WTF is my tie rod hitting my wheel?

[NIZLAH]

Ok here is the scenario.......

Car - 86

Problem - So Ive just bolted all the front suspension back in the car after having it off the road for quite some time.

In this time a few things have changed.... I'm using xt130 strut converted coilovers with MA61 disc's and calipers.
I have installed a quaife quick rack and xt130 LCA's.... the rest remains unchanged, so AE86 steering arms (manual), rack ends / tie end rods and stock caster arms.....

Now....

I chucked my wheels on (15 x 8 :0 off-set) and found out that the passenger side tierod is touching the inner lip of the rim.
(found this out after trying to push the car and it didn't want to move to well)

The drivers side is fine, has just enough clearance, so I'm ducking confused to what is going on here.

any suggestions.... ?

cheers
Niz

[Konakid]

Have you had it aligned?

If so, add 5mm spacer. Easy.

[NIZLAH]

nope not yet, I know its completely out of wack but its still weird, like its almost as if the steering arm is too long or something..... I want to avoid spacers for the moment and its just weird that it only hits on one side and not the other.................?

[Konakid]

Rims bent?

Steering arms bent?

Stub axle bent?

[NIZLAH]

I'm pretty certain nothing is bent as it was all in use before and has just been sitting in the garage while not in the car.....

[ROLL3R]

Sounds silly but its not hitting on the balance weights on the inner edge of the rims? i had this issue and ended up using stick on weights inside the rim insted. I also took the grinder to the end of the tierod end to flatten it out a little bit so it wasnt as round, thus giving me 3mm clearance opposed to 1mm. Though that all went out the window after i bolted some AJPS 40mm RCA's in, had to use 20mm bolt on spacers as my tyre bulges over my rim and thus hitting the steering arm.

[FAST EDDIE]

either something is bent or different, eg steering knuckles, hub length-design, stub axle length, rim width offsett, its all fixed together so a wheel alignment wont help the problem.

[Hokey]

offset on the ma61 or corona hubs is obviously different to the 86 hubs. with my old ke runnign rona struts sig lcas and ps arms i had to grind down the lca so it didn't hit the disc

[FAST EDDIE]

only thing is that he said it clears one side and doesnt the other so im sure he would eb using the same items sid to side

[NIZLAH]

Nope it's not hitting the balance weights, definitely the rim (but that's something else I will have to make sure of now also)

Eddie - I think your floating on the right idea as it would be happening on the other side if everything is equal
The only thing I can think of is if Pedders fucked up when they did the ball joints and bushings in my rona arms as I asked them to swap the steering knuckles over to the ae86 ones that took in with me.
The Rona arms are a little longer, but they should still fit anyway I would think?
I did a rough measurement though and they same to be the same length either side...

Oh that's the only other thing that I forgot to include is that I'm running 45mm RCA's also, if makes any difference?

Anyone know how long a standard ae86 manual steering knuckle is?

Nothing seems to be or looks bent, kinda hard to tell sometimes though but it was all sweet previously with the old struts in the car...

[RobertoX]

Hey, a wheel alignment will help, if your toe is messed up then it can make the rim touch the tierod.
So if your left toe is toeing out too much then the rim will get closer to the tie rod.

On the left and right sides measure the tierod length and see if they are roughly the same. If the left one is much shorter then this may be the problem.

Also a 45mm rca is pretty big, by removing it you will move the steering arm up within the wheel and will get more clearance.

I would highly recommend testing it all with out the spring installed, put it at full lock and then at full bump to check that you have clearance for full travel. The last thing you want is to hit a pot hole going around a corner, bend a tierod and put your car into a gutter!

[NIZLAH]

yeah I was fucking around with it before winding the tie rod back and fourth on the rack end, didn't move the tie rod off the wheel, just pulled the whole wheel/hub assembly more out of wack....... Or was I doing something wrong?

[ROLL3R]

does a AJPS lock spacer effect the length? as most poeple only use one on one side???? is this a possibility?

[NIZLAH]

Beats me I'm not using any lock spacers so cant comment on it.

[RobertoX]

Does the quaife rack give any extra travel?

