Dry sump setup

[Jonny Rochester]

Let us discuss making a dry sump setup for a 4A-GE or similar.

I will be working on a 4A-GE N/A, and the dry sump "sump" is already made from aluminium. No fittings have been welded to it yet.

Obviously I start to look at some Formula Atlantic setups. They are not all the same. I also can look at the TRD Levin Bible, in the N2 section.

The TRD oil pump in the bible looks to be one piece designed for the application, and I doubt I would ever find it. There are many other oil pump suppliers on the net now, and they seem to make a segmented universal pump. You choose how many stages you want the pump to have.

Some setups on 4A-G's have the oil pump on the left, some on the right. Some also use a vacuum pump? And it seams the Formula cars do not run an alternator?

[Jonny Rochester]

I guess the first think is to draw a plan, and decide how many stages I need the pump to have, then buy the pump. Then decide on the pumps RPM range and design the sprocket sizes. Then decide on a style of belt and drive.

Any ideas? Pictures?

[slide86]

I got one half decent pic of a nice 4ag setup.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/5/32590.jpg

you can see the pump and some of the line setups.....not sure how helpful this pic will be, but it looks good :)

i also have HEAPS of 4age tuning mags.....ill have a look and see if there is anything worth scanning......

[Evocom]

I believe zoom magazine did a tech article on dry sump setups not long ago [maybe when they went to the name BOOST] about 4 or 5 months ago. ill try and dig up the issue if you are interested so i can give you the issue number. was quite a good article and they also did another in the same issue on DIY dry sump setups with the demonstration engine being a N/A 4age if i remember correctly.

[fantapants]

billzilla also has a good article floating around on a 4a specific drysump setup using more financially appropriate pieces :)

[Anthony]

a lot of cheaper setups retain the original pump as the pressure pump. you can plumb into it by removing some bungs out of the side of the pump etc. they then use a two stage external pumpo for scavenge from the front and rear of the pan.

[squeak]

Jonny, have spent most of today researching this topic, most parts can be sourced here in aust , bdg in west aust make a very good pump , but can only run to 4500 rpm , speedracersportscars in syd have the sump as used on PRB clubman cars , so it is all here in Aust only the cost may be $$$$$ for some .

I have been contemplating a high rpm 4age for some time know and this is one of the last hurdles to cross.

The fact that the bdg pump can only run at 4500 is no problem as most dry sump pumps run at half engine speed.

peter k

[Jonny Rochester]

I was thinking of having it at exactly half engine speed, like the camshafts. Infact I was thinking of using a camshaft sprocket on the pump, and a second timing belt sprocket on the crank. Then using a regular timing belt, maybe shorter. But if a short T belt wasn't found, I will have to use the engineering standard belts that are used for these things.

Does anyone know about what is the best belt standard to use?

[lo_rolla]

Lads, I know I should know this... You know, engine reconditioner and all, but I've never worked in performance (I've done the machining, not full builds).
But I'm building a CBY 5.5AGE with TODA head, oversize valves and 304degree cams with 11mm lift with the ami of 220+hp at around 10,000rpm, should I be looking at a dry sump set up?

[resol]

dry sumps are sick! dont forget crank scrappers either.

im slowly researching this for my NA sr20 build. formula 3000 cars run dry sump (as do most top level race cars).

when im less tired i will post up some info i have collected.


-dan

[Gunner]

I have a blank 20v pan if any one wants it.

[Eircamae86]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34091.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/8/5/32604.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/8/5/31552.jpg

[slide86]

try looking for the timing belt from a mitsubishi express van BALANCE SHAFT. that toothed belt is quite short and i think it will suit this type of application well

[Eircamae86]

Where did the discussion part of this thread go :yeah:
Worthy topic

[slydar]

Lads, I know I should know this... You know, engine reconditioner and all, but I've never worked in performance (I've done the machining, not full builds).
But I'm building a CBY 5.5AGE with TODA head, oversize valves and 304degree cams with 11mm lift with the ami of 220+hp at around 10,000rpm, should I be looking at a dry sump set up?

standard pump is meant to be a liability at anything over 9000 rpm. you will come across this as being the safe limit from a lot of sources if you read up.

[slydar]

u.s ebay sometimes has nice pumps and decent prices. ex big name race engine parts with not a lot of hours.

there are also websites with a lot of NASCAR and speedway 2nd hand stuff. even some u.s online speed shops have 2nd hand pumps.

i think id be pretty ok with a high quality 2nd hand pump. especially if i could get tolerances from somewhere. theyre pretty simple inside so easy to check over.

alot of their engines are worth 50K+ so it seems like its somewhat common practice for them to replace oil pumps fairly regularly for no other reason that to "be on the safe side".

the tanks are around too. 2nd hand again would be fine. theyre pretty complex inside also, not really just a tank..

basically i guess all im saying is i'd be looking to the u.s for good 2nd hand parts if i were doing a dry sump set up.

as for fittings and line. id buy u.s mail order as well. unless you can get friendly with some one with an account at one of the larger speedflow re sellers in Australia. anywhere near retail in oz in ridiculous.

