7age basic build

[redsprinter]

good old 7age thread ---> http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/board/index.php?showtopic=20854

after reading the entire thread agian.

i just want to re-confirm that for a basic 7age . with no intentions to rev it beyond 7500rpm ... i can get away with the following setup

-4age smallport head
-4age smallport pistons
-7afe rods
-7a block
-4age oil pump
-4age 100kw ecu to run it ...
-4age crank pulley along with timing belt part number is bt111 for a peugeot
-4AC flywheel


what head gaskt do i use??
do i haveto modified engine mounts, or x member.??
is it true that the sump fouls on the x member.??

it has been said that it can be done but will i need to and how hard is it to modified the rods to take one of the 4a bolts, to stop the bolts from stripping at high revs ?

this motor only need to last me 2years... motor wil be used for daily driving and weekend track thrasher... so i want to use minimal money for a good power gain over a mildly worked 4age.

[wide s13]

doesw not foul on crossmember. well mine didnt.
as per other ques i cant answer i used std bottom end haha

[redsprinter]

wides13 thanks for that ..i was just reading your memebr thread on the old forum ... so any updates on the motor ?

one question .. what did you do for the exhuast manifold...does the 4age one fit ?

[wide s13]

yeah it fits. just lifted it up 10mm or so. fit though.
well im trying to fix a plroblem but i beleive its nothing related to the 7age as it happend to a previous motor.
till its fixed i cant dyno it.

[70XIN]

i just want to re-confirm that for a basic 7age . with no intentions to rev it beyond 7500rpm ... i can get away with the following setup

-4age smallport head Yes
-4age smallport pistons Yes
-7afe rods Yes
-7a block Yes
-4age oil pump No, 7AFE Pump (if you plan on using that timing belt listed below)
-4age 100kw ecu to run it ... Yes
-4age crank pulley along with timing belt part number is bt111 for a peugeot Yes
-4AC flywheel Yes


what head gaskt do i use?? Std 4AGE head gasket
do i haveto modified engine mounts, or x member.?? No
is it true that the sump fouls on the x member.?? No

it has been said that it can be done but will i need to and how hard is it to modified the rods to take one of the 4a bolts, to stop the bolts from stripping at high revs ? I don't think there's any definitive information on the web about what works and what doesn't, but just remember to keep in mind that the rods are very skinny, and aftermarket replacements (that use well-sized ARP bolts) are available for $500

[redsprinter]

70XIN- just had another read and your right .

am i missing anything else .. or is it bolt it all up and drive away ?

for $500 bucks it.. i guess its good insurance .... are "spool" rods any good ?

[Vance]

spool rods are good. get them. itll be safer

[UGANGA]

i used a porsche timing belt on the 7a we did ?
all we used was
stock 7a bottom
small port head
and then added a turbo

[wide s13]

the porsche belt has flatter teeth as the peogeot has the same teeth as the 4age.
after spending 2hours looking through a book lols

can you put a photo up of the porsche belt so people see what i mean?
this is a peogeot one :)

[Sam-Q]

wide13: do you have a part number for that?

also incase anyone is interested a 7afe spool rod is 520 grams

[Sherlock]

-4age crank pulley along with timing belt part number is bt111 for a peugeot Yes



wide13: do you have a part number for that?

That what you're looking for?

[Sam-Q]

yeah but I wanted to confirm that wide13 also used the same belt

[Sherlock]

My bad, I'll shut up now :)

[Delazy]

wide13: do you have a part number for that?

also incase anyone is interested a 7afe spool rod is 520 grams

and belfab are 460grams

[wide s13]

yeah i chated to toxin :)
its bt111 have the box in the shed :)
only get boshe now as gates no longer do it

[Sam-Q]

wide13: good to know, thanks

delazy: I wonder what belfab want to them at the moment, I do find it a bit odd that the spool rods are so heavy and a 60 gram loss on a rod is pretty decent.

