12a ke70

[stx-16]

yes? or no?
pros and cons

please no shit talk just want to find some info

[marvis]

Why would you bother?

[stx-16]

well i just want to do something other a 4age like every other 12year old on here

[marvis]

Whats wrong with a 4age? It's a proven win.

Could do 7age too. I just don't think all the work would be worth it.

[sundee]

if its your cup of tea then go for it - rotor's love to catch fire!
just bear in mind that an NA rotor makes about half the torque of a piston engine in the same capacity - an for it to make any power its going to be way loud - porting, exhaust / intake will easily smash 100db
turbo would be good.

nothing really different to any other engine conversion. all mounts custom - tail shaft etc.

[stx-16]

well it was just a thort from the weekend
one of my friends took me for a drive in his 287hp 13b turbo fc it was amazing but yeah it was stupidly loud and iv been doing some research on 7age's i think i might go that way

what are 4agze's like in n/a format??
i havent seen many if any one has one can you link me to there duild thread

[sundee]

GZE in na = Rubbish - comp is way to low - they need to have forced induction of some sort. why gze non turbo? are u on your p's? just go NA 16 v or 20 v

[stx-16]

yeah p's
was just thinking gze iv been told there heaps stronger but i guess i could probly get the stronger parts off a gze and put them in a smallport and one of my mates has a gze ae82

[Frak]

Years ago, my brother and myself put a 13B turbo into an AE86, it was GREAT fun, ran a 12.5 at the drags, cheap, easy and FAST. We used a Haltec fuel only ecu, 12A turbo distributor and front cover(distributor has retard on boost function) it cost bugger all and went fast.

Sundee86 I disagree with the NA rotor making about half the torque of a piston engine in the SAME capacity, as you would know a 12A is roughly 1.2litre SWEPT DISPLACEMENT and a 13B 1.3 litres. They make MUCH more torque than an engine of the SAME capacity, hence the greater output compared to engines of the same capacity.

My background is actually rotors, I use to build lots of em back in the late 80's early 90's, mainly NA, BP's and PP's, alot went to Sports Sedans, they deliver a very flat torque curve over a HUGE rev range.

Alot of people bag ported rotors saying they have to idle at say 2000rpm this is also crap, and to me is a rotor not set up correctly. My daily back then was an RX3 coupe with a 13B PP, even on a weber carb(later autronic efi) it idled at 800rpm! alot of people couldn't believe it was PP! and it would pull hard thru to the high 10's, I usually used around 10,300rpm. It made about 180ftlb of torque at about 9500rpm(long time ago, trying to remember) with this 180ftlb of torque over a VERY large rev range an NA 4age would not even get close!

I remember once I was in a petrol station putting fuel in the RX3(this use to happen on a VERY regular basis ;) ) any way another RX3 pulls in romping(term we use to use for lumpy idle) it's arse off, any way the guy hears mine and after filling up he comes over and asks what I'm running (he said he was running a monster) he says it sounds like a small bridge(due to the low idle speed) I said "No mate it's a PP", he says "sure it is, do you know what a PP is?"
I reply "I hope so, I machined the housings and built the engine", his jaw drops as I open the bonnet, sure enough it's PP, he asked how I got it to idle so well, I told him that the weber IDA is a very adjustable carb and not many people really know how to set them up right.

If you want to go a rotor, why not, I would go a rotor over say an SR anyday, I like the way a rotor hits(especially a turbo one).

[stx-16]

yeah but ill be going for a na and cheap and from what iv seen/heard cheap rotor isent going to happen

[chrisjjanfd3s]

If you can do all the fab work your self it will work out heaps cheaper than a 4AGE conversion because you wont have to worry about all the EFI gear. And trust me a 12A will have alot more torque than a 1.2 piston engine. If its a weekend car id recomend going for an engine with some pretty agressive ports (PP or BP).

Oh and the whole reliability thing is BS. If you take care of your engine it will take care of you. People always complain about reliability, but I've got a 300BHP 13BTT it will easily last 100,000 KMs id like to see how many people have done that with a 4AGTE :)

[Frak]

Right on Chrisjjanfd3s :thumbup:

I personally would go a 13B if it were NA though, the slight difference in capacity is very noticable.

