engine temps for the 4age

[pen15]

Car - toyota corolla 1984

motor - jdm 4age 16v

use - drift

problem - there is none yet

occurs/started when - drifting

personal situation - ok here i go so i was at the drifts Friday night and i could only do maby 2 laps before my temps where about 260deg F or 126.666667deg C now i have a massive rad with a decent thermo fan i only get massive temps when sliding it hard as its on its limiter most of the time or just under so this is my question is it ok for the engine to run this hot or is that too hot what would be the max you could run it on before doing major damage i also run an adaptronic so it wont cut the engine if temps are too hot as factory ecu does.

cheers all
mat

[reecegze]

Well water boils at 100 degrees I would aim to maintain between 85 to 90 when tracking it. Mines never goes over 95 when on limiter with 4agte motor. I'll would be looking for problems in you cooling system

[timbo]

with temps that high i would be looking at whether you water is actually flowing through your system. big radiators and thermo's are great but if your cooling system is clogged up they're not going to do shit.

[ke70dave]

agreed with timbo.

also where is your temp guage sender located?

my engine doesnt get any hotter than 82 deg, though ive not really drifted it at all, but i hardly ever have to use my thermo fan at all. takes about 10min of sitting still before the temp starts to rise above 82, and i only have a standard ae71 radiator.

oh and my temp guage sender is located just near the thermostat.

[KENut]

Well water boils at 100 degrees at atmospheric pressure
fixed.

I guess you'd be getting pretty close to boiling point though anyway. What radiator cap are you using? Like a 90kPa? I'd get a higher one just in case. Is the thermofan shrouded well? Sounds like the radiator isnt getting enough air flow through it

[sundee]

^^ what is atmospheric pressure? i think you might mean. ISA ( international standard atmosphere) which is 1013 hpa @ 15'c
Water does boil at 100 Deg , coolant doesnt.
Green coolant boils at - 105'c
Red Coolant Boils at : 127'c - 130'c

fix:

upgrade to red coolant - get the concerntrate, and mix it as per the instructions
get a hi pressure water cap - increasing the pressure increases the boiling point.
not sure if you can get a hi flow thermostat?
could make some gates to catch air.. like on a 45' angle facing out and foward from the outer edges of the radiator.
get the water system flushed out and cleaned.

[wntdae86]

use coolant and check your system for blockage ... also check the thormoist is a cold opening one


DO NOT USE WATER

[ke70dave]

upgrade to red coolant - get the concerntrate, and mix it as per the instructions
get a hi pressure water cap - increasing the pressure increases the boiling point.
not sure if you can get a hi flow thermostat?
could make some gates to catch air.. like on a 45' angle facing out and foward from the outer edges of the radiator.
get the water system flushed out and cleaned.

all those ideas are good, but in reality with a standard system he should not be getting anywhere near the temps he is getting with a stocko 4age.

and he has a chunky radiator which should definately help.

my guess is blocked cooling system or stuffed thermostat.

other thing is a dodgy rad cap, when it is running is the rubber radiator hoses pressurised? they should be nice and hard, compared to when the engine is cold they will be soft.

if the 126C temp is correct...thats bloody hot!!

oh and if you get it to hot, it will overheat, which will warp your head and blow your headgasket.

warped head = either throw it out, or pay ALOT ($800+) to get it straightened.

[pen15]

^^ what is atmospheric pressure? i think you might mean. ISA ( international standard atmosphere) which is 1013 hpa @ 15'c
Water does boil at 100 Deg , coolant doesnt.
Green coolant boils at - 105'c
Red Coolant Boils at : 127'c - 130'c

fix:

upgrade to red coolant - get the concerntrate, and mix it as per the instructions
get a hi pressure water cap - increasing the pressure increases the boiling point.
not sure if you can get a hi flow thermostat?
could make some gates to catch air.. like on a 45' angle facing out and foward from the outer edges of the radiator.
get the water system flushed out and cleaned.

noted will be upgrading the coolant

as for where the temp sensor block is located its on the upper hose on the rad

how would i check for a blockage

and finally whats the best thing to do a good clean out on the system?