[Sam-Q]

linky:

http://www.belfabracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=263_225_355&products_id=1314

[Vance]

belfabs might be lighter but they cost a whole lot more considering the current state of the economy

[Sam-Q]

yeah your right I think they would cost around 600 to source. Too bad the spool rod isnt an I beam shape

[shift_rook]

if ya gonna do it, do it right, belfabs look like quite good quality, no personal experience with em

[*urban_ninja*]

I was going to rebuild my 4age big port but priced it all up and its only an extra 150 - 200 to do a 7age so thats the rout im going now. to me its a worth while conversion price affective and all in all if anything fails cheap as hell to replace.

[Ksevn-T]

What are 7a's out of?

Thanks,

Alex

[markiitourerv]

ae93, ae101, etc. corolla's are the most popular homes for 7afe engines.

cheap as anything.

[markiitourerv]

anyone thought of offset grinding the crank, the 7afe big ends are massive.

[lo_rolla]

2.2084" from memory?? Like a only a few 10th's different from 3s and a few thou from rb26....

I fot a pretty bad memory, I had to make myself a little book at work of Torque settings and Journal and Tunnel sizes cos I keep forgetting them :(.

But I reckon with an offset grind and some big pistons you could get them up over 1900cc.

[Axentrik]

the 7age sounds like quite a good engine. 1.8 litre 4age ftw. so what would it cost roughly for this set up?

[*urban_ninja*]

roughly depending on the cost of the 7afe short motor, I worked it out and it came to about 5 to 6 hundread, but thats also new seal kit and bearings. so its really quight cheep a set of rims infact.

[Axentrik]

lol are you serious thats fucking cheaper than a 4age

[*urban_ninja*]

that is assuming you have already got a 4age of some form. so yeah. dont forget that.

[wide s13]

yeah didnt cost much

[Axentrik]

ohh haha fair enough.. i only have a horrible 4ac so i guess im looking at about 2.5 K for a blacktop 7age with quads and trumpets.

[*urban_ninja*]

no not really just get a 4age head or a blowan one for cheap.

[mildseven]

the suitable timing belts are something from peugeot 505GTi which is has 118 teeth (installed on my 7age now), but you need to modify the tensioner since this belt is too long. The BT111 gates timing belt arrived 3 days ago from a fella from australia.( I am from indonesia).this one has 116 teeth. this is the most suitable.
my setup is smalport head and 7A bottom.
but be careful with the increment of compression ratio due to longer stroke.
i suggest you to remove the sharp edges on the combustion chamber to prevent detonation. see the trd bible book for more information about this.
thanks

[NIZLAH]

not sure if this has been answered clearly somewhere, but what is the most suitable timing belt to use when using a 20v head? as they have 2-3 teeth less than a 16v belt? or does it not make any difference because of the way you would set the tensioner up?

[70XIN]

You use a 16V 4AGE belt when using the 20V/7A combo :)

[NIZLAH]

Cheers Seamus, interesting and also allows the use of a gates racing belt or similar (wicked)

[mildseven]

not sure if this has been answered clearly somewhere, but what is the most suitable timing belt to use when using a 20v head? as they have 2-3 teeth less than a 16v belt? or does it not make any difference because of the way you would set the tensioner up?

is is easier to find timing belt for 4age16 than peugeot. cheaper too.
i bought BT111 AUD50.00 and shipped with additional AUD10.00 to indonesia.
expensive compared to our local price for toyota OEM 4age timing belt USD30.00
i guess the timing belt is not a mystery anymore.
the only problem I have is to find the proper AC compressor bracket, since the one from 4age and 7afe not match.
any idea about this? my car is for daily use, weekend rave 8|

[*urban_ninja*]

make a bracket or mod the 7a one to fit. im doing an adgustable cam gears for mine to just help and keep on top of it all. for both an incase and a bit of bling hahahahahahahaha :p

[AE71briskev]

i have a spar smallport sitting at home think i might have to do this sounds like fun and i might go all the way and get some belfab rods hmmm

[marvis]

What sort of power and torque are we looking at getting out of a stock to mild build?

marvis.

