Liquid Propane Gas Injection

[sundee]

This link has a clubman with a sivertop 20v with 110Kw in stock form running a Motec ECU

http://www.gas-injection.com/news-lpg-gas-injection-technologies.html#link3

I have an 80 series Landcruiser on gas - and the performance difference between fuel and gas is great! more responsive throttle, smoother running and smoother power delivery and greater fuel economy.

this is just your typical defuser type mounted before the throttle butterfly.

seeing the performance and significantly lesser running costs on LPG
ive been tossing up converting my 20v to direct injection LPG.

Discuss...

one thing to consider in a drift/Track application would be fuel surge.

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

I have heard a lot of good things about gas from people who have played with it a fair bit on performance stuff, great knock prevention, cheap, can cool the charge... The down side as I see it is the hassle getting it all in and working. New tank, lines, lockoff solenoids and stuff, injectors, fuel rail setup, regulator, etc, etc.

Not insurmountable, but not as easily available as petrol bits.

Hen

[slide86]

when i was working.......(lol) we were a licensed agent to fit these to new commodores (i worked at a dealer)

they are a very neat system to fit and we simply drilled holes in the inlet runners and fit a nozzle for the injectors that way. the injector is actually remote mounted. we used brass fuel lines in the engine bay for the heat and fire retardant properties.

also, the tuning is much more precise, the holden system uses a piggy back computer that splices into the genuine loom, so it uses all the factory sensors and even the o2 sensors for mixture correction. much better fuel economy....and id say that the potential for power increase is good, specially with forced inducition tuning.

[lolwat]

from what i have heard from work (we do a lot of LPG conversions) LPG is just getting better and better (eg like already said piggy back Computers to tune it, makes it so easy to do)
Better performance, burns cleaner, oil remains cleaner for longed(good for turbs etcetc)
And
Best of all it is so cheap compared to Diesel or petrol

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

LPG is 104 ron

e85 107 ron

lpg is good.... but why bother when you can have 3 more ocanes :)



i run e85 in my r33 and i get 284 rwkw on pulp and 323 on e85


a mate ran a 180 on direct injection lpg, made 230rwkw, went well

[.ady]

from my experience over heating problems? my old mates ae82 with lpg, i can barely drive it in 30 degree whether it gets soo hot i need to pull over every few mintues to let it koool down. fixed the thermo and the twin thermo fans and still getting over heating problems....switch over to petrol its fine no problems at all and its only 20 bucks for a full tank which is ballin!

[sundee]

Ady can bet that the mixture is not correct -with LPG even if the mixture is ritch it will cause the engine to run hot - the bad running isnt becasue of the LPG it more likley to be a bad system fitted and in need of a tune.

my landcruiser runs sweet even when towing in the middle of summer! :))

[sundee]

LPG is 104 ron

e85 107 ron

lpg is good.... but why bother when you can have 3 more ocanes :)



i run e85 in my r33 and i get 284 rwkw on pulp and 323 on e85


a mate ran a 180 on direct injection lpg, made 230rwkw, went well

Where abouts do you get E85 from - thats the 85% ethenol mix right?
whats its cost / Litre

[Tim.duncan]

from what i have heard a straight gas setup is the way to go not duel fuel. rip the fuel tank out fit the gas tank in there.

apparently gas loves high compression, would be cool to see a gas dedicated 20v running stuppid compression.

my bro had a 5ltr in a old wb statesman and he had is rebuilt with a "gas" cam. im under the impression that the cam grind needs to be differrent to gain the most out of a gas conversion.

certenly would be different and i think would be a cool project.

[KENut]

I have never dealt with an injection system, although I've only heard good things about them.
My old holden had a straight gas system, ran perfectly, never missing a beat, even though it had sat around for over 6 years. Did get reasonably hot compared to the petrol engine in there now, but never overheated.

My dad had a 350 with a straight gas system; at first it used the original Rochester, which was crap. Replaced with dedicated LPG carby, and runs much better. This motor, and the new 383 (in the same vehicle) runs very hot.
Also, sometimes in winter the coolant lines will freeze over, and the engine wont run.

Dad also has a dual system on a Landcruiser, which is great for long range. Doesn't run immaculately as its used for both LPG and petrol.

With these older style systems the economy is not great, less than 300 kms per tank (dont know size) for the 383.

Injection style from what Ive heard is all what Sundee says; smooth, powerful, and much more economical

[.ady]

Ady can bet that the mixture is not correct -with LPG even if the mixture is ritch it will cause the engine to run hot - the bad running isnt becasue of the LPG it more likley to be a bad system fitted and in need of a tune.

my landcruiser runs sweet even when towing in the middle of summer! :))

oh really? ill get that looked at then....my sprinter is emptying my pockets with parts and fuel :( feels so shit compared to lpg 20 bucks and its a full tank aproxx 450-500km for a full tank. so gay wen i pour ultimate it cost like 40-50? for a full tank with a few squirts and skids and ive got a 4.3 so the reading is 10% off the odo so im not getting that much :(

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

i get e85 from the pump @ 2 locations, hoppers xing and southland... in vic tho... only places its available... you are in syd yeah? united rozelle is where its at.

all temps run cooler on ethanol

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

also:

dedicated gas = win
duel fuel = fail... hard

ethanol is 109c @ fueltown southland, and you chew through it 30% faster than 98, so @ 323rwkw i get just on 200k's to a 50lt tank...

this also means that your fuel system needs to be able to support the extra flow...

for the 350rwkw that my car can support (kept the tune at the point of diminishing return, so 323rwkw) i needed 6 x 555cc injectors, 480lt/h nismo fuel pump, and that was pretty much it...

