THE SR20 vs 4AGE ARGUMENT/discusion FOR THE LOVERS AND HATERS

[FAST EDDIE]

Well after this topic was bought up recently i thought it would be a better place to put it in here.

So after hearing i have no idea sayin 4ages will run on junk oil (which we have all proved they will) and SR20's need good quality oil or they will decemate bearings and so forth i feel fair pissed.

I have run 3 4age's in turbo form and blown the shit out of them and am now running sr20s in my drift cars with brilliant sucess i think its fair to say that i have proven the quality of sr20 engines vs 4age's. These are in limiter bashing situations continuosly.

On the other hand i have had a 4agte in my street car dumping out a measly 130kw that would run all day every day which i ahve sold and am now changing for a 20v, so i do have a little respect for 4a's but not in comparison for bang for buck SR20det's.

Let the hating begin!

[Frak]

I like both but think they should stay in a chassis by the same manufacturer....just me!

[DRFTR86]

well i dont have an sr20, but i have a ca18det, and did have a worked n/a 4age, when the boost bug hit me, i didnt see any point in having a turbo 1.6 when (although nissan) a turbo 1.8 and a turbo 2.0 were available, and are only about 1 hours work extra to shoe horn in.

there are plenty of aftermarket parts available for both nissans and toyotas, but when at a track day, you would say about 98% of cars are nissans, and lets be honest, the perform very well.

treat any engine shit and it will blow up on you, alot of people will say sr20s spin bearings as eddie mentioned, but it can happen to a 4age, beau spun his bearings in the 4agte, and now hes running a sr20

although i have ca18det, ive seen the light, turbo nissans for the win, i can safely say i will never go back to a 4age, unless someone shouts me a hasslegreen 20v

i daily a turbo nissan and it has never given me troubles.

+1 for nissan

[lolwat]

they are both the best 4 bangers ever made they are both fucking awesome, what more is there to argue about

tbh if i could lift my bonnet(not that i own one yet:() and see RB26, onyl if i had the time and money and OOyea A CAR!)

[blinded]

The way I see it is this:


4ag[t/z]e for easy fitting.

Sr20 for easy power.



If you have the time, fabrication skills, and money to do an SR conversion, it is IMO the way to go.

But, for those of us who can't do said conversion due to lack of skills, time or generally money, a 4A would be the easiest way.



I guess it also depends on how serious your driving is. For you Eddy, the SR makes sense due to the fact you do actually drive your car at its limits all the time. But for people who are not at that level, a basic 4agte setup would possibly be the best route.




But yeah, it is very much each to their own. :)



Edit: For me, I'd rather lift my bonnet to see a 4agte, but hell I would still settle with either Nissan engine.

[Chaos Theory]

So after hearing i have no idea sayin 4ages will run on junk oil (which we have all proved they will) and SR20's need good quality oil or they will decemate bearings and so forth i feel fair pissed.


lol think you are referring to me, and i called you retarded for calling toyota engines junk. not your comment about oils or sr20s.

EDIT: I do love your car, and you drive it well.

however i think the fact that a 4age will run on crap oil is a testament to its quality.

[10000rpm]

After having spent too much money and time building a tough N/A 4age, I admit my money could have been better spent on a turbo motor...BUT...

Anyone who has experienced the sound and power deliverery/response of a worked 4age will admit there is no substitute...

Now I have grown up my next project is a GZ10 soarer with 1jz, all parts are in the shed....just need to find the time..., cheap power in a shell with the wheelbase to handle it...

Nissans are not my cup of tea, too easy and sound horrible...:worried:

[ke_70]

sr20 > 4age
the way i see it is sr's are build to handle ~150kw and are designed to run a turbo
4a's are build to handle ~90kw and designed to run na
+ sr's are newer (i think)

and to make a 4age as tuff as an sr it has to be fairly modified
therefore resulting in more engine stress

i base non of this on fact lol just what seems logical to me

[70XIN]

I have way more faith in a 4AGTE than an SR .. and i bought a '99 S15

SR can make power awesomely easily though, so that's a plus. I guess they're still very reliable motors *as long as they have been well maintained and tuned for the duration of their life*



And fast eddie, i think you just had very poor luck with your 4A's. Either your tuner or your engine builder needs a clue.

[rthy]

4age is awesome if u want to keep it "stock" looking

[lolwat]

ooyea, how come no one runs Fj20's they used to be off the HOOK and cheap as chips(bro inlaw- 200b 400HP fj20 :O MAD SKIDS AYE!)

[Brendo]

3sGTE owns both

but yeah it depends if your going for sweet sound or sweet power lol

[ke_70]

beams ftw!!!!!!111!!!!1
easy to convert to

[ae71]

id have to say that a sr makes more sense to me then a 4agte.

and more sense then a 3sgte

[DRFTR86]

i thought about going down the 3sgte route, but why skimp on a sr20 when it is set up for rwd to begin with.

dont get me wrong, i love toyotas and respect those who choose to stay original and keep it toyota

[--Redwork--]

I'm biased...

SR for the WIN..!!..
Heaps better than a turbo 4a..
Its like having a 600cc motor bike or a 1000cc one...
On the 1000 your hardly ever gunna have the thing tapped out, but on a day to day a 1000 is SOOO much better live with..

And engines thats don't NEED to be thrashed hard always last longer..

[slydar]

did you blow up a a few srs at first too?

both motors are great. they both have their "problems" but the 4a is the tougher motor overall.

you cant expect it to make the same power as 2L though. but im sure a 4a can make better specific power (hp/L) and more reliably.

[kos!]

did you blow up a a few srs at first too?

both motors are great. they both have their "problems" but the 4a is the tougher motor overall.

you cant expect it to make the same power as 2L though. but im sure a 4a can make better specific power (hp/L) and more reliably.

Why is a 4A a tougher motor? I didn't think that either of them really had any major defects from the factory, unlike lol oil pump RB26s.

[ae71]

i thought about going down the 3sgte route, but why skimp on a sr20 when it is set up for rwd to begin with.

dont get me wrong, i love toyotas and respect those who choose to stay original and keep it toyota

thats what i ment,

sr damn near bolts in, so easy to get parts for, cheap etc

plus the 3s isnt all alloy?