[Sam-Q]

I have been thinking lately that a 2ZZ crank has the potential to be great in a 7age build. Its 85mm vs 85.5mm of the 7a so 0.5mm taken off the face of the block should compensate for that. It would be a 1.75L and should still be able to rev hard without fear of it breaking. Just a concept idea for me and I dont know how feasable it is, however I do know its a very real possibilty to fit a ZZ crank in a 7a bottom end with some machining.

[70XIN]

didn't felix's (standard apart from ecu/exhaust/intake) make ~140rwhp?

[slydar]

I have been thinking lately that a 2ZZ crank has the potential to be great in a 7age build. Its 85mm vs 85.5mm of the 7a so 0.5mm taken off the face of the block should compensate for that. It would be a 1.75L and should still be able to rev hard without fear of it breaking. Just a concept idea for me and I dont know how feasable it is, however I do know its a very real possibilty to fit a ZZ crank in a 7a bottom end with some machining.

whats the point though?

i know its a cool idea. but. the 7a crank and flywheel fixing arrangement is proven in racing.

the zz crank isnt really easy to come by either. nor would it be cheap. + machining? youre way over a fully race prepped 7a crank.. which you know from other peoples experiences, will do the job anyway.

this idea was discussed very early in the 7ages days. before people really knew the potential of the stock parts. now days theyre proven. eg, the rods. people say theyre shit cos they look different or someone heard from someone whos never done it that they fail.

then people go out and actually do it and find the parts are reliable and up to the task.

there are a few people on here now with 7a's. no one has experienced a crank or rod failure. Felixs car has been together for years. it has stock rods. the guy who built his car now runs a 7a20 in IP and it has been running stock rods for years too.

the whole idea, i think, with a 7a, is to keep the revs down. if you do that, the load on the crank and rods is reduced. so no need to replace.

big revs are for race motors. 7ages i dont think are the best choice for a race engine. wrong capacity, and too short a rod ratio.

[marvis]

didn't felix's (standard apart from ecu/exhaust/intake) make ~140rwhp?
Don't know?

I'm mainly interested in the torque info.

[markiitourerv]

The people who successfully run stock rod 7ages, do they resize the rods and fit new bolts, or just measure and reuse s/hand parts?

The cost of resizing rods and new bolts would be approaching the price of aftermarket rods.

Am about to embark on a street type smallport build up for my daily driver, so the
7a thing is driving me nuts with indecision.

Will probably go 7age if I can get away with no bottom end machining apart from decked and honed block, and linishing the crank

Revs would be below 7500, after all this is a daily.

Want that torque.

[*urban_ninja*]

wow well i got one question to ask with it all is it necessary to run adjustable cam gears or custome rods to make it all work ????

[70XIN]

rods definitely no

cam gears in most cases yes

[mildseven]

my 7age16 smallport revs to 7700rpm(limiter) happily every week maybe 20 times on illegal drag racing.
stock 7A crank, 4ag smalport piston (new), new rings, and the rest is stock..stock, even the spark plug wire, air filter. using ron95 fuel. the engine is 2 months and still alive without any sign of failure.
pulls hard on 4000rpm. on daily driving, I shift on 2500rpm the most.

but balancing is very important i think.

[70XIN]

what car is it in? how much power?

or more importantly, what cars do you (truthfully) keep up with/beat?

[*urban_ninja*]

zing..... this is becoming a more and more impressive idea and something i am going to do its cheap easy reliable and in the end eats a 4a for both price and power.

[mildseven]

what car is it in? how much power?

or more importantly, what cars do you (truthfully) keep up with/beat?

it is ae92. corolla GTi. FWD. i don't know the HP yet, because I plan to install piggyback and got to dyno in the near future (no money right now).
can not say which car but, with 4ag16, i lost by 4 car bodies. but with 7ag16, i kept up and often win. with full interior minus spare tyre.

[slydar]

The people who successfully run stock rod 7ages, do they resize the rods and fit new bolts, or just measure and reuse s/hand parts?