[sundee]

ive been doing some reading on LPG and how it actually reacts - with the inline defuser type systems its just like tuning a carb with a wind in needle and seat... if the mixture is either side of stoich it will cause the engine to run hot. i found that very interesting -- also the older cheap systems and the poorly designed systems cause faults like KEnut describes.

my 80 series landcruiser runs dual fuel - it starts itself on fuel then seconds later is switches to straight gas. it starts 1st time every time - in the winter and the summer - it never misses a beat - the engine is the 1FZ-FE 4500 petrol - and the tank takes around 87L of gas - cost me around 45 - 48 bux depeding on price and i get 415 Km out of a tank in city driving.

im really thinking about converting my 20v turbo to injected gas... deck the head and use a .8mm HG or the like to get the compression up their.. because gas loves compression - the 1HD turbo landcruisers run 18:1 compression and love the gas.

i read that E85 is around $1.20 - $1.30/L but it requires about 30 -40% more fuel to get optimum mixtures - Gas does require about 15 - 25% more but its less then half the cost... so although with E85 you get the power and its great at surpressing detonation - it still costs more and the efficency isnt their like gas is..


The next thing i need to figure out is if an injected gas system can be run on your average stand alone ECU. or if it needs a specific system to run....

[joeyjoejoejuniorshabadoo]

i never use power and economy in the same sentence ;)

[lolwat]

we run a Crewman X8 using LPG injection and we just used a piggy back computer for LPG like normal

I imagine that you would be able to run it off most standard ECU's otherwise people arent going to want to spent all the money to do it



i never use power and economy in the same sentence ;)
:DD

[redsprinter]

Sundee . if going a 20v i assume it will be aftermarket standalone ecu that will run the show like 90% of the 20v ae86s... so you would be sweet in that area. keep us posted i thought about this ages ago too. but never got around to doing the research .

question : what is the difference between gas tank size + weight vs normal efi 4age tank size+ weight ?

i assume the gas one will be alot heavier and bulkier.

[lolwat]

question : what is the difference between gas tank size + weight vs normal efi 4age tank size+ weight ?

i assume the gas one will be alot heavier and bulkier.

to be honest Gas Tanks Aren't really that heavy despite what people think(obviously depends on size) but most tanks for shitboxs(eg falcons and commos etc etc) there not really that heavy and if you cut your fual tank and so one out, there wouldn't be a HUGE!!!!!!!!!!!! difference, the the LPG will weigh more (this is empty btw)
but when full, i am sure (dont quote me on this) a full tank of gas is lighter then a full tank of petrol

[Sam-Q]

LPG is 100RON unless the mix has been changed again, also I hear from reliable sources that the people doing LPG injection are getting no better results than the guys who are using a gas research carby.

ALso this is going to be moved to the tech section

[KE70]

also:
dedicated gas = win
duel fuel = fail... hard

Its the same thing these days, Dual fuel means your car starts up first time instead of cranking it ages with gas only. For an everyday car dual fuel is the best, there will be no advantage going with LPG only.


LPG is 100RON unless the mix has been changed again, also I hear from reliable sources that the people doing LPG injection are getting no better results than the guys who are using a gas research carby.
ALso this is going to be moved to the tech section
Come on Sam, carby over injected we all know which is better.

There are two types of injected systems, vapour and liquid injection.

Vapour returns pretty good economy at not much power loss(hardly notice it), people claim about 10-15% increase in economy over petrol which is better then the 30% plus over a LPG carby setup. This is when the LPG is converted to a gas in the converter and is injected as a gas to each intake runner(close to the existing petrol injector).

Liquid injection is where it is at, you will not lose any power and in most cases gain a few KWs over your petrol setup. An XR6 turbo gained as much as 15RWks over standard and a BF GT gained 9rwks. This is without any tuning because the LPG injectors use the petrol ECU pulses to fire, the gain in power comes from lower intake temps because the LPG forms to a gas right when its fired and not at the converter like the old systems. When LPG converts to a gas from a liquid there is a temperature drop, that's why the old school converters froze up if they had low coolant flow.

For our corollas keep them petrol only as the added weight of the LPG setup would probably diminish the power gain, if any. Maybe for a turbo setup it could be worth it as the added weight would not be that noticeable.

I have an AU daily that I have on LPG, its pretty good even being the old carby type setup. there is a definite power loss but the low running costs make it worth while.

[sundee]

its funny you say that with your Au daily their is a definate power loss, because with my 80 series landcruiser their is a definate power gain, it has the inline defuser.

[KE70]

Well there is a definate tourque gain in the lower revs and its pretty good for everyday driving just up top it runs out of puff, I guess the increased gas that is put in the intake competes with the air that is needed for spark.
Also the stupid carby mixer hampers air flow when running on petrol only.

[sundee]

yeah id pay all that.