[NIZLAH]

Hey, a wheel alignment will help, if your toe is messed up then it can make the rim touch the tierod.
So if your left toe is toeing out too much then the rim will get closer to the tie rod.

On the left and right sides measure the tierod length and see if they are roughly the same. If the left one is much shorter then this may be the problem.

Also a 45mm rca is pretty big, by removing it you will move the steering arm up within the wheel and will get more clearance.

I would highly recommend testing it all with out the spring installed, put it at full lock and then at full bump to check that you have clearance for full travel. The last thing you want is to hit a pot hole going around a corner, bend a tierod and put your car into a gutter!


Yeah I realise the RCA's are pretty big, but Dimitri used them on his last car with xt130 struts, and even wider rims....
(Maybe he knows something that could help? hopefully you read this thread soon D:pinchme:)

I would rather run some 15mm bolt on spacers (kind of planning to anyhow) but not just yet, rather than swapping to a slimmer RCA. But i still need to know what is making it hit just on the one side...

Not sure what you trying to say about the clearance as it all moves in unison with the hub doesn't it? so if it clears sitting static on the ground its going to clear at any other point in the suspension travel is it not?

It will be getting a professional alignment so I'm sure who even does it will point out any thing that looks a little doge... but I just need to move the car around so I can drop the engine in the bay and get that sorted before it goes for alignments and what not.

[NIZLAH]

no Quaife rack is the same travel as standard rack.

[ROLL3R]

Just use 3mm slip on spacers in the meanwhile then. Or if your just rolling it around wack some decent washers over the studs before you bolt the wheel on.

[stuartgze]

is the rack centered. count the turns from lock to lock, then half it and see if the wheels point straight.

[NIZLAH]

Yeah still have to center the rack properly, just did it roughly....
I'm going to go try a few more things, keep the suggestions/ideas coming...

appreciate the help so far....

[FAST EDDIE]

Yeah I realise the RCA's are pretty big, but Dimitri used them on his last car with xt130 struts, and even wider rims....
(Maybe he knows something that could help? hopefully you read this thread soon D:pinchme:)

I would rather run some 15mm bolt on spacers (kind of planning to anyhow) but not just yet, rather than swapping to a slimmer RCA. But i still need to know what is making it hit just on the one side...

Not sure what you trying to say about the clearance as it all moves in unison with the hub doesn't it? so if it clears sitting static on the ground its going to clear at any other point in the suspension travel is it not?

It will be getting a professional alignment so I'm sure who even does it will point out any thing that looks a little doge... but I just need to move the car around so I can drop the engine in the bay and get that sorted before it goes for alignments and what not.

the position of the rack wheel alignment and all that will have no effect on how close the rim sits to the tie rod, the wheel is bolted solid to the hub, the hub to the stub axle, the stub axle to the knuckle the knuckle to the tie rod all solidly bolted together either something is bent in that part or different.

maybe have a measure man and the next person to say get a wheel alignment needs a face slap

see if u can measure from the back of the strut to the fron of the hub on both sides to make sure its all the same length and the knuckle side to side, then id be checking offsett and width of rim and same heights of rcas

[RobertoX]

Sorry Eddie but you are wrong mate.
Just imagine it this way, If you have the wheel at full lock and then wind the tie rod in a little (ie put the toe out of whack, more toe out on one side) then the rim will get closer to the tie rod.

[NIZLAH]

Nope the tie rod does not move as its connected to the steering knuckle which is in turn connected to the hub..... so adjusting the tie rod length will just move the whole assembly...

I just centered the rack and did a few measurements and I'm getting the feeling that something is slightly bent.....

Everything is equal, Rims are identical either side, as is the LCA, RCA, tie rods, rack ends and steering knuckles.

or

when the stub axles were welded to the struts when doing the coil over conversion they were slightly out of line?

[ROLL3R]

is the camber the same on the left and right? Wouldnt this effect the angle of the steering arm which hypothetically will slightly up-turn the tierod end towards the rim?

[NIZLAH]

hmm Ive just got it set at full neg on the camber plates....

As I said its basically all fresh and just bolted in (alignment is wack no doubt), but still should fit up no probs so I'm getting frustrated.