[sundee]

Thanks for clearing that up Frak - i thought that was the case. impressive
ive been for a spin in a mazda101 (i think) had a 13b BP went well just didint seem to have much pull

[Frak]

No probs, alot has to do with the intake system, if it's an old school engine and still running the nikki 4 barrel, doesn't matter what port job you do, you'll be hard pressed to put out over 150bhp flywheel.

the nikki flows around 300cfm of air. We have found on the dyno that a rotor needs around 2cfm of air to make 1hp where as something like an sr20 will do 1hp from 1cfm of air. We measure air usage on the engine dyno.

another short story, many years ago, I build a 13B monster port for my brothers R100, he puts a weber IDA on, as you may or may not know, weber carbs come pre-jetted for the engine they were originally designed for, the 48IDA was originally used on a Porsche called a 904(twas a race car) and comes fitted with 37mm chokes(venturi's) anyway after building the engine etc I tell him he'll need atleast 42mm chokes to make grunt, he can't see how a few mm's can make a big difference.

Anyway he drives the car around, complains it has no grunt and basically insinuates I did a crap engine, eventually I talk him into getting some bigger chokes, he got a couple of 44mm's, I put some 220 mains(from memory) he went out and it was a completely different car, he come back shaking!

If you have an a rotor ya gotta let em breathe.

I have found on the dyno a twin system(for aslong as you can) is best for horsepower. I had a student who had a series 3 rx7 years ago, all stock, we dyno, crap hp, I tell him to get long primary twin system, he's only young, doesn't really understand what I mean, any way he got an exhaust/headers for it but short primary, on dyno, not much better, anyway after months of hassling him, he gets a long primary twin system, back on dyno, MASSIVE gains.

[Tim.duncan]

a rotor owner once told me there is only 9 moving parts in one.

Frak I know you love 20v's how do they compare to rotories?

[ke70dave]

rotor=awesome

over the years ive been helping my mate with his 12a in a series 1? rx7

started off just a rebuild standard, i think it made like 100hp at wheels. (carby still)

next came efi, some sort of hybrid 13B injector setup, staged injectors. all run off a megasquirt. road tuned by us in the backstreets.

then about 1yr ago, we put a little 13B hairdryer one the side, still standard 12a specs. and this thing absolutly hauls ass. hes got a 13.2 i think at the drags, thats just king springs and semi slick tyres. we arent sure how long the apex seals are gonna last, but hopefully a bit longer. thats only on 7psi as well.

ive had a drive of it, and the response is absolutely insane, and forget about torque issues, plenty of that. the turbo at the moment is actually a tad small, starts losing boost at 7k or so. getting a bigger turbo soon, to keep the air coming at 9k+

they are fidly engines though, gota know what your doing, im not really that up on them, i just help out where i can. my mate has a really nice setup, has all the decent parts to make it reliable. its his daily driver too.

in short, if i had the money/time/room id have a 12a turbo (13b is illegal) in my ke70. even standard 12A efi was awesome, without turbo. the standard carby is a bit of junk from what ive been told.

oh and if your p plate, forget about any of this being legal. unfortunately your stuck with k motors for a few years.

[Frak]

Tim, 9 moving parts, depends if you count all the seals/apexes etc as seperate;

Your typical 2 rotor.
2 x rotors
12 x parts for apexseals for 2 piece
18 x parts for apex seals for 3 piece
6 or 12 x apex seal springs
12 x corner seals
12 x corner seal springs
8 x oil control rings
8 x oil control ring o-rings
12 x side seals(24 if twin dist engine, really old tho)
12 x side seal springs
1 x eccentric shaft
1 x front balance weight

there are a few more, but you get the idea, a few more parts than people think.

Tim, completely standard, say comparing a stock series 3 rx7 against my ae111, i'd take the ae111 as I know for a fact the engine puts out a heap more power.
modified, and I wouldn't bother with a 12a so would be 13b, but port job, weber/efi, headers/exhaust, i'd take the rotor any day as it will have alot more grunt.

[Frak]

Tim, try and get out to an IPRA meet at Mallala, there is a local guy named James Sutton, who runs a Bridgeported, quad throttle,autronic 13B in his R100, it is VERY fast, I think he's doing 1.16.00, and mixes it with the turbo boys all the time, this engine makes over 200rwkw!!!!! and it's NA! He has to rev it, but hey that's part of the fun of having a rotor....10,000+ rpm :wub:

[Tim.duncan]

ill try and check it out sounds pretty crazy!
i have only been in one rotor powered car, 13b turbo rx7 series 4 i think?? to be honest i was not very impressed not sure if it had any mods or not? i would like a drive of one just to see what they are really like. 10000rpm does sound like fun.