thanks all for the feedback really appreciate all your comments ill now have a good list of things to go through and either check or rectify

[trikzlane]

you can get these adapters that you connect a air-line and water hose too, to pressure blast the cooling system, thats the most effective way

[ke70dave]

as for where the temp sensor block is located its on the upper hose on the rad



hmm that may not be the best indication.

since the water doesnt flow through that pipe when the thermostat is closed.

you really want to try and get it on the engine side of the thermostat.

if you are running a remote thermostat then there is a little hole in a good spot, where the standard temp guage.

as for cleaning out system, take our radiator and turn it up side down, filling it up with water and letting it rush out. then just shove a hose on the radiator pipes and give the engine a blast with water.

[Javal]

^^ what is atmospheric pressure? i think you might mean. ISA ( international standard atmosphere) which is 1013 hpa @ 15'c
Water does boil at 100 Deg , coolant doesnt.
Green coolant boils at - 105'c
Red Coolant Boils at : 127'c - 130'c

fix:

upgrade to red coolant - get the concerntrate, and mix it as per the instructions
get a hi pressure water cap - increasing the pressure increases the boiling point.
not sure if you can get a hi flow thermostat?
could make some gates to catch air.. like on a 45' angle facing out and foward from the outer edges of the radiator.
get the water system flushed out and cleaned.

That's a pretty genuinely silly statement you have there about coolant colours and specific boiling points champ. Even at atmospheric you'll struggle to get most coolants to last anywhere past 110.

The colour doesn't mean dick, although it helps people distinguish the types and thus helps prevent people mixing them, however it doesn't stop the retards from doing it. Inorganic and organic are the two most common varieties, and can be any colour of the rainbow.

Each brand and product of that brand will be made to a different formula but still meet the same prerequisites for that type of coolant.

Enough of educating, lets get problem solving -


all those ideas are good, but in reality with a standard system he should not be getting anywhere near the temps he is getting with a stocko 4age.
Spot on

and he has a chunky radiator which should definately help.

my guess is blocked cooling system or stuffed thermostat.
This is a good thing to be looking at. A blocked cooling system is raaaaaaaare, however blocked radiators are a common occurrence. However it is questionable that this problem only occurs when giving the car a real thrashing, which is inconsistent with the symptoms of a blocked radiator.

A stuck closed thermostat will certainly cause overheating problems like this.

other thing is a dodgy rad cap, when it is running is the rubber radiator hoses pressurised? they should be nice and hard, compared to when the engine is cold they will be soft.

This is another very good check to do. Not only that, when your engine is right up at operating temperature, check if they are both hot. If one is SIGNIFICANTLY hotter than the other, you have a thermostat problem, or a radiator blockage.

if the 126C temp is correct...thats bloody hot!!

oh and if you get it to hot, it will overheat, which will warp your head and blow your headgasket.

warped head = either throw it out, or pay ALOT ($800+) to get it straightened.

126 Deg C is FAR too hot to be running a 4AG consistently.

Ke70dave, if you payed $800 to have your head straightened, i feel VERY sorry for you.




hmm that may not be the best indication.

since the water doesnt flow through that pipe when the thermostat is closed.

you really want to try and get it on the engine side of the thermostat.

if you are running a remote thermostat then there is a little hole in a good spot, where the standard temp guage.

as for cleaning out system, take our radiator and turn it up side down, filling it up with water and letting it rush out. then just shove a hose on the radiator pipes and give the engine a blast with water.

If memory serves (which it often doesn't :hehe:) The water temp sensor for the ECU should be on the back of the head. I know it is for all the FWD versions anyway, so it's not a bad spot to have it. The Top radiator hose however is not as good a spot, for reasons mentioned by KE70 dave.

Before i worry about that though i'd be going through and checking the basics. Get your cooling system pressure tested, too. If you have a mechanic mate then they might be able to help you with that one.

It is indeed unsurprising that you're car is only getting hot when thrashing it. Do you have shrouded thermofans or are they just sitting there on their own? There's alot of things to think about when it comes to cooling system efficiency. It may even be engine related. Running 98 octane? Timing advanced alot?

