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Thread: best money spent to give the 20v more ballls

  1. #41
    Veteran FAST EDDIE's Avatar
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    Thats getting a bit serious for a street car isnt it??
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    i would say try a pair of 288. with a thin gasket, youll have close to 11:1 cr anyway, so it shouldnt be to doughy.

    i personally wouldnt recommend doing anything else. just cams and a gasket. will give you a good impression of whether it is really what you want, and which way you wanna go to get more out of it.

    if its a street car, the next logical step is 7a. there is nothing stopping you if youre not gonna race it, which is the only reason to stick with 1.6L capacity. more power at lower revs, negating the need for a very expensive bottom end, also negating the need for a close ratio box and really short diff ratio. saving you more money again.

    when i say lower revs, it will still be very comfortable over 7000, which in reality is really quite high.

    this will be my next A series motor. 7a bottom, 101 silver pistons and head, 288 cams.
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  3. #43
    Veteran ae86hachiroku's Avatar
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    sam-q



    We pretty much stopped the dyno at 8000rpm, and with characteristics of 304's, at around 8500-8800 it would most likely have produced a bit more.

    I've got a bit more to go, going for a retune this Thursday will hopefully get me 160hp+ at the wheels, playing around with cam timing, the previous setting was a bit too peaky and I believe it was only making it's best power at 8500rpm + which in drifting, is not particularly useful, you'd want the max to come on at around 7000ish to match the peak torque. And the setting before this I had it too low, and power came on way too early, and pretty much had no useable power uptop, which is contradicting the benefits of such a large duration camshaft.
    I think atm this is around 118kw at the wheels? And I definately could daily drive it in a more road worthy car. I have the limit set at 9000, gets there no problems but it's pointless anyway. It's more beneficial to keep the longevity of the engine. My last outing I was going for several laps in a row with no overheating problems anywhere, all the Nissans had to always go back in the pits

    Although power figures are what draws a crowd, I don't believe it's as important as the actual driving experience, you can have all the power you want, but if it doesn't respond then it's useless, sacrifice a bit of power for response (IT'S AN NA!!!) and reliability.

    I don't think a dry sump is quite necessary.
    Last edited by ae86hachiroku; 21st April 2009 at 04:54 PM.

  4. #44
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    As mentioned before, if you want it to go to 10,000rpm, that's what's needed, can't skimp on stuff, it's not a cheap task.

  5. #45
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    fast eddie: a 0.8mm trd gasket will go you to a theoretical 10.9:1 which isnt a bad place to be for 270 cams, anything bigger and I say shave the head a bit. I can work it out but I would need to know where you would want it to end up. Slydar has a good point with the 7A bottom end but its up to what you want out of an engine, I personally like the power being made high in the revs but I cant argue with the low down punch the 7A gives.


    cracker: I cant say I agree with your comments

    He asked for "drivable" and even though I am sure that some people are happy driving around the neighbourhood what a 304/288 combo I am sure many would not. But if its to actually use 10,000 then yes I agree.

    When lift goes over around 9.5mm or so (exact number open to debate) the side loading of the small buckets goes up expedentially. Also the head will need to be machined to clear the cam lobes.

    20thou? I worked it out and that tells me in modern day measurments its 0.5mm which is pretty serious. While there is nothing completely wrong about the suggestion its just that the compression ratio would be crazy with that and the 0.5mm gasket.

    I agree with your other comments but I think there is no power to be gained by going to blacktop throttles even with big cams.


    ae86hachiroku: I am impressed by the how linear the torque is for the said cams and also how wide the revs are where its making over 80% of the power. Must be a pretty nice engine to hoon around in. Your right its all about the big number for many people, thats why I said disregard the claimed power figure in my earlier post because apart from it not telling much dyno's vary heaps anyway. Sure many find my 101kw impressive and all but I bet I would get 80rwkw on another dyno.
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    So you say go a .5mm instead of shaving the head sam?

    I said earlier the 10k figure is obviously not realistic so thats out of the equation.

    THis isnt going to be a massive expensive rebuild i know 4ag na's are extreemly reliable and seeing over 100 kw's would make me happy and a nice power curve.

    Wheres these 272 toda's coming from??

    Oh and also i have been tossing up puting the t50 setup back in just because the ratios will be more driveable.

    ATM i have a w56 (i think) 2004 petrol hilux box (comercial ratios) wich you can realy tell are short and 5th gear was doing 3900 at 110kmph so dosent realy cruze well lol and hvae 4.1 diff.