[shift_rook]

i'll try and get my scanner working and dump the zoom article here

[chrisjjanfd3s]

Hey guys, i work for a company that deals almost exclusively with hydraulic systems, if anyone is seriously interested in dry sumping their 4AGE I can help the get all the necessary pumps hoses and fittings at a reasonable price.

BTW I don’t thing that you need and expensive 3 stage pump for a basic dry sump setup. You could get away with using a simpler pump, this would mean you would mean running less line ( which is cheaper and less prone to failure).
I’m a big fan of dry sumps for the following reasons:
. More power as there isn’t as much paralastic drag caused by the oil in your sump hitting the crank
. Less chance of the oil becoming aerated buy the crankshaft sloshing it around (I have heard of race car engines failing because of this)
. You can carry far more oil as you are keeping it in a remote reservoir.
. Since you carry more oil it will be cleaner and cooler
.You can balance the weight of your car better as you can lower the engine more (because the sump is almost flat), and you can chose where you want to mount the remote reservoir.

[hachi_dk]

^^ rough estimate on a basic dry sump set up would be around how much?

[chrisjjanfd3s]

Its pretty hard to give you even a rough guesstimate. It all depends on how much I can get a pump for, how much oil you want to carry, what lines line you want to run, if you want to remount your engine to take advantage of your shallow sump ect ect.

Bear in mind that theres quite abit of custom work that you need to do. Mainly a custom sump, remote reservoir for your oil and mounting and powering your scavenger pump (usually belt driven). If you can do heaps of the work your self id say you could do it pretty cheap.

Id say that about $500 enough for some basic 2 wire rubber lines and a scavenger pump. This is far from a complete setup though, you still need the other fiddly custom stuff. If you could do it all your self or if you have an army of slaves i reckon you could do it for about $1000 all up. Thats for a basic setup with out getting caught up in adodised fittings and shiny braded stuff.

[Rip it]

Its pretty hard to give you even a rough guesstimate. It all depends on how much I can get a pump for, how much oil you want to carry, what lines line you want to run, if you want to remount your engine to take advantage of your shallow sump ect ect.

Bear in mind that theres quite abit of custom work that you need to do. Mainly a custom sump, remote reservoir for your oil and mounting and powering your scavenger pump (usually belt driven). If you can do heaps of the work your self id say you could do it pretty cheap.

Id say that about $500 enough for some basic 2 wire rubber lines and a scavenger pump. This is far from a complete setup though, you still need the other fiddly custom stuff. If you could do it all your self or if you have an army of slaves i reckon you could do it for about $1000 all up. Thats for a basic setup with out getting caught up in adodised fittings and shiny braded stuff.

I would like to see how much you could just supply a pump, not high pressure as I' still going to use the original oil pump for that, so just a 2 stage scavenger pump. If possible.
Those pumps from WA are BLOODY expensive, they look the goods though and come with a good reputation.
Johny: Do you have one of the sumps that Aaron and I made? I'll post some pictures up.

[Sam-Q]

I hear that running a dry sump also gains power by causing a crankcase vacuum and hence better ring sealing.

[fantapants]

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=15804

a good bit of info in here :)

[slydar]

bill is an idiot. do not take his info as gospel.

[Sam-Q]

bold statement. I don't personally believe in taking anyones word as gospel. Anything in particular you don't like about that article?

[fantapants]

yeah i know what you mean slydr, BUT not too sure what wouldnt work in that article?

just curious about the drysumping and went looking ages ago, stumbled on that and there was a lot of good info from him and others :)

but yeah gospel gets you in trouble a lot :)

[Celica RA45]

with running a dry sump set up be prepared to gain some weight like 30 kilos all up over the std system
dry sump pump 3 stage minium 1200 aussie plus tank 650 plus lines 1200 with fittings plus oil cooler as pump makes more heat through suction etc all up with pan look at 5000 grand minium
im still using a wet sump set up on my 3sge and im always pushing about 1.5 Gs through the corners on race tracks and 1 ,2 under brakes with no oil surge

[chrisjjanfd3s]

Hey guys sorry about the slow reply :)

Haven’t had time to get a price on a pump. Those hose and fittings sound very expensive if any one needs hose and fittings (PM me if you need hose and fittings, I can get you a pretty good price) ill try to get a price on a pump tomorrow.