[Beau]

SR! Gets shit done!

[bigm]

Im very biased to

SR > 4A

But SR, more torque, easier power, they fit, not a hard conversion really.

and as everyone has been saying, lots of aftermarket support.


im not against 4a, but not for them haha. when i compare the 4a i drove to my NA SR, both in KEs. the SR was just better in everyway.


but thats just me.

but on the other hand again i would love a 3sgte over SR.

[Chaos Theory]

pretty sure 3s is still lighter.

[Beau]

Light weight = more gas pedal + Maths skills = Right on!

[Golberg]

I think the arguement is pointless...

If you have a really well built 4AGTE and a really well built SR20DET I you wont have problems with either.

Everything is relative, maybe you can get more for your money from an SR, but maybe money isn't a big issue and you'd rather keep things toyota.

There is no outright winner, its whatever one suits the owner of the car.

[Hokey]

yeh this is one stupid thread.

sr will make more power for your dollar than a 4a. depends what you want. nic19 on here has a extremely neat 4agte ae71 that is really fast (will prolly run high 12) didn't cost much to do and was easy. it's a daily driver and weekend fun car.

generally the sr won't be as neat a conversion and won't be as streetable but will shred tires like nothing else.

3s should stay out of this argument because of the work involved in getting them in there and reliable

[Konakid]

Eddy, i would still seriously look at your tuner/engine builder for something sus hey. There are THAT many successful examples of turbo'd ZE's and even GE's in the world that the tuning had to be out for it to pop.

Batesy (ex adelaide dude) had a 4agte gold ae86, 17psi?, stock internals made 170rwkw for years, had the shit thrashed out of it, Rowan came 2nd in the stadium drift at AIR last year in it etc, then got sold on.

His new car is turbo'd stock bigport that makes similar power, not sure how long its been going for but not dead yet.

Cant remember how much grunt Rex kelways 4a turbo lasted for but apparently 190odd rwkw and i dont think it ever blew.

[Delazy]

Eddy, i would still seriously look at your tuner/engine builder for something sus hey. There are THAT many successful examples of turbo'd ZE's and even GE's in the world that the tuning had to be out for it to pop.

Batesy (ex adelaide dude) had a 4agte gold ae86, 17psi?, stock internals made 170rwkw for years, had the shit thrashed out of it, Rowan came 2nd in the stadium drift at AIR last year in it etc, then got sold on.

His new car is turbo'd stock bigport that makes similar power, not sure how long its been going for but not dead yet.

Cant remember how much grunt Rex kelways 4a turbo lasted for but apparently 190odd rwkw and i dont think it ever blew.

:thumbup:

as has been said many many times by many many ppl

[Chaos Theory]

why is 3S a harder install than an sr20?

[driftke70]

3sgte in my opinion was leaps and bounds ahead of the sr20det, i think comparing 4a and sr doesnt really make much sense, i honestly rekon i could get both in and running for about the same cost.

4a has its teach people to drive ability. Sr has its charms, i guess.

To be honest im not the biggest fan of srs, i dont see what the hoo har is all about, we have an s15det at home in a clubman, its a wierd motor, makes power in all the wrong places, sounds pretty good on the pipe but the ones i hear at the track make me want to stick knives in my ears.

People say off the shelf stuff for the sr, the likelyhood of getting a red top in good condition is pretty slim, black tops are pretty exxy. 3sgte makes 255hp and fuckload more torque, and the ability to go higher is just as easy.

People always end up fucking around with srs, doing sr20de+t's and crap because they cant find clean motors and stuff.

I was going to go 13bt for over a year, had the cash for an engine sitting there and just never found a clean half cut.

Also thought id mention 3s has more torque than a 4.7 v8 landcruiser.

[lolwat]

we all knwo that both engine have enough balls to slide and do mad skids so imo WHO CARES as long as you can do skids and slides, what ever you think looks SICKO

[KE70GT]

3sge ftw cause it has it's cams in the right place over the valves, none of this rocker arm bs that the sr has and even though it's cast iron it's still lighter then an sr

i don't think you should be comparing a 4a against an sr cause they were built at different times and they have different capacity’s 4a should be compared to a Nissan 1.6 that was built in the 80s

[groupa4agte]

i hate this debate on the 4A vs SR
i dont think they should be compared as one s a 2L and a newer design
if only the 4age was a 2L and was designed with coilpacks etc and built for a turbo
Now that would be a very interesting comparison

[R&D Mechanical]

Eddie, can you please post up your full spec list of your engine setups please?

ie 4agte: list mods SR20: list mods.


Would like to see the differances, how MUCH boost? etc

I think running way to much boost is the case

cheers

[Konakid]

Beally, gotta remember that the 3S weighs a fair bit more than the alloy block SR no?

[Chaos Theory]

i have read on toymods that despite sr's alloy block the 3s are actually lighter, dont know if its true though.

[driftke70]

not really hey, they use iron sure, but less of it. It comes from the factory with a ballanced bottom end and forged pistons in the 205. When you take into account everything from both conversion i rekon youd be lucky to find 10 kg difference. I pulled a fuckload of weight out of originial dump pipes and car/engine mounts etc, Not much left when all you run off the belt is an alternator.

[ke_70]

where does the beams 3s stand in all this
i decided the beams over the sr

[ke70dave]

its not really a fair comparison...

one is turbo 2L from factory and marketed as a performance engine. which have sold millions of.

the other happends to be the top of the line engine in the toyota corolla, a cheap car that they have sold millions of. andit sonly 1.6L and people happen to bolt turbo engines onto them.

a better comparison would be:

3sgte vs sr20det or
4age vs bda cosworth (ohh mumma id love a bda)
sr20det vs fj20det or
sr20det vs 13bt or
4age vs honda's equivilent
sr20det vs 4g63? (evo engine)

4agte vs ca18det is prolly the closest comparison, but even then one is factory, and the other isn't. and as soon as you start doing something that isnt factory then unless you do everything perfectly then you are going to introduce some unreliabilities.

i would be inclined to put a sr20 in my car if i ever went turbo, purely for the fact that its a factory turbo engine, but then again if i had the cash id prolly just buy an s14 or something. least you get a comfy car that is quite nice, as opposed to a 25yr old hacked together thing:P haha

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

My experiences:
Got a 4AGZE from a wrecker, bolted it in (think I changed oil, filter and plugs), upped the boost and drove every single drift event in Victoria, plus some interstate ones for about 3 years, plus a bunch of daily driving. Ran on whatever oil I found, and regularly was off the dipstick at the end of a night. Eventually snapped a crankshaft (bad luck? too tight SC belt? who knows).

