Beams 3S oil Pump and firewall clearences

[Andy San]

Quick query regarding the setup of the oil pumps on the 3s beams motor.

Is the oil pump contained to a seperate piece on the front of the engine? such as a 4age? or does it extend down into the big aluminium cast section on the lower part of the engine?

Trying to work out how much space can be gained from making a dry sump pan for one of these, and if you can remove the whole aluminium cast section from the bottom or if you can only make a new sump pan to bolt to it that is more shallow.

8711

found this picture, which is off a 3sge, but im not sure which gen it is, as the sump castings from the earlier generations are different.

i'm hoping this is off a beams, as it would make it much easier to fit into the engine bay, and hopefully solve my clearance issues that i can foresee happening.

[ke_70]

sump clearence with ground?

[Andy San]

sump clearance with ground, crossmember, but also the little extension on the front of the motors which comes very close to the swaybar, if you can get rid of all of that there is loads of room.

[Sam-Q]

you might want to look into using a 2S sump and pickup

[ke_70]

mod the tunnel possably so it sits back further? this is how im clearing the swaybar.
how do jays mounts clear the crossmember? but this doesnt help ground clearence suppose you dont want to run a bash plate?

[Sam-Q]

you can use countersunk bolts on that plate at the very front to get that tiny bit more out of it

[Andy San]

you can't cut floors out in IPRA

if i'm going to put one of these in i want to do it properly and get it as low and as far back as possible.

has anyone got any pictures of beau yates's setup with the dry sump from the underside of the car? all the photos i have are from the top, and you can't see what the lower section of the motor looks like.

[Andy San]

you can use countersunk bolts on that plate at the very front to get that tiny bit more out of it


if you can remove it altogether you will gain about 100mm of drop in the overall motor mounting position, which will make fitting everything a lot better.

[Celica RA45]

i just had a sway bar made up to go around the sump ,kept std bar there and used some coat hanger to bend it in the right posi and then marked it and had a new 1 made
on the dry sump i have the pan and pump and also the brackets for it to bolt up to the motor etc ,its all as new ,i just havnt got around to use it yet
pump is a 3 stage pump with 2 stage suck and 1 stage pump bracket bolts to the exhaust side and does pump with belt and bolt that supports the front pulley for oil pump also have a spare idle pulley that sits on the std pump etc

[Sam-Q]

if you can remove it altogether you will gain about 100mm of drop in the overall motor mounting position, which will make fitting everything a lot better.

how does that oil pump thingy let the motor sit lower?

[Anthony]

Yes you can lose both sections of the sump (alloy and steel) if you go dry sump. The oil pump is a separate unit on the front of the motor, driven by the timing belt, as they are on all "S" motors. Sam I wouldn't contemplate using a 2S setup. That's how you lose motors, especially for circuit work. The stock Beams setup is quite good, but if you really cant fit it go dry sump.

[Sam-Q]

well it would be obvious that the engine can be lowered with a dry sump I just didn't know that's what he meant.

So whats the issue with the S series sump, so a no goer eh?

[af300e]

So whats the issue with the S series sump, so a no goer eh?

It's a backwards step from the stock beams sump. The 2s baffling is shite and the pump setup is different. The gen3 and beams 3s motors run the pump pressure relief in the alloy section of the sump. The filter is also mounted on the side of this alloy section.
Putting a 2s sump on this type of pump will mean that no oil reaches the motor, it just gets dumped back into the sump.

To use a 2s sump you'd need to change the pump to a gen 2 style pump, but it needs to have the crank angle sensor provision. Then you'd have a setup that cost money and is rubbish compared to a standard beams setup.

The 2s change is of more use for converting fwd style 3s motors to rwd.

[Sam-Q]

yeah ok thanks for the good answer. So can the beams sump be shortened? I don't mean like much, lets say 20mm?

