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Thread: ECU tuning: 16V 4AGE + ITBs

  1. #1
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    Default ECU tuning: 16V 4AGE + ITBs

    Hi there . . .


    I could really do with some informed commentary regarding ECU tuning - more specifically Ignition Map r-o-a-d tuning.


    ECU is an Adaptronic e420d into which I've been throwing my free time into for over a month now trying to arrive at an acceptable level of low-load / low RPM driveability - something that none of the workshops that Dyno'd the car previously managed to achieve .


    To cut a long story short; starting with a member's input a couple or so months ago I've now managed to get a moderate handle on Fuel Map tuning to the point where I had / have? the car behaving O-K*. . in most low / medium load-rpm conditions (and very good relative to its previous state of tune).


    However Tune still leaves a bit to be desired in regards to some low-load conditions and a general lack of low/mid-range torque & overall smoothness.


    Further to previous paragraph. . . I'd pretty much 90-95% reached this* stage 10 days ago with an MS Tune but the Tech Support guy @ Adaptronic who was helping me refine my idle requested I change to a VE tune advising that it was easier to tune, more planar & thus easier to spot irregularities in fuel supply. Well - I must be doing something wrong because my VE Map looks very similar to the MS version < both attached >. Whilst the car drives O-K. . ; it's not quite as smooth as it was under the MS tune.


    Aside from that I just seem to be chasing my tail getting the AFR's to a sufficiently tight tolerance < I get intermittent spikes & falls to 21.8 & 7.7 respectively >. I make the due corrections & Log my drive only to find that the Map's now gone very lean / very rich in other areas???


    I've also noticed that the Fuel Corrections are still set to Open Loop - Adaptronic have previously posted that a Street driven car should generally always be in closed Loop fuel corrections ?


    Anyway. . . . those niggles aside I feel I've sufficiently refined the Fuel Map to now attempt to refine the Ignition Curve - particularly given that some of the problem areas regarding above-mentioned AFR / AFR discrepancies seem to correspond to sharp inflections in the Ignition curve.


    Now that I have synchronized the engine's Base Timing < it was 8 deg advanced over indicated value > I'd welcome some advice in regards to the proper methods & procedures for road-tuning an Ignition Map.

    I'd also be interested in your comments regarding the shape of my Ignition Curve . In the Adaptronic article < > they reference a 4AGE in regards to tuning an N/A engine. Notwithstanding the fact the actual table values won't correlate between 20V & 16V due to the different head design & C.R. Etc - the ignition Map does seem a lot more linear than the Map set up by my previous tuners, which has significant areas of "plateau" where the timing does not change w.r.t to RPM or Load < i.e. T=25 BTDC from 4000-6500 rpm / TPS = 36-100% >.


    Further to the above I also came across this article < > in which a member < Jondee 86 > posted a picture of; " ... a nice ignition map that fits in with my personal opinion of what an ignition map should look like ". My Map bears as much resemblance to that Map as Origami does to a light bulb. . .


    I intended to go out this evening & experiment with the < low - medium load > ignition values to see if I could get any improvement but have decided to hold off for some feedback in case there are obvious faults with the Map and / or there is a particular procedure I need to follow.









    Cheers. . .
    Last edited by GeeEss; 21st November 2015 at 03:39 PM. Reason: Replace ECU photos

  2. #2
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    Have you had the ITB's balanced correctly? I've seen situations like this where you try to trim the fuel to have an adverse effect elsewhere in the map.
    Ae86 Drivingclub - Toyota AE86 Car Club where AE86 | KE70 | Toyota 86 / GT86 | Subaru BRZ | Scion FRS owners

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    Hi Matt; yeah they've checked out OK.

    Oh well; looks like I'll be going on some more bum-dyno drive-dates with my lap-top.

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    I would also post up on the adaptronic forums as andy spends a bit of time on there helping out tuners.

    I haven't been on there in a while but he used to usually get back to you within 24 hours

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    Thanks Matt,

    I will try & get Andy's input on this. . .

  6. #6
    Veteran LittleRedSpirit's Avatar
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    VE tuning is no good for itb motors, I tried it on the 20v and the itb equipped 2azfe and its just plain not good. it never ran smooth.

    Map x TPS is best.

    You can advance to 40 degrees btdc off throttle all the way down till you roll it back on the last few cells before Idle to your idle ignition value which would generally be around 10 to 12 degrees before TDC , then the timing will generally retard more as you roll down the map increasing load and keep it safe as load is added.