In that time I saw countless stock, modified and fully built SR20s blow up in friends drift cars.

Sure it comes down to a bunch of factors, but I think you can see why I think 4As are less likely to die.

Hen

[Evocom]

I say "each to ones own.". any motor that does the job required of it and does it within the required budget is the one you want. my only 4a was a bog stock 4ac that got the absolute shit thrashed out of it doing crazy revs, very little [if any] services, and it took this abuse for about 3 years of my apprenticeship. It never broke down just kept getting slightly slower. it was still running when i pulled it out. On that experience i wouldn't hesitate on a stock 4ag for daily duties. BUT for track.. [and not having driven a 4ag or 4agte] my ke with sr i got from simonke is a absolute machine. Awsome motor that just works bloody well. I was never a fan of the sound of an sr [hate them with a screamer] but this one has really grown on me. Still, quads and a lot of rpm will always sound the ducks nuts. One day i'd like a 4agte as i got hooked on ke70s years ago when zoom magazine did a conversion issue and there was a matt black ke on the cover from new zealand with a ze bottom end and 20 valve head making just shy of 300atwkw:)) [wasn't a daily though].
plus it is a bit harsh facing a 1.6 against 2.0. reminds me of a battle i saw recently with a 1.6na vs sr2.4det off its nuts but both engines got the job done to make it to the battle;). was a shame about the outcome of it though. lol

[--Redwork--]

^^^ I remember that mag and that car...
It was running a gt 30/40 turbo..
My friend runs the same turbo on his SR.. and after driving his car, that KE would be an absolute pig of thing to drive... Would have to be spining at least 5000rpm before you got desent boost..

Slydar... I personally have NEVER broken a SR...
Lock busted 2 engines.. First was broken rockers from no revlimit.. (have no idea why there was no limiter)
Second was a broken ring landing.. But thats what you get with mystery engines..

My old NA sr survived 9000rpm everytime it went out.. Even coped 10000 + rpm when I had a throtle stick one day..

When I pulled it down everything was still PERFECT...

Perfect world I'd have a turbo Beams..

[stx-16]

I like both but think they should stay in a chassis by the same manufacturer....just me!

2nd that

[Konakid]

Oh ill also add that leigh pidwell is on his 3rd or fourth SR.

But then again others have lasted years with no maintenance.

[DRFTR86]

yes but he did run a "welded shut" wastegate aswell, speaking to him about some events, on a untune, stock injectors, t25g, he was seeing up to 30psi, just because leighs on his 4th doesnt mean they arent reliable

[Delazy]

Oh ill also add that leigh pidwell is on his 3rd or fourth SR.

But then again others have lasted years with no maintenance.

hahaha..theres also reason for that..that isnt engine reliability related..

the bloke is massively hard on the engines and a "touch" ghetto at times..

but fk he can wheel..

[Konakid]

Thats what im trying to say, it depends how they are tuned and treated ultimately as to how long they willl last.

Darren Appleton ran his s13 without even changing the plugs for a few years, was weet.

[Delazy]

Thats what im trying to say, it depends how they are tuned and treated ultimately as to how long they willl last.

Darren Appleton ran his s13 without even changing the plugs for a few years, was weet.

one of the guys down here in the state series bought a sr20 180sx track pig from melbourne for about 8k...quite decent looking car...but he hasnt changed oil/plugs or anything in the last 5 drifting meetings...hasnt had to touch the car at all other than changing rear tyres lol

[Robo86]

I would choose 4AGTE any-day of the week, a rebuilt gze to factory specs with a t28bb on 15psi will last forever. Pretty simple.

I see way too many SR20s go BANG or have countless electrical problems.

But like everyone said its all relative (good build, good tune. shit should last regardless of what it is)

[FAST EDDIE]

specs list:

origional 4agte hi comp smallport made 170kw on 16psi lasted 3 meets but probsably the best ever engine i have driven with

origional 4agte bigport still goes today made 160kw stock bigport with smallport head trd gasket.

built 4agte, microtech, aries pistons balanced, rods, trd gasket, smallport head ports smoothed a little, made 160kw on 16psi weak as piss, did 2 rounds then rebuilt at end of season, fresh rebuild made 170kw on 18psi blew the shit out of it first track day!! 044pump, lift pump, surge tank, r32 hks radiator, 40 degree day, had put all the jap rwd brand new genuine cooling system on and did 2 laps then overheating like a mofo let it cool downt then half a lap and bang!!!

sr20det stock t28bb microtech, fmic, exhaust 177kw on 14psi, realised had a cracxked piston, rebuilt with pistons and a hg, 190kw on 18psi, rebuilt agan at end of season, rods, 4 lyr hg, arp all round, 2871 turbo 221kw on 20psi 4.3 diff ratio. 209kw on 19psi 4.55 ratio havent touched it all season, limiter set to 6.500rpm and still dont hit it.

ke70 stock sr t28bb fmic exhaust stock ecu greedy style manifold, 178kw on 13psi.

[redsprinter]

wow dude seems like you had some bad luck with you 4a's. with all your 4a were they all de-comp to suit turbo application ?

like above :nissan car - nissan motor / toyota car - toyota motor .

if a sr20 was wat you wanted then 180 /s13 is wat should of been bought. i mean they can just look as good as any other 80's car with 15x8 mesh /old school rims with bolt on guards...

[Hokey]

eddy why did you say the turbo 4agte was the best engine you have every driven? surely the sr does better skids? more torque more power etc

[GEMTA22]

Pete has raced his 20v silvertop hachi NA for over 5 years.
Never ever missed a beat in 5 years of thrashing!!