[Andy San]

i just had a sway bar made up to go around the sump ,kept std bar there and used some coat hanger to bend it in the right posi and then marked it and had a new 1 made
on the dry sump i have the pan and pump and also the brackets for it to bolt up to the motor etc ,its all as new ,i just havnt got around to use it yet
pump is a 3 stage pump with 2 stage suck and 1 stage pump bracket bolts to the exhaust side and does pump with belt and bolt that supports the front pulley for oil pump also have a spare idle pulley that sits on the std pump etc

I'd be interested to see this setup if you've got any photos.

[buddyparts]

I would modify sway bar AS RA45 said.

[driftke70]

my standard sway bar clears the sump by about 20mm or more but i moved my motor back about 60mm.

beams sump was shockingly well designed.

[Anthony]

Mine also fit behind a standard bar, which means Brendans did too I guess :)

[Andy San]

Are they fitted in without cutting out anything?

With a w-series box?

[buddyparts]

Mine fits easy with stock sway bars, what i think Andy is getting at is he wants to not mod the tunnel at all and thinks if he has the motor forward it will fit without tunnel mods.

[Celica RA45]

for ipra, cant cut tunne lor fire wall at all , cant use 6 speed so w57 5speed is the go and i have a spare sway bar here will take some pics

[Anthony]

At the risk of some sort of argument, you can actually modify the tunnel in IPRA in order to accomodate a gearbox of more suitable strength. You can't change the firewall though, that's true. I think if you were really tricky you could get one in an 86 with no firewall mods nor any swaybar mods. And this would have far more benefit than simply avoiding a custom swaybar if you get what I mean.

Also, you can run the 6 speed as plenty of IPRA cars already do, you just have to lock 1st gear out. Which is fine as its of no real use anyway. This gives you a much closer set of gears (2nd-6th) than a stock W box. If you're rich however, or at least have the budget to do things properly, get a built W box for sure.

[fantapants]

canyou "clearance " the firewall? like love taps? or belting the fuck out of it but NO cutting?

brendan recons he got his in with no cutting. I ran out of talent, but i think if you were clever and had a bit of skill, you could get the engine to where i and brad have it without cutting. in the end i only cut cos it was easier....

[s14seriesII]

what is exactly out the back of the motor so far that the firewall needs modifying ?

mine is a long way back.. and still no clearance issues.. altho getting to the top bell housing bolts nearly requires a special spanner..

or is it simply to get the sump to clear the sway bar ?

[Anthony]

No it's not. To me, it's more about optimal weight balance than getting a special swaybar. Hence my previous post. On the beams theres one fitting out the back with some unnecessary water fittings and a necessary oil drain. Not too big a deal, less than what's on a gen2/3 anyway.

[s14seriesII]

ah ok.. so main priority is really weight balance ? with the pay off of fitting the beams oil pan in aswell..

i should measure how far back mine is.. compared to all these would be interesting..

i think the middle of my motor is further back than the middle of a 4age.. by about 2 inches at a guess..

[fantapants]

thebiggest hurdle for me was the bell housing at the snout of the tunnel? it just rubbed too hard on the ribs... didnt have any idea how much the motor would move sooo made more room than i need.

can get regular spanners in the back to get engine off bell, so plenty of room.

my engine also sits a fair bit behind where the 4a did ...

[s14seriesII]

ah yes.. i am maybe running my engine a bit lower than the normal..
the crankshaft counterweights would be about half an inch off the crossmember.. the sump has cut outs where it goes over the steering rack even..
this may have made fitting teh R154 easier aswell..

[Anthony]

Yeah weight balance. Everyone has different priorites with a conversion like that, and it's always a compromise. It's like if you say you didn't have to modify the swaybar people reading assume you placed the engine where you did so you didn't have to modify the swaybar. I know full well how easy it is to get a custom swaybar, so I would never let that factor affect engine position too much. They don't get that that was just a lucky byproduct of a better engine placement.