    I was thinking the 20v would be a bit more smoother to drive with those revs at 110 but not sure what you guys think will have a quiet exhaust!
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  7. #47
    Veteran ae86hachiroku's Avatar
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    Yeah I think you'd be better off with the T50, lighter and it's not gonna break under a N/A 4AG. If the case is that you don't want 10k anymore, then yeah, stick some in and you'll be sweet, the blacktop already goes hard stock.

  8. #48
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    so the vvt wold work with a 7a bottom end, yeah? would it need to be retuned? also, how much of a power gain would u be looking at with a 7a bottom end/ would it be a power gain over the whole rev range?
    nice thread
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  9. #49
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    I really wish I had a straight answer for you on that. You have found an area that has puzzed me for some time. The pistons on any 20v thats unmodified are flush with the block at TDC- give or take. Now that means that the gasket thickness determines the piston to head clearence. I have been informed anything under 0.8mm is walking on thin ice. In theory running a 0.5mm gasket will cause a blown engine and yet people have done it many times. I have also been told that gaskets that thin can cause bad sealing but again I have yet to hear a report of it happening. If your going to fit 270 cams then just use a 0.8mm gasket. If your going to fit aftermarket rods and rev it to 9000 then I personally wouldnt fit a 0.5mm as a cautionary. Thats not to say its not a good thing, it just freaks me out. Just for your referance though:

    0.8mm gasket: 10.9:1
    0.5mm gasket: 11.4:1

    I also have no idea if you will have piston to valve contact in the event of a snapped valve but I highly doubt it. I know with a 0.8 it wont ever, how do I know? lets just say I had my cams stop spinning when the rest of my engine was at 8500RPM a while back.

    I also agree that by going back to a T50 you not only loss the static and recripicating rate, get back some decent gearing but you can also sell off your old parts really easy.

    On and get the head ported and matchported, both are shockers on the silvertop

    banzai_pots: would work well, in theory any mod that changes the amount of air going into an engine should have a retune
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    hi sam, this is marvin from DK.

    i found some information from garage annex (japan) on 20v camshafts comparison ( - translated below).

    what i find interesting is, when i compare 264/264/stock ECU (Step 1) and 272/272/tuned ECU (Step 2), the gain is less than 5 ps and 0.7 kg/m in torque. is it fair to say that 264/264 is a decent setup, if i don't want to go through the trouble of getting an aftermarket ECU?

    i am currently running a stock 20v blacktop w/ factory ECU. i wonder if adding the kelford 266/270 cams () would give similar results as Step 1.

    marvin

    ******************
    (garage annex page partially translated)

    the base engine is stock 20v blacktop; w/ original hi-rise header and muffler.
    - garage annex air filter: 166 ps @ 8020 rpm; 17.1 kg/m @ 5780 rpm
    - open stacks: 174.3 ps @ 7820 rpm; 18.3 kg/m @ 5480 rpm

    Step 1 w/ toda IN-264/EX-264 9mm lift
    - VVT pulley on intake, adjustable pulley on exhaust
    - TRD 0.8mm head gasket
    - adjustable fuel pressure regulator, factory ECU
    - stock bottom end, stock head
    - 187.8 ps @ 7910 rpm
    - 19.0 kg/m @ 6140 rpm

    Step 2 w/ toda IN-272/EX-272 9mm lift
    - complete overhaul
    - toda valve spring
    - toda 82 dia piston, AE101 conrods
    - VVT pulley on intake, adjustable pulley on exhaust
    - TRD 0.8mm head gasket
    - adjustable fuel pressure regulator, "original" ECU (garage annex spec)
    - ported and polished head
    - 192.5 ps @ 8170 rpm
    - 19.7 kg/m @ 6350 rpm

    Step 3 w/ toda IN-272/EX-272 9mm lift (no VVT)
    - same spec as Step 2, except toda adjustable pulley on intake
    - 201.2 ps @ 8160 rpm
    - 18.5 kg/m @ 6580 rpm

    Step 4 w/ toda IN-272/EX-288 9mm lift
    - same spec as Step 3, except cams and AE111 conrod
    - no dyno info

    Step 5 w/ toda IN-288/EX-304 9mm lift
    - same spec as Step 4, except cams
    - 196.1 ps / 16.5 kg/m (dyno'ed at the different place)

    Step 6 w/ toda IN-288/EX-304 9mm lift
    - same spec as Step 5, except for the following:
    - tomei forged crank full counter-balanced
    - jun super conrod
    - tomei main stud reinforcement
    - 213 ps @ 8680 rpm
    - 18.7 kg/m @ 7720 rpm
    Last edited by marvin; 7th May 2009 at 05:27 PM.

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