[Revan]

Strange thread and intersesting posts considering which forum this is.

I get the gist that guys who have track cars seem to get cheaper squirt from the bigger newer nissan motors....

but come on, dosn't any part of you feel like you're backing a light truck motor over a high spun audibly symphonic little gem?

no.... ahem...then.... nissansilvia.com, boostcruising, more at home?

(no offence track car guys. ps let me know where you get ur moneys lol)

[xero]

(no offence track car guys. ps let me know where you get ur moneys lol)

saving our fucking arses off, and being hermits..

[DRFTR86]

xero got that right, and sr'ss sounds like trucks, ca's sound a bit more barky

[70wagon]

sr20 :D that is all

[FAST EDDIE]

i love ae86's have for years bought my first one for 8k bout 9 years ago, my first car was a ke20 so ive been a toyota man for years. When i started drifting my car was mirroring crabs ae86 ( the guy that built his was supplying me ideas) so i obviously went to turboing my 4age i had a smallport ze which was a high comp edition and was the first turbo car id driven, as it was high comp had low down and serious top end but lasted only a couple of rounds probably becaus of the surrounding mods, i then rebuilt and rebuilt 4as trying to keep them going to no avail and after having a very succesful year in drift i wasnt happy with unreliability so th obvious engien was an sr as most of the drif field run them.

My choice to go sr was for reliability, and it showed when i eventualy got the sr all sorted i finished 3rd in the state after a year and ahalf of unreliability.

i built a 4age ke70 couple of months ago and it was slow as fk so i bought a sr halfcut for 3k, when you way up the costs of dropping a 4agte in with the reliability and power of and there is no comparison, you would probly spend 10k to get the same reliability out of a 4agte.

my origional 86 has a 4ag na 16v and i love it for what it is but for track duties anyone that has done the conversion will never look back!!!

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

imho <150 4a >150 sr

[--Redwork--]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Revan

(no offence track car guys. ps let me know where you get ur moneys lol)

saving our fucking arses off, and being hermits..

+ like a 10000000000.

I have no life and spend all my moeny on my car and my daughter...
And I think the only way that'll change is if I won LOTO

[daily_driven_death_sled]

mazda bpt engine, rare as fuck but best 4 potter turbo around

[redsprinter]

how about 4g63 or watever it is out of the mitso EVO?

[ke_70]

dont those new civics have awesome motors?

[Evocom]

mazda bpt engine, rare as fuck but best 4 potter turbo around

+1 to that. go 1 better with a BPd series from the group A gtr familia and you get a 30psi turbo from factory[with slight wastegate enlargement]. I had one setup in a ke70 with mx5 inlet, mx5 box and vmount setup. its a shame i bought a complete car and my shell is now gone.

[redsprinter]

pics or it didnt happen . =)

[driftke70]

150< 4ag
200< beams
250< sr
300+ 3s

[sundee]

i think that this thread, other then blokes giving their experiences and opinions is just invalid and not accurate at all..

for starters as mentioned your compairing early 80's technology with late 90's to 21st century technology.

one engine being N/A from factory
the other factory turbo (DE engines turboed fail)
one being 1587cc
the other 1998cc

weakness's:

SR - slow hydraulic lifters - cause rocker arm float and snapped rocker arms at hi rpm
- crappy oil pickup - have a look at the cams of an SR and u'll soon see the heat marks

4a - Pistons + rods - no good for turbo application

in either case, give the motor to a builder that knows what they are doing and send it to a reputable tuner and u will in both cases have a solid engine.

obviously after installing a larger sump + modding oil pickup and at a min rocker stoppers or tomei solid lifter conversion for the SR and u will have bullet proof engines.

Build quality + Tune Quality = reliable and fun engine.
Except if u own a rotor and no matter what u do its gonna catch on fire!

if u want to really comparre the both.. its gotta be N/A vs N/A

just wish u could get your 4a up to the 2000cc capacity without going to un square

[driftke70]

in the case of a 3s, 255hp standard, no need for aftermarket ecu,
no serious modifications, dont need to take it to an engine builder,
no serious faults, reliable etc.

sr you will need a vvti black top, they make around 10hp less and a wee bit less talk later on in the revs.

3s with a decent exhaust and cat, standard water to air cooler and boosted upto 15psi your making 300 on a standard ecu.

no need for shiny intercoolers and pipes everywhere and stuff, mr plod opens the bonnet looks like a corolla motor.



People keep saying the 4ag vs sr arguement is invalid, it is if you argue them on paper, but realistically, people have a 4ag in their engine bay and want more power, they can either turbo their 4ag or opt out for an sr or the likes. Thats why the arguement exists.
The 4ag is easier because youll have the mounts and everything there (forgetting diff upgrades between both motors), youll be able to get a box on the motor and in the tunnel pretty easy. You can use readily available turbos from wrx and the likes. Can make pretty good power pretty realiably if you dont jerk off and wind it up.

Sr costs coin to buy in the first place if you already have a 4ag, which comes up to the comparison of using that money to put pistons and rods in your 4ag, manifold, turbo and ecu. But your probably going to ecu the sr anyways.

Then you have to dick around with mounts and firewall and gearbox and tailshaft.

Engineering will be slightly harder.

ect ect ect you can see what im getting at.

[daily_driven_death_sled]

+1 to that. go 1 better with a BPd series from the group A gtr familia and you get a 30psi turbo from factory[with slight wastegate enlargement]. I had one setup in a ke70 with mx5 inlet, mx5 box and vmount setup. its a shame i bought a complete car and my shell is now gone.

their completely factory forged and balanced hey?
ive heard 323 GTR's can put down 260awkw with just an inter cooler and exhaust, thats enuf to chop anything thats been mentioned on this thread

lol that was the best car in gran turismo 2

[driftke70]

again, on paper arguements.

show me one for sale that you can get in the next month for good money in good condition. Convert it to rwd easily, mate it to a gear box easily.

[daily_driven_death_sled]

:( help?

[driftke70]

also making 260kw at the wheels at 30psi is different to making 210 at 14.