I don’t think it would cost 5g though. We've done a few dry sump setups at work I cant remember any of them costing $5000 even though we charge $80 an hour labor.

[Gunner]

No celica ra45 is pretty spot on. And $80 an hour is pretty cheap.

Remember, this is your engines oil supply, its not something you want to skimp on, or try and dodge up using random scavenge pumps or cheap lines.

I wouldn't be risking my new big $$$ engine to save a few bucks on a dry sump system.

[s14seriesII]

4 stage pump, tank and lines, budget around 3g all up, seriously thinking bout it on my car..

[Gunner]

sump pan, idler gears, brackets, thermostats?

[s14seriesII]

yes


apparently i need more words in my reply

[squeak]

Had a talk to Chris at sport racers (clubman racers) and his reply was that his dry sump kit costs $2800 inc GST and another $600 for fittings and filters , his sump is for both 20 and 16 valve blocks,and can be mounted on either side and still retain air con or driven by single row pulley.

peter

[nzae86]

[QUOTE=Eircamae86;196339]http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34091.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/8/5/32604.jpg

Hi all, these photos are of my setup , I think you need to budget about $5 -8000 NZD from start to finish, the sump and pump are the cheap parts , the braided line and earls fittings to do it all properly make up a good part of the cost.You can try using inexpensive hose but when your scavenge line collapses and starves your engine of oil the correct way of plumbing will all of a sudden look very cheap! There are no short cuts.I have more photos of my set up but the link to my build is here
http://www.aeu86.org/viewtopic/nzae86s-trd-ae86-n2-race-car--project-2/t/6171/start=0
any questions just ask

[kaibeecee]

thats a good setup. ^

3 stage pump & billet pan?

[Rice86]

what a build nzae86, cant believe ive never seen your build thread before...

[nzae86]

Here's some photos that may help showing the lay out.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34160.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34161.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34162.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34163.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34164.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34165.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/1/3/1/34166.jpg

As you can see not a cheap five second job to dry sump.
Don't forget the oil tank need to be able to take care of oil aeration as well

[Jonny Rochester]

nzae86: That is an awesome build, and probably the neatest AE86 in the southern hemisphere. I had seen it over on AEU86.

You also have a rally AE86 for Targa NZ I think? I guess that car does not have the dry sump?

Are you able to list what belts and sprockets you have used. Do you use the stock oil pump in any way? If someone was to buy a pump the same as yours, what are the specs?

[Frak]

bill is an idiot. do not take his info as gospel.

+1 with this comment

[nzae86]

nzae86: That is an awesome build, and probably the neatest AE86 in the southern hemisphere. I had seen it over on AEU86.

You also have a rally AE86 for Targa NZ I think? I guess that car does not have the dry sump?

Are you able to list what belts and sprockets you have used. Do you use the stock oil pump in any way? If someone was to buy a pump the same as yours, what are the specs?

Hi thanks for the favorable comments, it is getting close to start up soon.
Yes you are correct I do have a Tarmac rally car as well and it is still wet sumped. I have added extra volume to the standard sump with gates that allow oil to flow towards the pick up under hard cornering and braking , here's a pic (it's looking a bit dirty underneath at the moment!)
http://img709.imageshack.us/img709/3357/img0308p.jpg
I have just had my rally car on the new Hampton Downs circuit (which has claimed a few engines due to oil issues) and the oil pressure was as steady as a rock all day .

The dry sump set up uses nothing but the housing from the old oil pump , in fact there is a billet front housing available but haven't managed to get one as yet.The motor I have is straight from an Atlantic race car so this is what they used.
I have changed pumps and position to run this in an ae86 as the Atlantic's ran the oil pump on the right side of the engine with no alternator.I have used a 3 stage Barnes pump as per the N2 cars and mounted it on the left. As you may figure from the pictures the pump has 2 scavenge lines , so half the oil is pumped through the oil cooler and the other half goes straight back to the tank . This is a way of being able to run the large volume of oil at the correct temperature.
I myself wouldn't consider a dry sump set up unless you are building an all out race motor that will rev past 8700 -10000 revs ,(or have a large pile of drug money you need to spend!) but to do this the whole engine needs to be built to handle these revs as it opens up a complete set of other issues as well.
And I would be careful of some of the info that is available on the net .The best is to talk to as many people that have actually run dry sump set ups in real life and make your own judgment from there .

[Tim.duncan]

any inside picks of the modified wet sump in the pic?

[nzae86]

any inside picks of the modified wet sump in the pic?
Sorry I never got around to taking any , got to have some top secret bits !:)
It is all pretty simple really , just stick to basics and don't introduce too much oil at once, I think the total volume is about 7 litres.