[pen15]

i can take of my setup today as i was gonna be plating around with the car anyway but as for thermostat how would i check to see if its working correctly as me and golberg set it up when i put this motor in a while back now and we got a brand new rwd thermostat

btw i don't know if it helps but this is how i knew it was not just my gauge playing up
http://www.billzilla.org/4agpower.jpg
when i got off the track it was glowing as much as this but then i remembered this pic and realized maby is wasn't that bad running it that hot as this one was doing it on a full power run on a dyno

[sundee]

Javal if you cared to look on the shelf of any auto store you would notice 2 different types of coolant, one Green one Red. next time your their, care to take them both off the shelf (from the same manufacturer) and read the specs on the back.

funny enough i got those boiling points off the back of the bottles i have in my garage

that is all.

[sundee]

thought i could make it easy for you javal, read the specs on the top 2. the red and the green concerntrate's...............

http://www.nulon.com.au/product_group/Cooling_Systems/

[pen15]

looking at this chart from Bill Sherwood my cooling block for my gauge is measuring water coming from the engine at 110deg c how much would the radiator be able to cool the water down to exiting it back through to the motor?

http://www.billzilla.org/4agwater.gif

[marvis]

That is still the correct way to read it.

That temp is heaps high, like people have mentioned.

What is a 'massive rad'?

[ke70dave]

If memory serves (which it often doesn't :hehe:) The water temp sensor for the ECU should be on the back of the head. I know it is for all the FWD versions anyway, so it's not a bad spot to have it. The Top radiator hose however is not as good a spot, for reasons mentioned by KE70 dave.

mmm not sure about that.

on the back of the head there is only 2 ports, one is the temp sender for the ecu (green plug) and the other one is the switch/sender for the cold start circuit (brown plug). nothing about temperature guages in there unfortunately.

and i cant be bothered commenting on the coolant types, just dont mix them and they are as good as each other.

and pen15 your question about how much does a radiator cool is to hard to answer, how much air is flowing over the radiator? etc.

oh and jarval, i didnt get my head straighted, but my mate did on his mazda BP engine. (i would have just sourced a 2nd hand one...)( im not sure if the $800 was just for the straightening. but an acid dip, a shave. im not entirely sure what the machinist did, but it was bent before and it was straight afterwards. i think they re drilled all the valve guides and inserted oversized valve guides, they would have machined all the cam shaft lobes to make the cams straight again. and when a company charges ~$85/hr it doesnt take long to add up.

[Javal]

Javal if you cared to look on the shelf of any auto store you would notice 2 different types of coolant, one Green one Red. next time your their, care to take them both off the shelf (from the same manufacturer) and read the specs on the back.

funny enough i got those boiling points off the back of the bottles i have in my garage

that is all.
What i am saying is colours are not indicative of boiling points, hero.

I'd still like to see you get a coolant over 110 degrees unpressurized.

[Javal]

mmm not sure about that.

on the back of the head there is only 2 ports, one is the temp sender for the ecu (green plug) and the other one is the switch/sender for the cold start circuit (brown plug). nothing about temperature guages in there unfortunately.

oh and jarval, i didnt get my head straighted, but my mate did on his mazda BP engine. (i would have just sourced a 2nd hand one...)( im not sure if the $800 was just for the straightening. but an acid dip, a shave. im not entirely sure what the machinist did, but it was bent before and it was straight afterwards. i think they re drilled all the valve guides and inserted oversized valve guides, they would have machined all the cam shaft lobes to make the cams straight again. and when a company charges ~$85/hr it doesnt take long to add up.

He said he was running an adaptronic, yeah? Thus, wouldn't he be using the ECU Coolant temp sensor for the adaptronic and then Gauge coolant temp sensor (in the top water housing(?) maybe that's just FWD.)for his aftermarket gauge? That is IF you're running an aftermarket gauge, not a digital readout straight off the adaptronic (again, unsure if they have this feature).

$800 for a full head re-co is about right. Just for surfacing should be about $80 if it's already off.