The cost of resizing rods and new bolts would be approaching the price of aftermarket rods.

Am about to embark on a street type smallport build up for my daily driver, so the
7a thing is driving me nuts with indecision.

Will probably go 7age if I can get away with no bottom end machining apart from decked and honed block, and linishing the crank

Revs would be below 7500, after all this is a daily.

Want that torque.

the ones im talking about use to bolts (studs really).

[*urban_ninja*]

the ones im talking about use to bolts (studs really).




IM confused i wont clame to be a mottor know all but this is something i am really struggeling to understand invision. pleas explain sorry if this sounds retarded

[slydar]

there is a general misconception that the standard 7afe rods are not up to the task for a mild 7age set up.

the 7afe rods differ from a 4age rod, in that they use a a rod stud, rather than a bolt.
the rod is threaded, and has a stud screwing in which has thread on both ends. the rod cap goes over these, and then is fixed with nuts.

a 4age rod has a bolt, that drops in from the back. so the load is carried by the end of the bolt, where as in a 7a, its threads.

if over revved, these threads can strip out, thats all. the rods themselves i have never heard of failing. ive heard of ae111 4age (black top) rods failing. but only when revved over 9000 rpm often.
the 7a rods are said to be a similar thickness to a ae111 rod. in other ways, they might be inferior though.

having said that, for them to fail (the 7a rods), we're talking over 8000 rpm. seeing as most people here dont even own 4ages that make any power even past about 7000. it isnt really an issue.

the reason i say this is.

-greg. ipra 7a20 ke35 coupe. many seasons on stock rods, claims to rev to 9000.
-gregs old ae71, owned by felix. stock rods again. lasted greg till he was bored of it, now felixs you would assume thrashes it. years we are talking. no failure.
-posted a thread on toymods, asking for people with direct experience. some rally black said he had managed to strip the stud out of the rod. how? over revving on mis shifts. on the same corner. revved to/past 9000. 2 or 3 times (same corner) search for thread by user name Dimitri, title "7afe's tell me everything you know"

also one other user here, who is currently parting his car. didnt run his engine for that long i guess, but hes done it. i think he replied in this thread already.

most people, even for an na build on here. dont go past 272/288 size cams with close to stock lift. these cams, with stock valves (size) still dont even breath that well past 8000 prm.

with a 7a, also, there is no reason to. you will make more power, and more torque, at lower revs, than an equivalent 4age (same cams/intake ect). you will also get more CR. as sam has explained in the 7a thread on the old board.

basically the theory is, you have a comparitively smaller combustion chamber for the cubic capcity 7a>4a... youre squeezing more air, into the same size area. so end up with a higher cr.

[*urban_ninja*]

I see so this wont affect the build itself in any way ?? unless you drive like ueo

[70XIN]

exactly what i explained to you the other day buckley :P haha

but yeah, as slydarglydar said

[*urban_ninja*]

sorry i thought there was talk of bolts being to longor something of that nature :P

[markiitourerv]

So with original used rod bolts/studs/nuts used these things are reliable at sane revs?

Hmmm, now what to do...

[marvis]

Much difference with running a big port head over the small port?

</4age noob>

Thanks,
marvis.

[70XIN]

smallport head is (claimed) to be better .. at this stage though, i don't think you'll see any difference :)

[Robo86]

hmmm tempting...see how money is soonish thinking...
-stock 7afe bottom end with smallport pistons.
-trd 0.5/0.8 HG
-bigport head, stock cams etc
-stock bigport ecu.

aiming for like 120-130 wheel hp

win??

[slydar]

its a good place to start. dunno if you really want the thin HG though.. might be too much CR for the stock ecu to cope with.

[mildseven]

hmmm tempting...see how money is soonish thinking...
-stock 7afe bottom end with smallport pistons.
-trd 0.5/0.8 HG
-bigport head, stock cams etc
-stock bigport ecu.

aiming for like 120-130 wheel hp

win??

you should win. but be careful with the higher compression. my smallport head combustion chamber was modified, remove the sharp edges to prevent detonation. i have seen this on TRD bibble book.
my setup CR is 11.5 with 0.8mm TRD HG. it can drink 88 octane to 95 octane for daily used.(ignition timing changed manually). for race I always use 95 octane.