i used to be a real muscle car v8 head when i was younger and always payed out rotories now i drive a 1.6! and am intriged with the small rotory ha ha how things can change

[chrisjjanfd3s]

Yeah rotaries are good :) I know of a few guys running 11 second quarters with 12APP's

BTW Frak tour old daily sounds insane !!! i would love an RX3 coupe. My DD is a RX7 series 8 Bathurst R, its quite nice but has woeful fuel consumption (about 20l/100km when I granny it)

[stx-16]

im in nsw i can have anything i want as long as its not turbo, v8 or charged

[Frak]

When I use to sprint my RX3 when it was on the carb it use to get around 48-55ltr/100km!!!! But it was all worth it for that one big rev :)

I'll see if I can dig some old pics of it up. I had it from the mid 80's to the early 90's it was quite modified, with coil overs, 4 piston calipers, had a cut down Borgwarner out of an XF falcon with 4.88 diff gears, the 4 speed had a set of holinger gears in it.

If you live in Adelaide it still gets around on the rotor cruises, but less alot of stuff I had on it, like brand new Savanna tail lights, the rims etc were sold interstate, it was a gun metal grey colour.

[redsprinter]

im in nsw i can have anything i want as long as its not turbo, v8 or charged

depending if your under the old law or the new p-plate law.

old one yes . but new one no, you cant have any mods on your car. but the only reason why we (ae86 & ae71) owners can get away with it because on our rego paper the 4ac and 4age share the first two engine letters. so therefore not many rta officers or popo bother checking.

[Tim.duncan]

[QUOTE=Frak;205873]When I use to sprint my RX3 when it was on the carb it use to get around 48-55ltr/100km!!!! But it was all worth it for that one big rev :)QUOTE]

WHAT!!! that is just silly, what were you useing for a carby a bucket with a hole in it??

seen a few pics of said car, very clean!! i like it

[Kid Karola]

Tim, try and get out to an IPRA meet at Mallala, there is a local guy named James Sutton, who runs a Bridgeported, quad throttle,autronic 13B in his R100, it is VERY fast, I think he's doing 1.16.00, and mixes it with the turbo boys all the time, this engine makes over 200rwkw!!!!! and it's NA! He has to rev it, but hey that's part of the fun of having a rotor....10,000+ rpm :wub:

http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7640/r100vl3.jpg

Here he is leading the field away at 2008 State round (The Bluebird is SR20det?) Very close right to the flag!

WuKzFK2FzZE
RjC7w8dapdU
0wC-U8TCBdU

Also there's John Sharp's 20V KE25 in there too (Charged on the forums).

[sundee]

just do it

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvPfi-ZeQRM

[Tim.duncan]

ha ha cheers karl, i love this kid!

your like the multi media guru, if KK does not have it, its not worth looking at.

i

[Frak]

ha ha cheers karl, i love this kid!

your like the multi media guru, if KK does not have it, its not worth looking at.



You should see Karl's collection of midget amputee porn ;)

[pen15]

im in nsw i can have anything i want as long as its not turbo, v8 or charged

infact that is incorrect you can not drive anything basically if you put a set of extractors on a 4kc in your ke70 that isn't legal for you to drive the law is extended to modified vehicles not just a v8 turbo or supercharged

you can not even drive an "m" series bmw or a Porsche check the laws dude i know i just got off my p's it sucks ill try find the link to the rta page where it states it

[stx-16]

im under the old law so stfu

[Kid Karola]

I don't think it matters when you got your licence, law is LAW.

ps. Ja I got some sick scandønavian stuff that is too hot for the intærvebs :hehe:
On the side note to Tim - IP racing is always entertaining to watch. I try and get out there as often as I can. The guys are a good lot as well :thumbup:
you should check it out.

[Golberg]

It mattered for a little while when you got your licence.

But there is no way you can be on the old regulations, they changed it too long ago now. I mean I'm on the new regulations and I've only got 2 months to go until blacks.

As pen15 said, legally you can't run anything. You cant change anything about your engine. That said, it hasn't stopped myself from putting a 4AGE into my AE71. This is about the least testing of the law, mine is not engineered, but the engine no is on the rego papers through the process of a blue slip, which according to the RTA's guidelines is legit. The same doesn't apply for a KE70 though, its too big a capacity increase.

The reality is, you are seriously kidding yourself if you think an 12A is going to be legal for you to drive.

Remember, nothing is legal, bend over and be reamed.