In drifting engine characteristics are often more important than power. 4age are great for the mash your right foot and pulse the left, but when you go to high boost setups whether it be 4ag or 3s or sr they become pretty undriveable, thats why they all e break cause they cant balance the thing round the track with the throttle all the time.

i think the perfect balance for a sprinter is a beams+t running small boost, something just to help it get up into the revs a bit more.

its not a battle of who can pull the highest gear and make a smoke show

its a function of time vs money vs effort vs fun vs usability vs reliability vs traction

[daily_driven_death_sled]

i think the one i saw making 260kw was running around 24psi not 30

[driftke70]

its exponential

[sundee]

People keep saying the 4ag vs sr arguement is invalid, it is if you argue them on paper, but realistically, people have a 4ag in their engine bay and want more power, they can either turbo their 4ag or opt out for an sr or the likes. Thats why the arguement exists.

Agree

[Rice86]

i think the one i saw making 260kw was running around 24psi not 30

i know nothing about turbos..but 260kw at 24psi...

that is shockingly shit in my thoughts

and wont that have major turbo lag?...:hehe:

[sundee]

i know nothing about turbos..but 260kw at 24psi...

that is shockingly shit in my thoughts

and wont that have major turbo lag?...:hehe:

That sounds about right.... u cant really tell what power power curve its makeing with just that info.

u could make tht power with a smaller turbo and ring its neck or u could piss it in with a bug huffer and it have a crap power ban... that output is peak power..

[--Redwork--]

How about 4a v's Sr16ve.??
Both NA and both 1600cc... standard SR16ve is 176hp and the N1 version is 200..

[daily_driven_death_sled]

How about 4a v's Sr16ve.??
Both NA and both 1600cc... standard SR16ve is 176hp and the N1 version is 200..

sr16ve would take a dump on a 4age but close to impossible to get ur hands on one

[Rice86]

How about 4a v's Sr16ve.??
Both NA and both 1600cc... standard SR16ve is 176hp and the N1 version is 200..

4age vs ba16?...both 1600cc...obviously we already know which motor is better

when modding to the most extream though....can i ask is there a ba16 built to the same level as a Formula Alantic 4age?...now that would be interesting

[tuned86]

SR16VE...ooo I have an SR16VE in my 86 :P
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/5/8/8/29387.jpg

...its work in progress but im slow. Plan to take it to higher rpm.



As for B16, here is an example: 180kW engine dyno so it can pump.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1109/110991_14mg.jpg

VTEC:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/title_VTEC-Powerhouse/A_110991/article.html

[evil86]

i guess u really have bad luck with 4a's, it wouldnt hurt to do one more before you give up on it.

i've spoken to some people and they say the love 4a and they had fun times with them, ae86 + 4a's =win. but i guess when it comes down to crunch time some go to sr for purely the power. For competitions power does give you an advantage. but i dont see why you cant go 3s over sr.. thats my opinion

[Chaos Theory]

i still want to know why everyone thinks 3S is harder to install in an ae86 than an SR20

[sundee]

i didnt think u could use an SR front wheel drive engine in RWD layout?

didint think the RWD gearbox's fit the block? and the crank angle sensor is at the rear of the head.. already not much room for a 20v one ...

how u planing to do it all??

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Fitting an SR20DET to AE86:
- Buy motor+box/halfcut
- Make engine and box mounts and tailshaft
- Connect IC/rad/elecs

Fitting 3SGTE to AE86:
- Buy 3S
- Buy 2S sump and pickup
- Buy W5* and 2S bell or use an expensive box
- Sort out flywheel
- Sort out starter
- Move/sort dizzy (unless you bought a Gen4 to start with)
- New manifolds (both intake and exhaust)
- Make engine and box mounts and tailshaft
- Connect IC/rad/elecs

Despite really liking 3Ses I know which one I'd choose if I had limited time or budget.

Hen

[Chaos Theory]

yes, but if you think about it that's all the same stuff required for either conversion.

with the flywheel for 3S you would buy a lightweight flywheel and heavy duty clutch, something you would want to do with an SR20 anyway.

new intake and exhaust manifolds (extractors) are something you would want to improve performance and something you would also want to do with an SR20.


the only real difference is dizzy and sump but that is minor.

i dont see how it could really cost much more, a decent half cut isn't going to be cheap but getting all the bits for the 3s one at a time very well could be

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

...with the flywheel for 3S you would buy a lightweight flywheel and heavy duty clutch, something you would want to do with an SR20 anyway.

new intake and exhaust manifolds (extractors) are something you would want to improve performance and something you would also want to do with an SR20...

If it was a major project then yes, doing all that would be nice. Still it is required for the 3S, but just a nice addition for the SR.

[Poobrown86]

Owning both, id say SR is much better, that said, my bt20v is equally as fun to drive.

[biggo]

I dont understand you people. Why debate something that will have no argument in your decision?

You either want a 4A or an SR

Deal with it.

[tuned86]

i didnt think u could use an SR front wheel drive engine in RWD layout?

didint think the RWD gearbox's fit the block? and the crank angle sensor is at the rear of the head.. already not much room for a 20v one ...

how u planing to do it all??

fwd blocks can be made to fit rwd blocks, requires bit of welding, drill/tapping.

Heres what I will roughly do;
* Aftermarket ECU
* Rebuild Engine using Mix FWD head-RWD block (keep 1600 internals if you want)
* Buy P12 CAS or use aftermarket equivalent
* Relocate soleniods using kit
* throttle body chop and weld as like AE92's or ITB (not sure if it will fit).
* Do you normal SR conversion (suspect it have to sit few cm forward more depending on CAS selection & gearbox) etc, or bye bye firewall/trans tunnel.
* Million of little things I missed (speedo, tailshaft/yoke)

Lots of work and $$ for a SRXXVE and return isn't that high esp for a 1600cc version. Lucky its on the project car, otherwise I would've just slaped a 4age and be done with it.

[Poobrown86]

I dont understand you people. Why debate something that will have no argument in your decision?

You either want a 4A or an SR

Deal with it.

He speaks the truth, stop dreaming and actually do something.

[lolwat]

fuck you all KE70, RB26
YEA WHAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(in my sweetest dreams)

[--Redwork--]

I ran a FWD head on my rwd Sr engine. was easy..