[70XIN]

yes we can "remove the joggles" as they so eloquently put it in the bible ;)

and robo will always run it on the more premium brews :)

i think rob might be on a winner

[Vance]

i agree with slydar. too much CR for stock ecu.

appart from that i cant see a problem

[Robo86]

ok. so you guys think i should be running a standard thickness hg?

[Vance]

yeah pretty much.

ive been looking into it and unless you spend lots of $ or spend almost 0 its not worthwhile building a 7age.

either use standard everything or almost aftermarket everything. mid-level 7ages are the ones that break. the ones youre gonna spend cash on to get decent power out of you might aswell make it a turbo.

just do it cheap, pretty much what youve said but have a standard 4a head gasket

[*urban_ninja*]

I think there may be a bit of consideration to take into that. such as driving styal, how you look after it and how smart you are in driving it as with anything it will last if looked after a 4age could be destroyed as easily if traeted badly. and the rods well they are newer and have more thought into the design if your that stressed $550 get spool rods.

[slydar]

yes we can "remove the joggles" as they so eloquently put it in the bible ;)

and robo will always run it on the more premium brews :)

i think rob might be on a winner

i think you didnt think about that when you wrote it. i know he puts regular in it now.. lol regular. sif.

[Robo86]

hmm must have been off my chops when i told u that haha..

premium on everyfill bruuu..

[slydar]

sif. u prolly use bio-diesel.

[mildseven]

I think you guys already know the difference of "compression ratio" and "compression pressure" :soldier:

when using regular 88 octane, I never hit 5000rpm, because knocking on high rpm sometimes can't be heard and very dangerous. I never recommend octane 88 if you running 7age with 4age smallport piston.

[mildseven]

ok. so you guys think i should be running a standard thickness hg?

i believe, you will need TRD metal HG.it gives more peace of mind :soldier:

[*urban_ninja*]

i am probabbly using a trd for that reason.

[marvis]

My brother has one of these, bought it from Wide S13. Let the fun begin!

marvis.

[Vance]

tell your brother to put some smallport pistons in to raise the compression to a reasonable level. im pretty sure wide s13's 7age was a standard 7a bottom end with 7a pistons, and a 4a head

the standard 7a head gasket is metal and thinner than a standard 4a one. if you want a metal head gasket use a 7a one

[wide s13]

its got a 7a head gasket in it to lift it more than the trd one that was in it.
any probs with the motor marvis let me know more than happy to help :)

[marvis]

Should be all sweet man. I think we will leave it as is and throw it in. Might get the cams off you though.

Thanks,
marvis.

[Sam-Q]

whatever you chose dont use any 4age piston and a 7a gasket ok? the compression would be obscene

[marvis]

Noted.

Thanks,
marvis the noob.

[*urban_ninja*]

yeah i talked to an engin builder using the 4a pistons and 7a gasket = fail and bOOM

[Sam-Q]

yeah i talked to an engin builder using the 4a pistons and 7a gasket = fail and bOOM

because of the compression issue like I mentioned or something else? Unfortunetly there is some debate about the true thickness of a 7afe gasket so I cant work out the exact compression ratio but I can tell you it will be well past 12:1 for a 20v silvertop head

[70XIN]

^ Definitely 0.6mm, two-layer metal

(I had one at one stage)

[fantapants]

hey sambo... and anyone else looking....

i have a pretty healthy 20v currently running a motec. am i right in thinking i use the topend as is, silver pistons, then the stock 7a bottom?

just shooting ducks right now but looking for projects to keep me busy ocver the rest of the year :)

[*urban_ninja*]

I don't think so just use the top end as is with ecu and all 7a bottem end with small port pistons. thats my thinking its the pistons that rase comp to a happy level. you do need to get the small port pistons matched to the 7a rods but that fuck all

[Sam-Q]

ninja: I have to think about it but I would think the dome on a smallport piston is pretty simular to a 20v.


fanta: you need to do the following:

- use a stock 20v gasket

- only run 98 (or higher) octane fuel

- most importantly get it retuned and dont drive it there to do that!

once you do that it should work well

[fantapants]

yeah she only swallows premium.. :) worthwhile you think? or head forced?