Pen15 - you need to do those checks first - hose pressure and temperatures etc. It never gets hot when it's just idling on a hot day?

[ke70dave]

ah yer sorry forgot about the adaptronic. yer then ive no idea what is goin on then...not enough info given on that one.

[Javal]

ah yer sorry forgot about the adaptronic. yer then ive no idea what is goin on then...not enough info given on that one.

Yeah totally agreed, there's ALOT of uneducated speculation going on in here. More info definitely required.

[pen15]

ok this is what i can tell you

engine is a rock stock 4age 16v from a jdm sprinter witch means all stock heater lines sensors and all the only other mod is my cams
the rad is wider than a ke70 stock one and overall is bigger than sprinter aswell i done a clean on it today looks mint inside now so will have to get it on the track again to check if its gonna overheat but sitting there in the hot day on idle it was sitting very nice on 180 deg F thermo fan kicked in nicely and turned off when temps dropped again so im not sure if its all good but will keep checking

and i will definitely need an overflow lol

[ke70dave]

well 180F is 82C, and standard 4age thermostat is rated at 82deg so that is spot on.

also why do you have a temperature guage in farenheit??:P

sounds like its all working well, sure your temperature guage isnt stuffed?

i replaced a water pump and a thermostat because my tem guage wiring was dodgy..

how does the temp guage react on the track, does it change gradually or is it sudden?

also if the water is actually 126deg, the under bonnet temps should be pretty damn hot, if you pop the bonnet with it at that temp you should be able to tell that your engine is stupidly hot.

[sundee]

What i am saying is colours are not indicative of boiling points, hero.

I'd still like to see you get a coolant over 110 degrees unpressurized.

JAVAL, No one said that the colour indicates the boiling temp! HERO! i did list the boiling temps next to the colour's as a reference. the back of the bottle lists the boiling points.
And i guess you know better then Nulon...

do your own independant test and take over the world

[pen15]

well sitting in the red sorta makes it heat up real quick and im not travailing through the air straight for very long before its sidways and on the limit again but on my stock dash gauge its around half way when it works lol but is that very hot?

[Javal]

^^ what is atmospheric pressure? i think you might mean. ISA ( international standard atmosphere) which is 1013 hpa @ 15'c
Water does boil at 100 Deg , coolant doesnt.
Green coolant boils at - 105'c
Red Coolant Boils at : 127'c - 130'c



JAVAL, No one said that the colour indicates the boiling temp! HERO! i did list the boiling temps next to the colour's as a reference. the back of the bottle lists the boiling points.
And i guess you know better then Nulon...

do your own independant test and take over the world

No, I know better than you quoting the nulon website, hero.

Stop being childish.



well sitting in the red sorta makes it heat up real quick and im not travailing through the air straight for very long before its sidways and on the limit again but on my stock dash gauge its around half way when it works lol but is that very hot?

Running a shroud with your thermo?

Set your thermofan to switch on earlier and see how you go.

[ke70dave]

i dont know how adaptronic is setup, but hopefully it has been setup with a reliable temperature sender.

so you could get a laptop and plug it in and see what temperature your adaptronic is seeing.

im not sure if there is a datalogging feature in adaptronics but if there is then that may be an option as well.

i think first things first is to move the temp guage sender to an appropriate location.

and javal i know that a shrouded thermo fan is the way to go, but on my car i have never had a shroud and i dont have any problems, like i have said previously i think i rarely need to use my thermo fan, and if i keep the car moving i never have to use it....thermostat and radiator keep the temps undercontrol by themselves.

[Javal]

and javal i know that a shrouded thermo fan is the way to go, but on my car i have never had a shroud and i dont have any problems, like i have said previously i think i rarely need to use my thermo fan, and if i keep the car moving i never have to use it....thermostat and radiator keep the temps undercontrol by themselves.

Your setup may be different to pen15's, you may have a bigger fan or a thicker radiator core, doesn't really matter, clearly yours is working better than his :P

A shroud IS the way to go. Draw air through the WHOLE radiator instead of only the surface area covered by the fan. Ultimately a clutch fan with shroud will work just about as well as a thermofan with shroud.