Just got me a 60-1 crank trigger disk and a magnetic pickup. cost like $120 for both..
Then when you order your ECU just specify that your running 60-1 setup.. DONE....

As for the Soliniods on the head.. there are a few solutions.. all of which you'll be able to find on SR20.com and lots of other usefull information..

Plus if you built it using an SR20 bottom end you can use the pistons out of the VE engine for mucho compressions..

[daily_driven_death_sled]

That sounds about right.... u can really tell what power power curve its makeing with just that info.

u could make tht power with a smaller turbo and ring its neck or u could piss it in with a bug huffer and it have a crap power ban... that output is peak power..

thats actually on the stock turbo so it makes the power way high but has a sorta n/a shaped torque/power curve

[fantapants]

that sorta power out of a bp from the gtr is a load of crap.

i had one and played a fair bit with them

they had high compression to try and counter the larger turbo they were using for homologation purposes. Was one of the first mass produced cars to run bb turbo. Off boost response was quite good owing to the relatively na compression ratio, BUT you could not run massive boost without big changes.

The gearboxs were week as piss and broke if you looked at 2 gear sideways.

They were a nice engine for their time, BUT they are not a hero engine :)

fucking fun car though :)

[Evocom]

not so sure about 260kw but when i was getting my gtr equipped tx3 dynod at jaustech in adelaide[darren masters was the BP god] there was another gtr tx3 there making 246kw at all fours[hub pack dyno] with a standard engine/turbo, bigger injectors, motec, zorst and front mount. Although next time i saw it it wasn't running after smashing its dogbox. I was also getting my gtr box rebuilt:cries:. The boxes are absolute shit:thumbdown:[i'm on my 4th] but the engines are gold:thumbup:. Although i love the engines at the end of the day i believe there was only ever 2500 made for group A homologation so they are hard to come by and they will never have the aftermarket support like a SR or 4a etc. I've been tryin to post my pics of the setup i had in my corrolla but i haven't worked out how to get my pictures up yet. Hopefully soon.

[sundee]

^^^ meant to say cant not can.....

[aeadzy86]

as much as i love the 4age's revvyness and sound, SR all the way!!!!

[--Redwork--]

As for B16, here is an example: 180kW engine dyno so it can pump.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1109/110991_14mg.jpg

VTEC:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/title_VTEC-Powerhouse/A_110991/article.html[/QUOTE]


Anyone else notice the RPM..^^^^

[todd]

http://jamiedubs.com/fuckflickr/data/web/over-9000.jpg

[--Redwork--]

LOL...

Its well past 9000..

I used to spin my SR to 8800..

I know some of the All Motor guys state side running Honda K20s spin their engines to well over 10000.. And make STUPID amounts of power.

[bg89]

if u want to really comparre the both.. its gotta be N/A vs N/A


probally one of the best point made thus far

[timmeh12]

http://jamiedubs.com/fuckflickr/data/web/over-9000.jpg

best post in this thread

[driftke70]

As for B16, here is an example: 180kW engine dyno so it can pump.
http://us1.webpublications.com.au/static/images/articles/i1109/110991_14mg.jpg

VTEC:
http://autospeed.drive.com.au/cms/title_VTEC-Powerhouse/A_110991/article.html


Anyone else notice the RPM..^^^^[/QUOTE]

microsoft excell graph totally legit

[redsprinter]

AHAHHAHA owned ...

quite intersting read tho. in the link ..

thats more or less same power as a formula Atlantic 4ages right?

[tuned86]

More or less, but it doesnt' need to idle at 2000-3000rpm and has torque under 5k to get ya milk. Otherwise you can get a 2.0 and don't have to rev as high and still make powaaaa.

[myke90]

i like period correct modifications.

i have an SR20DET S13 - my mate has a 4age AE86 - i think they are perfect in their own way. Nissan for nissan and Toyota with Toyota.

Mad engine conversions are impressive but only when getting seriously competitive where you need the extra power/reliability. my mate has Josh young's old ae86 with a V8 in it - bit overkill but perfect for the track, and reliable.

[s14seriesII]

4ag(zte) has a weakness of being small capacity, and everything associated with being small capacity( revs, no torque, etc)

sr20 has a weakness of rocker arms, small oil pan, cant race in proper classes and its a datsun motor :S

3sge(t or beams) has a weakness of fitment difficulties

1uz has fitment difficulties, never regsiterable, cant race in proper classes,



all the 4cylinder engines listed are going to have the same efficiency as each other at making power..

make your choice and do it

[Big_Car_Killa]

its not really a fair comparison...

one is turbo 2L from factory and marketed as a performance engine. which have sold millions of.

the other happends to be the top of the line engine in the toyota corolla, a cheap car that they have sold millions of. andit sonly 1.6L and people happen to bolt turbo engines onto them.

a better comparison would be:

3sgte vs sr20det or
4age vs bda cosworth (ohh mumma id love a bda)
sr20det vs fj20det or
sr20det vs 13bt or
4age vs honda's equivilent
sr20det vs 4g63? (evo engine)




3SGTE vs SR20DET = SR wins for weight (alloy block) torque curve, outright power and how you go about getting it. With 3SGTE's you run serious equipment/boost when searching above 220rwkw, and you have the powerband of a 2-stroke compared to SR's. Have a look at a SW20 MR2 forum to see the graphs these guys have for what the throw into the motors. Its embarrassing.
And both sound like ass.

But being a Toyota man, im going 3SGTE lol :D


4AGE vs Bda Cosworth - the Pommy 4G63, what a original idea! Apart from poor Aussie backup of knowledge and parts, it would sure draw a few WTF?!? looks! Cant go past what those things put out, either! Weapon of a motor.

FJ20DET - Do you know how heavy these are??? lol

13BT - Hard to argue! Looked after well, it can be a good reliable option for something original.

Honda B16A - Honda motors spin the wrong way. Ever seen a S2000 motor used without its gearbox? But def the best NA 1.6 to drive this earth.

4G63 is a undisputed top motor. But i rekon they belong in EVO's and Starions.





Fuck it all:

Chuck a LS1 in it!

