Crazy Extractors - Power?

[tc-rolla]

hey guys,

Looking at these "crazy" extractors that i've seen on a few 4age's, and was wondering if they actualy make any power through these crazy design's they have? or- better power compaired to a conventional designed extractor?
And most of them would be tuned length?

design's like these:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/5/6/9/41538.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/5/6/9/41539.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/5/6/9/41540.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/5/6/9/41541.jpg

[Juturna]

only up the top of the rev range, you will have to do supporting mods to get the best out of them, cams, porting, bigger valves etc. not worth it unless your doing a loose build.

[Sam-Q]

only up the top of the rev range, you will have to do supporting mods to get the best out of them, cams, porting, bigger valves etc. not worth it unless your doing a loose build.

what makes you think that?

you know the Danstoy pipes like nice and all but I guessing that collecor looks a bit ordinary on the inside. Hey didn't we a simular thread about 6 months ago?

[86JAP]

Been wondering this myself..

Does anyone know where extractors like those are available?

[Juturna]

what makes you think that?

you know the Danstoy pipes like nice and all but I guessing that collecor looks a bit ordinary on the inside. Hey didn't we a simular thread about 6 months ago?

just the length of the primaries, for 99% of people they would just be eye candy, you could get good power, but supporting mods would be needed to get the most out of them.

[Sam-Q]

the longer the primaries the lower down in the rev range you will make power, as a rough guess I would say with stock cams those pipes would have a primary resonance at about 5000, for the ones in the first pic much less..

[Javal]

paging Frak

[ke_70]

*awaits epic conclusion*

[Skylar]

Here's a comparo of two exhaust systems. The lower power one was an off the shelf extractor set for VQ35/Z33 with twin 2.5" exhausts. The higher power one is a set of extractors the guy made himself for the car along with the 3.5" single exhaust.
http://www.ziptied.com/Coppermine/albums/userpics/10252/sgheaderandexhtocoastanddual.JPG

This one's good, same exhaust(twin 2.5"), different manifolds. You can see the engine makes more top end but less low end.
http://www.ziptied.com/Coppermine/albums/userpics/10252/sgheadertocoastheader.JPG

To answer your question, it does make a difference if it's well designed and properly executed.

[70XIN]

Well as the evidence above suggests, "crazy" extractors can make a great power increase. A well designed collector + tuned length/long runners etc all go a long way. My girlfriends' N/A supra just had some equal-length extractors made up, and the difference in power was amazing. 15whp difference at max power, but a shitload (25whp+) more in the midrange. I might add, this is in comparison to standard headers not other aftermarket ones. Her car still made ~20hp more than any other car with similar mods (and different, off-the-shelf extractors).

I'll be making a set of 'sick bro' extractors for Robo86's AE86 at some point to replace his TRD copies. Might be good, might not, we shall see.

[--Redwork--]

Pipes really have to suit the engine....
I've seen massive improvents over the best off the shelf pipes when they were designed to suit the engine... And the biggest improvements were in the midrange, where short 4 into 1 arn't supposed to make good power... There is so much science in exhaust systems for aspirate engines its stupid...

Most of the fancy headers you've shown pitures of are designed that way to get them equal length....

[Sam-Q]

Pipes really have to suit the engine....
I've seen massive improvents over the best off the shelf pipes when they were designed to suit the engine... And the biggest improvements were in the midrange, where short 4 into 1 arn't supposed to make good power... There is so much science in exhaust systems for aspirate engines its stupid...

Most of the fancy headers you've shown pitures of are designed that way to get them equal length....

no, it's quite easy to get pipes to be equal length whist being short, like my mine:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/41599.jpg

They are very much long on purpose

I have been planning for quite some time to make my own new set of pipes as when I made my original extractors I really didn't know what I was doing when I initially made them and hence they are far from being long enough. I would only ever use 4-2-1 pipes though after the quoted results that Toda came up with. I would be looking at having about 700mm primaries and 350 secondaries

[biggo]

Anyone note they all look like built NA motors? People who go to the extent of pulling a motor apart and upgerading parts have obviously put a smidgeon of thought into what they want to achive.

Longer primaries sound better too.

[Sam-Q]

Longer primaries sound better too.

all depends where you want your power

[--Redwork--]

4.1 V's 4.2.1 is and age old argument... 4.2.1 are supposed to give you better average power as opposed to a 4.1 setup.. The fact is though, that a properly designed 4.1 setup will beat it everywhere..... And you where's the stepped pipe sizes and collector diammeters.??? This is 2010 not 1980..

These guys are awesome... Have seen back to back test with their stuff.. allways makes better power.
You pay for it though.. :(
http://www.burnsstainless.com/techarticles.aspx

[Sam-Q]

thats not what Toda say

[Frak]

paging Frak


Josh, I'll put something together, I have some good stuff I use during my night class.

[tc-rolla]

Sam-q, do you have these results from toda?

I was speaking to the local exhaust guy, and he's done a few of thesse style extractors, and he swears the 4-1 will always make more power.
but same as i've heard from 4-2-1. so its kinda n/a vs forced induction agrument lol.

i was led to believe that 4-1 provide better exhasut scavanenging?

EDIT - still researching and found this: reguarding extractors;
Tubes that are too large will cause the exhaust gas to expand and slow down, decreasing the scavenging effect. Tubes that are too small will create exhaust flow resistance which the engine must work to expel the exhaust gas from the chamber, reducing power and leaving exhaust in the chamber to dilute the incoming intake charge. Since engines produce more exhaust gas at higher speeds, the header(s) are tuned to a particular engine speed range according to the intended application. Typically, wide primary tubes offer the best gains in power and torque at higher engine speeds, while narrow tubes offer the best gains at lower speeds.