[RobertoX]

Of course measure stuff to see if its bent or not but your toe setting will affect whether your wheel will touch the tierod.

Ideally your wheel shouldn't touch anything for all possible ranges of adjustment of everything in your suspension but that is a different issue.

Seriously do a rought alignment by eye and see if you have the same problem, its not that difficult ;)

[NIZLAH]

Rough alignment has been done...... no matter where I adjust anything the tie rod still hits the rim...

[RobertoX]

even if it is extended to full length? If so then you have ruled out wheel alignment and you should start measuring stuff.
That is not such a good result unfortunately, sounds like something may actually be bent then.

Have you double checked that you have all of the same components left to right?

What struts are you using?　Usually when using ma61 brakes you will be able to runner a more +ve offset on the rim (as the hub sits out a bit further). So your rim choice should fit (15x8"+0) I've run similar and had no problems with the larger stub axle struts and ma61 stopping gear.

by the way how much difference are we talking left to right? On the RHS your wheel clears the tierod, by how much? And how much travel is left in the rack on the LHS after the wheel has touched the tierod?

[takai]

How is it hitting the rim? Is it hitting at full lock, or is it hitting stationary?

Oh yeah, pretty dumb thing, but check that you have the tierods bolted to the steering arm on the bottom on both sides. Seen that cause some issues.

Pics would be great too.

[NIZLAH]

Yeah even when extended to full length...

I'm 100% that everything is the same on both sides..

I'm using xt130 stubs on a set of BC coil over struts, the stubs were cut off the original struts around 50mm from the bottom and then slid inside the new struts and welded at the bottom by Dimitri... (still waiting to see if he knows anything as its half of his old set-up that he was running)

It only clears by 2-3mm on the drivers side, and just sits against the back of the rim on the passenger side enough to stop it turning, (I can bolt the wheel to the hub)

The tie rod touches the wheel throughout the whole travel of the rack, as its all fixed to the hub essentially.

Its difficult to measure the components 100% accurately when the difference is so small (as its only a difference of a mm or 2 off) which is hard to gauge with a tape measure on not so flat/straight items)

[NIZLAH]

tie rods are bolted on the right way....

Will try and get some pics tomorrow if I have a chance..

[takai]

Given that the tierod ends are hard bolted to the steering arm, and that the steering arm is hard bolted to the stub axle i dont think the LCAs, RCAs, camber, strut angle, or struts as a whole will have a damned thing to do with it.

My mind is on the few things which have, or can have play in the system. Number one comes to mind is the hub itself, and whether the bearings are rooted on the stub axle, and so you are getting some slop and its hitting.
Second is that the stub axle itself is bent in relation to the base (not to the strut) and where the base is bolted to the stubaxle is different from side to side. Now the AE86 stubaxles arnt that strong (despite what you may think), and its concievable to bend one (i have on a ripple strip). Much less likely with the XT130/Celica struts, and even less so with the MX73/Cresida struts.
Third is that there is more slop in one tierod end than the other, and hence thats allowing it to foul.
Finally, that one steering arm is bent related to the other, another not unconcievable one. Ive bent a steering arm in my old Celica by nudging a kerb.

[RobertoX]

Hey Chris, hows it going?! :)
If you take out the RCA you will move the steering arm up inside the wheel so I reckon it does come into it. If you take it out you will gain some clearance.


The tie rod touches the wheel throughout the whole travel of the rack, as its all fixed to the hub essentially.
The whole travel? Basically this is just fucked then! What part is touching? the ball joint portion touching the inside of the rim? or the tube between the two ball joints touching the lip of the rim?


Second is that the stub axle itself is bent in relation to the base (not to the strut) and where the base is bolted to the stubaxle is different from side to side. Now the AE86 stubaxles arnt that strong (despite what you may think), and its concievable to bend one (i have on a ripple strip). Much less likely with the XT130/Celica struts, and even less so with the MX73/Cresida struts.


It is also extremely concievable that the stub axles have been welded on at a different angle! Looking at the strut from side view, if the stub axle is inclined towards the back a bit this would cause serious issues.