[driftke70]

s2k dont spin backwards

[Big_Car_Killa]

Makes it the only one lol

[letsgohunting]

Sr sounds like poo and has a whack torque band. Everyone goes on about how they have so much mid range, but I've found that if you want to drive on fast (in an s chassis nissan) you need to rev the crap out of it. The thing is, when they get over 6000rpm they sound really strained and get all vibraty. The rev cutoff is 7 flat. They aren't really pleasant engines to rev.

And yes, I owned an s14 with blacktop 20 for a year, so I'm not just pulling shit out of a hat. I'd go as far as saying I don't think I'll own another s chassis nissan ever again soley because I dislike sr20's that much. The rb20det is the better motor in my experience - same lack of mid and low punch but absolutely loves to rev and sounds soooo sweet. Strong as all fuck too. But then you'd never put one in an ae or ke - would just be silly.

Just my opinion though.

[Frak]

The only problem running a BDA(and I am a fan big time...I even named my cat Cosworth) is the price of parts, I have been involved with some big HP BDG's etc over the years and for us mere mortals they are bankrupt material :(

My bro and I did the 13BT into an 86 many years ago, and it hammered.

[s14seriesII]

3SGTE vs SR20DET = SR wins for weight (alloy block) torque curve, outright power and how you go about getting it. With 3SGTE's you run serious equipment/boost when searching above 220rwkw, and you have the powerband of a 2-stroke compared to SR's. Have a look at a SW20 MR2 forum to see the graphs these guys have for what the throw into the motors. Its embarrassing.
And both sound like ass.

But being a Toyota man, im going 3SGTE lol :D


4AGE vs Bda Cosworth - the Pommy 4G63, what a original idea! Apart from poor Aussie backup of knowledge and parts, it would sure draw a few WTF?!? looks! Cant go past what those things put out, either! Weapon of a motor.

FJ20DET - Do you know how heavy these are??? lol

13BT - Hard to argue! Looked after well, it can be a good reliable option for something original.

Honda B16A - Honda motors spin the wrong way. Ever seen a S2000 motor used without its gearbox? But def the best NA 1.6 to drive this earth.

4G63 is a undisputed top motor. But i rekon they belong in EVO's and Starions.





Fuck it all:

Chuck a LS1 in it!


massive fail

sr20 vs 3s, they are both so close its not funny, sr loses due to an idiot rocker arm/lifter arrangement. 3s makes the same power and torque curve as sr,
fitted with the same mods same boost same cams etc etc you will not see a difference
my 3s is just as efficient and has a huge torque curve comparable to any sr thats supporting similar mods, i also doubt there would be even 10kg difference in the weight (sr might be alloy but its castings are chunky and has a huge steal girdle/brace in the sump,


maybe you should compare a 4age to sr16ve and b16a then the later technology takes the win for datsun and honda..

2zzge vs sr16ve or sr20ve, b18b/c could be interesting ??

[Sam-Q]

4ag(zte) has a weakness of being small capacity, and everything associated with being small capacity( revs, no torque, etc)

sr20 has a weakness of rocker arms, small oil pan, cant race in proper classes and its a datsun motor :S

3sge(t or beams) has a weakness of fitment difficulties




SR also has oil pickup and pump issues, heavy as, poor flowing head, bulky and apparently has problems with ring land thicknesses due to the gudgen pin position.

3sgte breaks in half after a certain power and requires a 5S block to get around it.

4age has shithouse ports in it and the 20v has 4 too many valves to be good. If only they did all the other changes but with 4V.

to me it's a matter of compromise and as said before this argument is pointless.

I want the bullshit to stop, I am looking for an sr20 and a 3s engine out and in my area so I can weigh them both. I want to see if the 3S is lighter and if so by how much. It's like the myth that ae86's weigh 900kg, they just don't.


So far i have found that the CA18 gearbox is exactly 10kg heavier than the T50.

[driftke70]

i might be able to give you an accurate weight of a 3sgte gen 3, but it has a beams sump on it and whether i could be bothered taking the gear box off is another question.

[s14seriesII]

i could weigh up a bare gen 3 3sgte, with no manifolds or cam covers or gears or anything... may not be that usefull :S




3sgte breaks in half after a certain power and requires a 5S block to get around it.

.

265rwkw and going strong on a stock gen 1 3s with only new rings and bearings... stock pistons, rods, block, cams and everything..

[Sam-Q]

i could weigh up a bare gen 3 3sgte, with no manifolds or cam covers or gears or anything... may not be that usefull :S




265rwkw and going strong on a stock gen 1 3s with only new rings and bearings... stock pistons, rods, block, cams and everything..

I guess I should of said that point is quite high

[s14seriesII]

detonation is the killer.. i have heard supposedly good tuning shops claim a 3sgte will crack the block and bearing caps at 230rwkw and wont last 5 minutes... needless to say they obviously cant tune


ok 3sgte, complete engine with flywheel, exhaust manifold, no inlet, no turbo, no oil, no engine mounts is...

105kg

anyone know what other engines are ?

[worked]

i'm with big car killa, LS1 would be the most prime choice

i've had a few different engines, but then again i'm a f**king idiot and if you put an engine in your bus cos f**king idiots like me say to then you are also a f**king idiot
not to be confused with a bloody idiot, thats only if you drink drive apparently
(n/a 4a and having to push ultra hard just to keep up is the best choice tho)

[s14seriesII]

4efte would be a good choice they make good power and torque for what they are :)

pretty reliable at high boost aswell

[Sam-Q]

detonation is the killer.. i have heard supposedly good tuning shops claim a 3sgte will crack the block and bearing caps at 230rwkw and wont last 5 minutes... needless to say they obviously cant tune


ok 3sgte, complete engine with flywheel, exhaust manifold, no inlet, no turbo, no oil, no engine mounts is...

105kg

anyone know what other engines are ?

pity you has an exhaust manifold on when you weighed it. I weighed a 20v with no manifolds or brackets dry, it was 88. You know considering the weight of that exhaust manifold 105 is seriously good. I am betting that it would be lighter than the SR.

