those springs.

Im all about softer springs for basic setups, but if you want to go all out, you kinda need em, i prefer softer springs and stiffer sway bars for drift, so the car still slides but has some sort of damp for hitting bumps mid slide to make it more controllable. But theres more involved.

[letsgohunting]

Aye she was loose as a hookers asscrack. Still, I'm not a fan of anything stiffer than 8 and 6 for a road car. That was sort of my point - I was saying it in my context - I like my cars to drive on the road daily AND do well on the track.

9kg is still too stiff for the front of a road car running road tyres - even good ones. Remember wills cefiro? It was only running 8kg front and 6kg rear springs with some insane stiffshit dampers. It was so stiff that his girlfriend had to hold her boobs when she rode in the passenger seat so they didn't get sore from bouncing. That car was WAY too stiff, and as a result was super super super hairy to drive even on really nice roads on the street.

Moreso, Learning to drive a car fast or drift using weight balance techniques means loading and unloading sides - front and back, left and right with the cars weight while cornering. Its the (obvious) principal of being able to ease the weight from one side to the other (side to side while strictly cornering + rear to front if braking) that requires a certain amount of lean to be able to "load up" the tyres as gently as possible as to ease them to their threshold. The harsher the transition is, the lower the tyres threshold grip is. This means by being a subtle/smooth driver the overall grip threshold of the car increases equaling more overall speed, even in drifting as opposed to the rough driver whose grip threshold is lower because he isn't loading up the tyres smoothly enough. The thing is, having too stiff springs or suspension in general can have the same effect as being a rough driver because it doesn't allow the lean that a tyre needs to be able to place the weight on one side or corner. Instead it keeps the weight more evenly distributed across all four tyres (which sounds good but isn't) - makes it skate-ish.

Im not saying soft is good, I'm saying that too stiff is bad. The thing is that it's much more common for people to go too stiff altogether. Most 9/7kg setups in s13/14/15 and some ae86 8/6 setups are that way. Out of two mediocre extremes of setups in a street car - slightly too stiff and slightly too soft, I would definitely pick the softer one every time because I can adjust my driving to suit it, nulling any big flaws in the setup. If the setup is too stiff however, especially in a car using street tyres - even bridge re001s/semi slicks etc, it doesn't allow the primary function of a good sport suspension in the first place - the ability to transfer weight firmly and communicatively from left to right, rear to back. Thus the driver isn't able to correct that flaw through their driving.

As far as suspension setups go, at the moment I don't go much past bushes, dampers, springs swaybars and some adjustable arms to correct alignment because my driving style is able to adapt to any minor flaws the setup may have and compensate for it.

[letsgohunting]

I have to add to that - How a person drives is car is much more important than specifics in a suspension setup. All thats needed at the street/track level is a good basic platform and if the persons driving skills are up to it he can do wonderful things with that, without having to spend massive amounts of money. IMO again.

[sr_rolla]

Driftke70, why is having extra front track a good thing? A *E7*/AE86 is blessed with a perfect width to length ratio (1/1.7) why make the care oversquare? this is one of the reasons why a AE/KE that has a wider track is more unstable at speeds than a stock track car.

The best way to set up a car according to the likes of fred puhn and carrol smith is to run the softest setup that you can for a given job or to start soft and work up to what you need. The basic idea is to get a set of known rate springs that are softer than you need, then gradually step up the rates until u reach a good ballance point. If you do it the other way round (to hard and work back) the car will be a pig until you get to the ballpark of what you want. Much like letsgohunting explained, you are generally able to feel and drive around faults at a lower spring rate, you cant do that if its to hard. Then once you have figured out a decent rate that you are happy with, you tune the setup with damper settings and sway bars to perfect the setup. You dont just run what everybody else runs, thats just stupid.

Also, NRCA's are f*#king stupid, the destroy the scrub radius and put the wrong kinda loads on the balljoint.

As a final point, when it really comes down to it, KE/AE's dont have any real major suspension flaws, the unequal four link, the front castor rods, and the scrub radius problems are the worst things wrong with them. They arent as flexible as people seem to thing (particularly *E7*'s), i have 350lb front springs and 200lb rears (a little to stiff but i have semis so i can use it) and no bracing whatsoever, i drive my car hard, as anybody that has been in my car can attest and i have never felt any flexing of real note. The front moves around a little but thats the worst part. These cars are stiff as hell compared to alot of late model stuff, my best mates GTiR comes to mind. It had coilovers a little stiffer than mine and shithouse tyres (u could see canvas for a while there) and it flexed so bad it wasnt funny, everytime you drove it hard the window and door seals would creak and on real rough roads the rear side window would hit there frames.

What im trying to say is that generally, most of the setup stuff done to these cars is crap, its all just a copy of what somebody else has done and knowone really thinks about what they are doing. You need some softness in the suspension, u need some plyability in the chassis and you dont need a stupid wide track otherwise things dont work properly and eventually things fracture and break. This is the main reason why i setup the Suspension Setup Thread on the old forum, WORK SHIT OUT FOR YOURSELVES!! dont do things just coz i say or or anybody else says, do some research, maybe do a little maths and really work out what will work, experiment, stuff with different setting but dont just run what beau yates runs so u can say u have a sick sprinter drifter the same as beau.

End rant