It only clears by 2-3mm on the drivers side, and just sits against the back of the rim on the passenger side enough to stop it turning, (I can bolt the wheel to the hub)

2-3mm?! what happens at full bump and full lock (RH lock)? You need to make sure that nothing is clashing for all suspension/ steering movement, not just moving it around your garage.

[NIZLAH]

Given that the tierod ends are hard bolted to the steering arm, and that the steering arm is hard bolted to the stub axle i dont think the LCAs, RCAs, camber, strut angle, or struts as a whole will have a damned thing to do with it.

My mind is on the few things which have, or can have play in the system. Number one comes to mind is the hub itself, and whether the bearings are rooted on the stub axle, and so you are getting some slop and its hitting.
Second is that the stub axle itself is bent in relation to the base (not to the strut) and where the base is bolted to the stubaxle is different from side to side. Now the AE86 stubaxles arnt that strong (despite what you may think), and its concievable to bend one (i have on a ripple strip). Much less likely with the XT130/Celica struts, and even less so with the MX73/Cresida struts.
Third is that there is more slop in one tierod end than the other, and hence thats allowing it to foul.
Finally, that one steering arm is bent related to the other, another not unconcievable one. Ive bent a steering arm in my old Celica by nudging a kerb.

Bearings are brand new, just replaced them the other day.. so no play there, nothing else seems to be loose or sloppy (lol) so I'm definitely thinking something is slightly bent or the stubs weren't welded on 100% straight.....

I will take photos 2morow so you guys can get a better idea of whats happening.... its getting late and I'm tired, doing my head in over it right now....

[driftke70]

rca too big with a combination of your front end being a little skew

[todd]

your all idiots. its the flux capicitator. needs a rebuild by the sound of it.

[NIZLAH]

rca too big with a combination of your front end being a little skew

Yeah but isn't it the idea of them to keep the LCA as close to parallel with the ground? Which they are doing quite well at the height I have it set at, changing them to smaller ones would upset this me thinks...

flux capacitor is a brand new genuine Toyota item also, should be working fine...

[takai]

I dont think its the welding, unless the heat from welding has warped the stub (unlikely, its a reasonable bit of cast steel).
Upon thinking about it some more during "daylight" (because lets face it, Adelaide today is barely daylight) hours it could quite concievably be the RCA pushing the tierod down into the wheel, although if they are the same RCAs then you would think it would be happening on both sides.

Pics really requires here.

[FAST EDDIE]

im thinking wheel offsett or bent knuckle, does the knuckle bolt to the top of the rca or the bottom? im guessing the knuckle stull stays underneath the strut then the rca under the knuckle if so rca wont be affecting anything??

Robertox yes if the alignment was seriously incorrect at full lock it would hit further down the tie rod end but in my head the scenario had the wheel straight as he was trying to push the car.... ill take that one!!

[NIZLAH]

Ok pics for comparison and to show what is happening.. first is the problem side and 2nd is the one that clears obviously...

The RCA is on top of the steering knuckle..... this is how it is meant to go right? always see them fitted this way in other set ups and not sure if it would work the other way with the knuckle on top of it....

[Matt-AE86]

Borrow 40mm RCA's from someone, see if this helps it. It does seem VERY strange though... something is not right.. Measure the Steering knuckles and make sure 1 is not longer than the other ?

Maybe like you said before, they fucked up with changing the steering knuckles or some shit.

[sundee]

Try the following:
measure your RCA's to make sure they are the same, obviously if one is shorter and it is on the side u have the problem with then that's your issue.
Their are only 2 other issues I can see:
1 your steering knuckle is bent
2 it can't be that your stubb is welded up wrong because that would just muck up your toe on one side , it would effectivly more the whole system on one side and not a component.

Steering knuckle bent .. Has to be

[ROLL3R]

is it possible you have 2 steering arms/knuckles which are the same eg 2 lefts or 2 rights, as they do slightly curve to one direction.

[NIZLAH]

Yeah it has to be something like the knuckle bent, only slightly though as to throw it off just that bit with out being visibly bent....