[Celica RA45]

anthony did you get the motor in with out spacing the xmember down 25mm like mister sherwood did at all
and yes you are right its the oil drain back that is the problem to fit into a car .i just made the bar up to fit so it was easy for me and also at the same time the bar was made as a fully adjustable as well
in my 45 which is bigger and heavier than the 86 my weight ratio with a f series disc barke rear is 52 front and 48 rear with me in the car
would be good to see what the spoontah comes in at
on the box issue its 4 kilos in weight difference between the w and the j box but also gear stick is further back as well

also didnt you from memory, cut the fire wall to get it in as well

[s14seriesII]

this is a different topic but the heavier diff doesnt really contirbute to better weight balance as it unsprung..
moving battery into the boot, fuel system, swirl pot etc help weight balance

[Celica RA45]

all GT s run F series disc brake rears as std ,dont think a T series would be up to it

[s14seriesII]

i wasnt saying to use a lighter diff.. just saying that the diff doesnt help weight distribution.. i have a hilux diff in my 86..

[Celica RA45]

its not just front and rear its also cross weights as well that play a major roll in car set up

[Celica RA45]

this is for you anthony ,you cannot cut the tunnel but minor reshaping can be done with hammer but metal cannot be taken a way or added for a bigger box

The relevant transmission tunnel regs.
3.2 Transmission tunnel: Minor reshaping of the body is permitted to enable fitment of replacement gearboxes and clutch assemblies.

The important words are "minor reshaping", so small amounts of say hammer work would be OK, but removing metal and replacing it with other metal of a different shape is most certainly not. This "minor reshaping" is of course restricted to the transmission tunnel and strictly that necessary for the fitments of gearbox and clutch. Not the firewall and not the engine.


Cheers
Gary Cook
NSW Eligibility Person
Last edited by TwinTurbo on Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total. TwinTurbo
I spend too much time in front of a keyboard

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[Sam-Q]

thebiggest hurdle for me was the bell housing at the snout of the tunnel? it just rubbed too hard on the ribs... didnt have any idea how much the motor would move sooo made more room than i need.

can get regular spanners in the back to get engine off bell, so plenty of room.

my engine also sits a fair bit behind where the 4a did ...

is this with the stock 6 speed?

[Sam-Q]

so guys the limiting fator in what hits first is the bellhousing then?

[fantapants]

nah im running a 3y bell with a w57... apparently the 6 speed bell taper is worse?

[Anthony]

Yeah the 6 speed taper is worse. Still, plenty of IPRA corolla guys running them. I think for the money and the application they make a fair bit of sense.

[Sam-Q]

Anthony does the Y and the W series bellhousing take up the same amount of space roughly?

[Anthony]

Y and W? what do you mean? Y goes on a W. Y and other types of W bells take up the same space yeah. They all leave the spigot in mid air, so you need to address that. An altezza flywheel takes care of this as it has the spigot bearing in the flywheel.

Is that what you meant?

[Andy San]

What do you mean by leaving the spigot in mid air?

[Anthony]

well it doesnt make it into the crank, like it does with a T50 etc.

[Andy San]

Can someone with a 3y bellhousing measure how long it actually is? I have another one, which has the starter and clutch on the exhaust side which if it is the same length as a 3y one I can use it to fit up my motor.

[Celica RA45]

i use a custom 2s bellhousing and put a longer spigot bearing into the back of the crank ,problem fixed

[Andy San]

i use a custom 2s bellhousing and put a longer spigot bearing into the back of the crank ,problem fixed

Does this mean that all cars running w-series boxes have spigot bearings in the flywheel? Or do 22re motors etc have a crank that protrudes further back into the bellhousing, as I was under the impression that the bearing was in the crank on those engines.

Do aftermarket flywheels to suit altezza/beams have provison for a bearing? Or do they need to be altered

[Celica RA45]

well i have had both boxes in ,and it was easier for me to put spigot into back of crank than back of flywheel as my f/wheel is 3 kilos in weight

[Anthony]

Yeah any altezza clutch kit, oem or aftermarket has the bearing in the flywheel. Also, other RWD later model S motors have it in the flywheel as well, like 3/4SFE from cressida's and townace vans. These are 8 bolt as well, although not the correct hole size or PCD for beams 3SGE's, they can be modified to work.