You say you don't have to use the fan as long as you keep moving, this is very normal, however pen15's problem is that there is little frontal airflow when he's 'going hard' skidding.

An air dam and a shroud may be the solution to this one.

[ke70dave]

haha damnit, as soon as i posted my last post i knew that i should have said something like "but yours is when you are drifting, so it might be worse"

ah well, hopefully mr pen15 works his car out soon.

[Skylar]

Coolants with ethyl glycol perform worse than straight distilled water in heat transfer tests. The glycol just helps raise boiling temperature (and lower freezing temps, not that it really matters in Australia) so that's another point to think about.

Just for the hell of it, one of my cars has pink coolant, the other has blue. Neither of them say anything about boiling temperature on the bottle.

[blair]

My car sits on 80deg water.
and 80 deg oil.

havent tracked it since oil cooler addition, but copped a fair smashing on some private roads run after run and barely hit 85 :)
i run a massive radiator and thermos aswel, like the others sounds like a blockage or thermostat not opening enough! 126 is BAAAAAD

[Javal]

Coolants with ethyl glycol perform worse than straight distilled water in heat transfer tests. The glycol just helps raise boiling temperature (and lower freezing temps, not that it really matters in Australia) so that's another point to think about.

Just for the hell of it, one of my cars has pink coolant, the other has blue. Neither of them say anything about boiling temperature on the bottle.

Bang on the money. Glycol content is the main factor which contributes to a coolants' boiling point.

My work keeps 6 varieties of green coolant, one blue as well as three shades of orange and red. Glycol content and manufacturing spec are different on all of them.

And none of them have a listed boiling point :DD


My car sits on 80deg water.
and 80 deg oil.

havent tracked it since oil cooler addition, but copped a fair smashing on some private roads run after run and barely hit 85 :)
i run a massive radiator and thermos aswel, like the others sounds like a blockage or thermostat not opening enough! 126 is BAAAAAD

Your cooling system is certainly operating correctly then! However i beg to differ with your diagnosis.

Both a blockage issue and a thermostat stuck closed issue will rear their heads under all operating conditions, i.e. if you leave it idling it'll still cook itself.

However a partially opening thermostat does seem feasible.

More feedback needed from the penis.

[blair]

Bang on the money. Glycol content is the main factor which contributes to a coolants' boiling point.

My work keeps 6 varieties of green coolant, one blue as well as three shades of orange and red. Glycol content and manufacturing spec are different on all of them.

And none of them have a listed boiling point :DD



Your cooling system is certainly operating correctly then! However i beg to differ with your diagnosis.

Both a blockage issue and a thermostat stuck closed issue will rear their heads under all operating conditions, i.e. if you leave it idling it'll still cook itself.

However a partially opening thermostat does seem feasible.

More feedback needed from the penis.

Yer partial closure is what im betting on?

I had this exact problem with my t-18, it would overheat after a bit of a thrash, but i could drive it up and down the coast (1.5hours each way) without a problem.

Took thermostat out, cleaned the shit out of it and de-rustified it - No problems since :)

i.e. when the car is just regular driving, it is able to cope with the x% of water flow, but when the car gets hotter with increased consistent revs/load, the x% just isn't enough circulation to keep the temps down?

[Javal]

Yer partial closure is what im betting on?

I had this exact problem with my t-18, it would overheat after a bit of a thrash, but i could drive it up and down the coast (1.5hours each way) without a problem.

Took thermostat out, cleaned the shit out of it and de-rustified it - No problems since :)

i.e. when the car is just regular driving, it is able to cope with the x% of water flow, but when the car gets hotter with increased consistent revs/load, the x% just isn't enough circulation to keep the temps down?

Yeah I totally hear you bro.

Best way to test whether its opening or not is to pull it out and put it in a bowl of boiling water, see if the sucker opens. Good thing to check first as it's alot easier than fabbing a fan shroud and then realizing that airflow through the radiator wasn't the problem after all.

They're so cheap you could almost bang one in there for fun.