If this is the case, (for the time being until I source a non bent knuckle)
Will it really be an issue?
Keep in mind that I'm going to run some 15mm spacers, the alignment will be able to be fixed around it correct?

I guess it must of been bent before when I used to drive around with no noticeable adverse effects...

[blair]

oh wow.

[todd]

if your steering knuckles are bent, you will never have a straight steering alignment.

[takai]

Yeah, i reckon either one of the knuckles/steering arms are bent or you have two of the same side.

[driftke70]

knuckle should be visually bent if it is.

my question is why is pedders doing the work?

eliminate one variable!

[sundee]

sorry when i wrote above it was from my phone.. but now im home i can see your pics.

ok so we need to narrow this down -

one component in the front end on the particular side in question is a bit sque - if ( aka bent
ok - the sepration from the tie rod/steering knuckle joint and the wheel is dependant on 1. the physical design and shape of the steering knuckle itself.
2. wheel width and offset.
3. everything else shouldnt matter because its all relative.
nothing else should effect that clearance.

So - one side of your car is fine. the other is not.
* your running the same wheel specs on the other side and u are sweet their - that rules out the wheel.

* that leave the steering knuckle - it has to be bent

if u want new ones dont pay $250 for OEM ones - grab some gear with me and some of the other fellas on here.

buy these:
http://www.technotoytuning.com/productdetail.php?p=789

thats old design - new ones are plated and have 2 provisions for mounting up the tie rod, adjustable for more lock and ratio - they are same lenght as PS arms.
PM if interested

[NIZLAH]

Yeah pretty certain they are matched either side (ie: one LH & one RH knuckle), and they don't look bent.. but fucks me whats going on...

Pedders were used only to fit new ball joints and bushes in my xt130 LCA's......

hmm the mystery remains.......... I got my car rolling with the aid of some washers so that's the main thing for now... will get it sussed properly when I take it for an alignment.

Cheers everyone.

[sundee]

Yeah, i reckon either one of the knuckles/steering arms are bent or you have two of the same side.

u cant have 2 of the same side fitted - u would have to be an absolute nob to fit EG. two left hand side knuckles ...:S


knuckle should be visually bent if it is.

my question is why is pedders doing the work?

eliminate one variable!


Yep id pay that.. get your car out of their!!!

[takai]

You can have two of the same side fitted. You can also fit them backwards (i.e. right to left and left to right) ive seen both done by people who didnt know better.

[sundee]

You can have two of the same side fitted. You can also fit them backwards (i.e. right to left and left to right) ive seen both done by people who didnt know better.


u make me sick takai!! :worried:

hehe

[driftke70]

would fitting right on left and left on right actually cause any problems other than positive camber.

could be an option to help with clearance.

[NIZLAH]

even if that was the case, you would expect the same problem to occur on either side......

[takai]

u make me sick takai!! :worried:

hehe

Ive worked at a few racing workshops in my time, its amazing what sort of basketcases drive through the doors.

One customer had a R32 GTR race car FOB come in where the flywheel was refusing to disengage and the clutch was "weird". Engine was held to the bellhousing by 2 bolts and they were only tight because there was a 5mm gap between the engine and bellhousing.

I think that was the best one.

And no, swapping left to right only causes alignment and clearance issues, i wouldnt expect fouling on only one side. Im betting that the fouling side is bent.

[NIZLAH]

yeah but the suggestion I'm getting is that maybe I have the wrong side or 2 of the same sides which is causing the issue......

which is defiantly not the case as they are the same either side right on right and left on left side....

[sundee]

I'll take referance pics for u this arvo Niz, might give u something to go off

[NIZLAH]

I'll take referance pics for u this arvo Niz, might give u something to go off

cheers dude....

[steroidchickens]

looks like your struts are wrong side. brake caliper should be at the front of the stub axle.

[NIZLAH]

nope that's the way xt130 struts mount apparently, I rang Dimitri when I was installing them asking the same thing lol..... felt kinda stupid but it doesn't hurt to double check lol.

[steroidchickens]

nope that's the way xt130 struts mount apparently, I rang Dimitri when I was installing them asking the same thing lol..... felt kinda stupid but it doesn't hurt to double check lol.

pfft what am i talking about haha.
indeed the caliper is at the rear.
i am putting my bits together tomorrow hopefully. will be running the same setup.
will let you know how i go.