[takai]

On either the Y or S bellhousing you can use a double row spigot bearing which will support the input shaft just fine.

[Andy San]

Where is the clutch/starter located on the 2s bellhousing?

[Anthony]

S has them both on the passenger (exhaust) side, Y has them both on the drivers side.

The reason I prefer the altezz clutch kit idea over the double row spigot bearing is that it solves a few of the big 3S RWD headaches all at once. Namely, bearing, flywheel, ring gear and clutch.

[Andy San]

Anthony do you have a certain starter motor that you use for the 3y bellhousing? I wouldn't imagine that the original one from the 6 speed fits

[takai]

3S FWD one fits im pretty sure.

[fantapants]

ANDY... hav a look a roidchikens thread... good starter solution.... brad is a clever lil boy :)

the problem we found was getting one to clear the stearing.... with the 3y bell the starter is rotated much further around the bell than the original 6 speed...

brad made a spacer to mount a 22re i think it was... worked purfect.

the beams clutch and flywheel kit is a great solution dont see muc need to fuck about with other stuff.

the back of the engine i went with was

3y bell modified by ant :)
altezza trd clutch and flywheel
3y clutch fork and clutch slave
w57
22re starter with bradspec mount

hth
even for a muppet like me it all bolted up and worked.

[Andy San]

What gets modded on the bellhousing?

[Anthony]

One of the top bell housing to block 12mm bolt holes is out by about 15mm. The other 3 and both dowels are fine, just that one hole. Worth it to get the clutch and starter on the drivers side.

[driftke70]

indeed

you ever end up doing those modified 20v starters?

[Andy San]

One of the top bell housing to block 12mm bolt holes is out by about 15mm. The other 3 and both dowels are fine, just that one hole. Worth it to get the clutch and starter on the drivers side.

Definately. The 2s one wouldn't work with a beams anyway as the starter would be right in the way of the oil drain.

[Anthony]

indeed

you ever end up doing those modified 20v starters?

I found 2 20V starters which I have here. Just no bell housings around to set the job up with. Sold them all. Easy enough job though, if anyone needs a bell housing modified with a modded starter to go with it I could do that.

[driftke70]

if i were to drop a bell off?

i just got plenty of other shit to do at the moment and a done and dusted starter would free up some breathing space in the old noggin.

[Anthony]

yeah np. drop it in any time.

[Celica RA45]

so andy when you set this up for ipra it might pay you to get a racing clutch ,like a 5inch dia . i seem to be braking straps all of the time
and if you saw what i put up you are not aloud to cut the tunnel at all only love taps same for the fire wall

[fantapants]

I found 2 20V starters which I have here. Just no bell housings around to set the job up with. Sold them all. Easy enough job though, if anyone needs a bell housing modified with a modded starter to go with it I could do that.

I STILL GOT A SPARE HERE ANT IF YOU NEED IT :)

sorry for caps

[Andy San]

so andy when you set this up for ipra it might pay you to get a racing clutch ,like a 5inch dia . i seem to be braking straps all of the time
and if you saw what i put up you are not aloud to cut the tunnel at all only love taps same for the fire wall

yeah i was thinking of getting an OS giken single plate/flywheel setup or something similar, you can get one for about 1200 delivered if my calculations are correct


I STILL GOT A SPARE HERE ANT IF YOU NEED IT :)

sorry for caps

A SPARE 3Y ONE??

I NEED IT! :P

[Anthony]

Thats right! I thought I was meant to have one here. Yeah I'll grab it as planned Pat, so I can do these starters. Can you PM me your number again? new phone...

[driftke70]

would be awesome as mines currently bolted to my gear box, which is joined to my motor, which is joined to my car.

[Sam-Q]

hey can someone post a pic of how the 3S beams sump fits in relation to the steering rack and crossmember?

[slide86]

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buy it, adapt it, thank me, then win at life