[Frak]

just a few things to think about,

it's NOT just about exhaust scavenging.......what if the inlet valve were to be open when the negative energy waved reached the cylinder?

having a set of 'tuned' headers could be untuned by simply altering exhaust cam timing via an adjustable sprocket, the wave does have to reach the cylinder when the exhaust valve is open ;)

cam timing has a huge effect on 'tuning' pipes(both exhaust AND inlet)

You can look at valve overlap as a 'window' for the negative pulse to do it's magic

some part of the negative wave entering the cylinder is better than NO part of the negative wave entering the cylinder

we always want the positive wave to reach the cylinder when the exhaust valve is closed

positive waves give flatspots

if there is a negative wave, there will also be a following positive wave

longer primaries tune to lower rpm(lower rpm doesn't mean 3000rpm tho ;) )

4-1's have one strong negative wave

4-2-1's have two negative waves of less energy but can be made to overlap to appear like a much longer duration negative wave. hmmmm maybe widening the torque band?

and once you have thought about all this, throw it out the window as you'll run an engine up on the dyno and it won't do what it suppose to do:crying:

[sundee]

and once you have thought about all this, throw it out the window as you'll run an engine up on the dyno and it won't do what it suppose to do:crying:

haha FAIL :D

[stx-16]

i vote frank for the next king

[sundee]

Close up of 1st pic in 1st post

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/5/41607.jpg

and just cause....

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/5/41608.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/5/41609.jpg

[ke70dave]

that first pic you posted up there sundeee (grey rocker covers) which is the same as the first pic posted by tc_roller on previous page.

it doesnt appear to have a dizzy? and there is no cas on the front of the camshaft.

i assume it must have a custom thing around the crank. something like an EDIS system maybe?

as for exhausts, i think frak has pretty much summed it up. sure they will make power, with a hell of alot of design work into the rest of the engine.

this negative/positive pulse stuff is starting to hurt my head.

time to buy some books if you are really serious about this.

assuming books exist on this kind of stuff.

[sundee]

Their is some kind of sensor/pickup under the intake came gear - its a small cylendrical type can

[ke70dave]

Their is some kind of sensor/pickup under the intake came gear - its a small cylendrical type can

ahh good spotting!!

interesting setup either way.

[Jdm-Mcc]

Ive seen videos of stainless pipe in a vice heated with an industrial blow torch ( much wider hotter flame) and bent by hand to make equal length single piece extractors. Quite sexual

[Frak]

Ive seen videos of stainless pipe in a vice heated with an industrial blow torch ( much wider hotter flame) and bent by hand to make equal length single piece extractors. Quite sexual

Yes, you fill the pipe with sand and heat the pipe, I've seen some very nicely made sextractors made this way.

Also for the guys wanting to make their own and are tig welding, make sure you wear protective gear, I learnt the hard way, many years ago, I was making some headers and tacking the stainless pipes where I needed them until I completely tigged up the pipes, I was just closing my eyes, turning away and dropping a tack on the pipes, I got so badly burnt from the ultraviolet radiation it wasn't funny, my eyelids were the worst and everytime I opened my eyes it stung like crazy.

[Gunner]

migs do it too dude, probably no where near what the tig will do.

[stx-16]

yeah iv done this with a mig it really sucks i had a good sleep that night tho haha

[Jdm-Mcc]

I have reason to believe any arc welding flash will cause welding flash, not just a tig

[doots]

just be sensible and weld the way your suppose to. safely.

uncie frak do you have any diagrams or links to diagrams on this +/- pulse? im very interested.

[mini_andrew]

Their is some kind of sensor/pickup under the intake came gear - its a small cylendrical type can

That's actually a 1jz and 2jz CAS, Wonder what ecu setup it is running?

[redsprinter]

frak .

i would love to be a student of your class. the amount of things i could learn from a man like yourself :)) .

[stx-16]

2nd^^ were do you teach?

[Frak]

I teach in SA, at work we have a mainline chassis dyno, superflow flow bench and a superflow engine dyno which we are now upgrading with data aquisition/control system from mainline. I run a few night courses, a small forced induction one, where we go thru the ins and outs of turbo's, take em apart, measure up, reassemble etc.

I also do an eight week course;
1st week set up of dyno, ins and outs, ramp rates, dispelling the BS myths etc
2nd week, live programming of ignition maps, using MTBT and exhaust gas temp
3rd week, live programming of fuel maps
4th week dyno session, test and tune sort of thing, this can be quite a good session if guys have things they wish to change, if they don't I usually get a few race cars in and we do some changes.
5th week flow benching and porting heads
6th week setting up and dialling in camshafts(dial in a stocker then replace with race cam and set up)
7th week intake and exhaust tuning
8th week another dyno session
All nights have a theory then practical aspect

All this for just $170!!!!!! (It's so cheap I might do it myself!)I am running a class in a few weeks, but as you could imagine they book out straight away,

Now that we are getting new software for the engine dyno I will be running courses on set up and programming of aftermarket ecu's from empty out of the box to fully mapped.

[stx-16]

FAAARRKKK it sounds like a good choice to move to sa

do you know of anywere that will do that kind of stuff in northern nsw/south qld?
and how would i search for a class like yours?

[--Redwork--]

Thats so awesome.. pitty your in SA... I would so go to that.... You can never know too much :)
Knowledge is power as they say.. A saying that rings true when talking about engine development.