    As well as this the timing advance should increase as rpm increases. To me 26 degrees at 7000 rpm seems pretty retarded. From memory my 20v was at 33 degrees in that cell. As you ignite earlier you can potentially add more fuel. If you feel your timing is retarded and your rich you can advance then adjust fuel, as the advance may result in an afr leaning effect if the change is warranted.

    I do a lot of data logging, and I find the first and easiest area to refine is the the low load low rpm areas of the map where they motor is generally while being trafficked. Try to only adjust when you have stable state data for a second or two.

    Take away some of your compensations to simplify tuning. Zero out the air temp vs enrichment map, make sure the air temp vs ignition corrections are zeroed. Read the section of the manual about fuel trim and make sure you don't have outside factors beyond the tune making corrections and robbing you of absolute control while tuning.

    If you hunt at idle then you can increase the timing on the map cell below the one you idle at to a figure higher than the car idles at which will help keep the motor in the one cell at all times while idling.

    Are you using an idle controller? That can complicate the setup and you are best to disconnect it and get it idling in steady state without it (use a manual tap) and then incorporate it after as its hard to get right without a good quality of data in the map anyhow.






  7. #7
    Veteran LittleRedSpirit's Avatar
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    Also investigate if you are using transient throttle enrichment. You should turn this off while tuning as you get different data with it. Transient enrichment (TPS based or MAP prediction) can be a great way to stop motors with large throttle areas from leaning out upon wide throttle applications (yes just like an accelerator pump on an fcr etc). Generally there will be a lean moment which translates to a hesitation when you crack it open aggressively. Transient fills this gap by adding a measured spurt of fuel based upon different methods. TPS based just does sums based on your tune values, looking at where you are and where you're going and what the difference is. Then it applies a gain. From memory around 215% gain was good on the 20v. Then another parameter is about how long it lasts, how long it takes to decay to normal tuning.

    Map prediciton is great as will default to tps based once youre tabled values are no longer useful.






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    MAP V TPS? AFAIK the general consensus is that 1=unused, 2=TPS is best tuning format for ITBs.

    The Ignition figures you've referenced are for a 20V so we're not exactly comparing apples with apples here. . .

    Apart from having a significantly different head design + VVT; the 20V is a higher revving / higher compression motor so I'd wager it can support a fair bit more timing advance than the relatively rudimentary 16V Bigport.

    Definitely agree that low-load area needs looking at - a couple of niggles < below> aside - I as a novice tuner have now managed to effect a significantly better low RPM / Low Load tune than the accredited Tuners I previously took the car to. . . .

    Idle V MAT = 0 already but thanks for flagging the WT / MAT V Ignition correction as it may well have a bearing on the "Idle-droop" issue below.

    1. "Idle-droop".

    Whilst my idle is initially OK from Start-up to WT= 85C it doesn't maintain RPM after the radiator Fan cycles ON/OFF and drops by ~ 2-300 rpm to ~ 700rpm.; relevant settings shown in below image.





    Electrical Load 3 = Idle Up


    I tried increasing the Idle Effort at WT > 75 from 25 to 30 @ below image. I idled the car stationary for 25-30 minutes & this seemed to work OK < aside from a disconcertingly audible 4-clicks whenever the fans cut in; which only happened when I increased Idle Effort - there was only 1 audible click @ WT=25) . When I actually took the car for a drive however, the idle speed again dropped to a ragged & uneven 700 rpm.





    Having said that; I hadn't even considered the ignition corrections you mentioned < see below >. Do you think they may have something to do with this?







    2. Throttle-Off / Over-run Jerkiness


    1. Getting pronounced jerkiness around the 1500 rpm area when I come off then back on throttle. Tried playing around with Lower / Higher RPM ( increased from 1800 to 2500) & Time Delay ( increased to 500ms) values in Power Cut mode and Dashpot Extra Effort ( increased from 0 to 2 ) but didn't achieve anything.

    This seems to be a very common issue judging by the Sites I Googled but nothing of consequence was learned - a lot of these guys had no more idea than I did & just seemed to be throwing numbers at WARI hoping something would work. Relevant settings shown below.


  9. #9
    Veteran LittleRedSpirit's Avatar
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    What should I do with all this? Just zero all the trim values, you really have way too much ignition trim vs air and water temps as you really need almost none. Water temp vs fuel trim is more sensible to begin with. Have it enrich cold and fade to zero by operation temp. Your car must idle bad cold as it would be right around tdc.






  10. #10
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    Map vs tps gives you the ability to meter low load conditions better and your e420d has an internal map sensor which you should simply connect and use in map vs tps mode. No wiring, just a rubber hose and software. Read the manual and understand it. It explains it well.






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