[s14seriesII]

exhaust manifold appeared to be 6kg, flywheel that i had sat on the scales is quite heavy say approx 9 to 10 kg ( could easily use a lighter one )

i am only using normal bathroom scales... they seem to be close when i weighed myself

[Big_Car_Killa]

Bullshit Mark.

Look at DK's motor he built, made fuck-all usable boost below 4,500k, Jason's MR2 has had more cam and turbo combo's than ive ever seen and even he admits his 3S will never make power as easy or boost as good as an SR.

As i mentioned, have a look on all the MR2 forums and check out the graphs. These guys are running serious boost for bugger all power with a lovely dose of lag.

[driftke70]

cause they are ditching the top mount water to air cooler.

[Beau]

erghhhh.. run what you want. None is better then the other really.. 3s costs a bit more but both the SR and 3s combo in a 86 are great options. One weighs more then the other, but anyone should know how to balance the weight and try and get the car close to "real 86 weight again".

My 86 with SR and G series diff now weighs ALOT less then a stock 86 im sure Marks is super light also and id say Beally will make his light also..

All else fails.. LESS LIFT!

[redsprinter]

would be intersting if we got some 86s/ ke on a scale after it has had a 3sge/sr20 install vs highly moded na vs stock jdm vs stock adm. and i would also go one step further and see its front / rear weight ratio.

anyone with acess to large a scale? i would be keen to to see my car.

[driftke70]

just go to the dump, what i do.

My car is probably lighter than stock, plexi glass windows and shit, gutted doors, stripped, not much dash, basically just a cluster and the top dash skin part, fuel cell has taken a lot of weight out.

Dont really think the 3s weighs that much.

I tossed up the 3s vs sr thing, as you say its what ever suit you, i chose 3s cause i like to keep it toyota and my brother was selling one stupidly cheap.

[Beau]

Mines weighing close to 880kg. But could be lighter.. Could be heavier. i only ever run 25L on the track so yer could be this or that. Should be a lot lighter in soon when i stick a full cage in and gut the whole car and finish making my FRP doors on.

I actually just recently got the Truenos ass end weight to how it was when it was stock. The G series is like driving with a dead badger in the boot, now the car feels like a sprinter again.

I put a SR in my car cause it was cheap and i knew it would upset all the purists that i cut up a JDM Trueno.

Im a sinner!

[redsprinter]

yeah i love hate you .... and then there's your trueno . ahahahaha

[Sam-Q]

would be intersting if we got some 86s/ ke on a scale after it has had a 3sge/sr20 install vs highly moded na vs stock jdm vs stock adm. and i would also go one step further and see its front / rear weight ratio.

anyone with acess to large a scale? i would be keen to to see my car.

I have it on my cards, I have the scales that I will use for my corner-weighting. It won't be anytime soon but I am going to weigh heaps of stuff

[Beau]

but I am going to weigh heaps of stuff


My balls? hehe

[fantapants]

i cant beleive people are still convinced hondas still spin the wrong way...


and still cant believe this thread is still going lol

ps all engines are shit when you throw bits of metal down the inlet

[--Redwork--]

Honda engines DO spin the wrong way... Only S2000 and the K series engines (which are almost identical) spin normal... As far as I'm aware..

[s14seriesII]

Bullshit Mark.

Look at DK's motor he built, made fuck-all usable boost below 4,500k, Jason's MR2 has had more cam and turbo combo's than ive ever seen and even he admits his 3S will never make power as easy or boost as good as an SR.

As i mentioned, have a look on all the MR2 forums and check out the graphs. These guys are running serious boost for bugger all power with a lovely dose of lag.

these mr2 owners either have no idea or have been mislead with dodgy parts and dodgy tuners

have a look at my dyno graph in my build thread...

compare apples with apples

a rear engine car is never going to be good when boosted... too much heat in every aspect

so compare front engine rear wheel drive 3sgte to sr20's

my car is a stock 1988 motor with no mods except for external stuff ( manifolds turbo etc) 21psi and 265 rwkw, stock cams, stock pistons, stock ports etc ( not many sr's do that without camshafts being changed ( not to mention rocker arm stoppers, larger oil pan)

beau yates is a 3s producing some 260rwkw also and thats apparently on only 15psi

mine has full boost at about 3400rpm

sr's and 3s's cant be very different they are both the same capacity, same bore/strock ratio, same compression ratio, same size valves except for .5mm on the exhaust,


heres a few questions

how manys sr's have won world rally championships ?

how many sr20det's win improved production ?

there were many 3sgte's running in supra's in jgtc they never seemed to have any lag or power issues even againts rb26's ??

[Sam-Q]

oh yeah the sump issue, forgot about that one;

the pickup is very close to the bottom of the sump and apparently if you hit a speedhump it pushes the sheet-metal of sump up and starves the oil supply, is this true anyone?

[s14seriesII]

no too sure about that ? i have seem some pretty damaged oil pans being used..

problem is that sr's hold about 3.2/3.4 litres of oil.. not enough for any kind of track work or spirited driving

[--Redwork--]

Yes the the pickup is easily blocked on the earlier model sr's (s13) The pickup was changed in the later model ones so that it couldn't happen...


Basically in the earlly model the pickup opening is flat and when the pan is pushed up alittle it seals perfectly onto the pickup... Just placing the engine on the ground when you remove or go to install it can cause this...

It's quite easy to fix if you have an early model pick up... You just cut up the sides of it alittle so it can't seal..
There is a pic floating around of the two pick ups side buy side. I'll try and find it.

[--Redwork--]

Not the one I was originally lookin for, but you can see the diffence.


http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/3/2/8/34621.jpg

[Sam-Q]

wow thats really dumb, why even have the metal shroud there?

[Gunner]

limits air pockets/poor scavenging, I would imagine.

[xero]

wow thats really dumb, why even have the metal shroud there?

HICAS. need i say any more...

[driftke70]

all those hicas cars with sr20s

[sundee]

hmm so many of them

[sundee]

sr with a dented sump is bad news. i cut out the pickup even larger then the one on the right.

as for weights, i think we should scrap this debate, make a thread that has car + major mods ( engine + diff etc)and what you have done the lighten it up and list the cars tare weight. just take it to your local weigh bridge.

saves the neverending arguement.