[Sam-Q]

too hard to answer, if you want big range range torque then go for it

[fantapants]

yeah 6 of one half a dozen of another?

ill rephrase... worthwhile learning experiance for someone of limited experiance?

[Sam-Q]

if you think you can tear down an engine, put it back together and make it run then yes go for it, I will.

Also can someone tell me how to take pressed pins out again? dont I have to heat them up to 80 or something?

[*urban_ninja*]

sam Q: you think it is necessary to do a tune on styandard ecu????? I would think the adgustable cam gears would be about all you would need if running most standard head

[Sam-Q]

I dont know, however the question to me is irrelevant because it isnt logical to me, let me explain;

there is a huge amount of mid range power to be gained by going to an aftermarket ecu so instead of going to the all trouble of fitting a 7A bottom end do this first

so can anyone tell me how far out my cam gears will be by using a 20v head on a 7a bottom? I want to keep my VVT

[*urban_ninja*]

i see your point but at the same tim the power can also be achieved for less by doing the 7a given you have a 4age to start with. my sums minus bottem end, so block, machean work, new small port pistons andrings, gaskets, belts, cam gears and oils and so on warked out to around $1400 now a aftermarket ecu is around $1000 plus tuning and towing and so on. so why not do the engin and then deside from there i see your point i the computer and yes I do agree with your statement to a point. its like if you had a turbo engin you would go a computer befour bouring it out but on the same hand there is a lot more to tune IMO. but i think this could also go back and forth and there is no better / wors way really up to each person. in my case i would like to do a comp one day but not right now.

[*urban_ninja*]

and in fantapants case yes you have the comp already so forget what i said earliear as it has no value. i did not see that I would deff get it retuned in his case than run the risk of BOOM

[Sam-Q]

yeah ok I get you but still your playing with fire as no-one had posted if it can be done with a stock ecu, unless you want to run water injection

[shelldrake]

It be great to hear from some people who have built 7ages with 20v heads...

[*urban_ninja*]

or any one that has built one and all of its needs and so on

[mildseven]

yeah ok I get you but still your playing with fire as no-one had posted if it can be done with a stock ecu, unless you want to run water injection

for fantapants: you can use 1.2 mm TRD head gasket. it should keep your compression below 12, if your head not skimmed.
but a friend of mine with 7age20v silvertop use octane 95 for daily driving.

[Sam-Q]

going thicker in a head gasket is not a good idea as it compramises the efficiency of your quench zones. Translation: makes combustion worse

[sun_moon]

Other things I'll be doing with the engine are - 7AFE block but still use a 4AGE crankshaft because that lets me run longer con-rods, (The 7AFE block is taller than the 4AGE) which reduces frictional losses and increase piston dwell time at TDC. Yes, they will weigh more than a shorter rod but I'll be getting the new ones made up at PAR Engineering in Sydney, though the weight will be largely offset as they're titanium.

from billsherwood starlet page.

thoughts about 4age crank

[Delazy]

from billsherwood starlet page.

thoughts about 4age crank

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

[starni_boy]

Yes^
I have a 7a crank here, and a 4a crank. Quite different when they are side by side. I've shown Sam_Q these said pics.

Custom rods are a must.

[sun_moon]

starni boy, so definetly use custom rods ?

also can u post those crank pics when u have time? thanks

[70XIN]

Definitely custom rods. Argo and such can make them if you have fairly deep pockets :)

[Delazy]

Definitely custom rods. Argo and such can make them if you have fairly deep pockets :)

argo rods off the shelf are over 1k, id hate to know how much a custom set are :s