[RobertoX]

That's pretty messed up!
Forget what I said about alignment, I thought you meant the tie rod tube touching the lip of the rim rather than the ball joint part touching the inside. In that case the toe alignment would have made a difference but not now, so sorry eddie you were right.

It could be that the angle of the stub axle is wrong, looking in side view it could be tilted back slightly. When you take the knuckles off sit the struts on something flat (on the bottom mounting face of the strut) and compare the angle. See if one tilts back slightly.
If this is the case you may be able to swap the struts left to right to move the car around, of course get it fixed though.

But very likely something bent too.

[sundee]

That's pretty messed up!
Forget what I said about alignment, I thought you meant the tie rod tube touching the lip of the rim rather than the ball joint part touching the inside. In that case the toe alignment would have made a difference but not now, so sorry eddie you were right.

It could be that the angle of the stub axle is wrong, looking in side view it could be tilted back slightly. When you take the knuckles off sit the struts on something flat (on the bottom mounting face of the strut) and compare the angle. See if one tilts back slightly.
If this is the case you may be able to swap the struts left to right to move the car around, of course get it fixed though.

But very likely something bent too.

It cant be that - if the stub was bent, and or tilted back like u say, the gap clearance between the tie rod ball joint and the wheel would decrease - yes
BUT, then your rotors and calipers would be mis aligned, the hub wouldnt sit properly,

but by all means take them out and do what RobertoX said, but u would think dimitri would have noticed when welding them up

[NIZLAH]

Yeah when I cbf I'll take them out again and sus everything out properly...
For now its rolling and I can concentrate on the engine side of things...
------
I have faith in D's skills, he seems to know what he is doing when it comes to these type of things...

[RobertoX]

actually, LOL yeah the angle that they are welded on wouldn't make a difference either... Probably not that, my diagnostic skills fail...

[sundee]

^ haha your forgiven - im sure there are better days ahead :P

[ROLL3R]

Are the front rotors the same? Or are they different brands? There might be a slight difference in thickness where they bolt to the hub thus causing your wheels to have a different offset to the strut. I only say this because working in the spare parts industry i've seen some weird and wacky stuff before. Its a long shot, Though it could cause an issue.

[sundee]

Are the front rotors the same? Or are they different brands? There might be a slight difference in thickness where they bolt to the hub thus causing your wheels to have a different offset to the strut. I only say this because working in the spare parts industry i've seen some weird and wacky stuff before. Its a long shot, Though it could cause an issue.


that wouldnt make a difference either, if they were different brand the thickness of the mounting face would still be similar specs, the thinkness of the mounting face of the rotor will affect that clearence, but when the thinkness of the mounting face is around 8mm, for that tollerance to have an effect on the clearance between the wheel and outer tie rod ball joint u would need to loose atleast 8mm from the rotor mounting face.. wouldnt work your rotor mounting face would be paper thin.

the thickness of the rotor itself also wont affect it.. the caliper will just move to aquire the difference. has no affect on track/offset

[takai]

Besides, on the sumitomo setup the discs run UNDER the hubs, hence there wont be a change in the mounting face for the wheel

[driftke70]

just run more camber,
fixes everything

[NIZLAH]

my camber is on max neg lol.......... cant run anymore, nor do I want to run as much as its on now..

[steroidchickens]

just did the conversion. mine clears by a mile.
thats with power steering arms. being shorter they sit well away from the wheel.
camber wont fix the wheel hitting on the tierod, as you adjust the camber the steering arm/wheel will move with it.

maybe you need powersteering arms.
seems odd that one side hits and the other doesnt.

[blinded]

I used to have XT130 struts, steering arms and LCA's in my car and had no problems with tie rods hitting the wheels. And, they were 13" wheels too. Currently have the same struts with standard LCAs and Power steering arms and with 15" rims, yet have no fouling issues at all.

Also, the XT130 steering arms are LONGER than manual AE86 ones, so you should have more clearance than what I had. (Which was still HEAPS).