Suggest a turbo for 300+rwkw out of a 4age

[PRIMRK]

Im building up a AE86 trackster and have to goal of 300kw or more in mind.

At the moment im looking at what turbos will give me this sort of power at what boost as well as when they start spooling?

Has anyone here had a play with larger turbos on the 4AG block?

Yes I know that there will be a large amount of lag to the point of people saying it will be undrivable but I will be putting measures into place to combat this so don’t every one keep bringing this up.

What sort of boos can the 4AG blocks handle? Im trying to guage if I should grout and sleve my block to handle the higher pressure.

If any one can help here its much appreciated.

[reecegze]

Hi , fully rebuilt a/f parts on 4agze smallport bottom end , bigport head with works - custom inlet manifold ,cams/gears + 70mm t/b compression around 9.4:1 and with a/f ecu can yield 269kw on 23 psi. Thats with gt30 series turbo and custom .49 rear. Lag is up to around 0rpm to 4000rpm and full boost by 5500rpm.

This setup would be horrible on the street and this is in FWD format also.

Should give rough idea of the 300kw mark
















l

[--Redwork--]

you could almost make 300rwkw with a 3071.. But easist and best option if you are chasing that much pwoer is get a 3076 52trim with .78 divided rear housing. basically a HKS 3037. but the divided housing helps it sppol better... Always go for divided housing when you get a 3071 or 3076. Means abit more stuffing around but ppl who have done it swear by it..
You'll need a good head/vavle job and some decent sized cams 264 ect.. go to much bigger cam than that and it gets laggy (ier)..

No idea about block strenght... I know they're heavy for how small they are. :)
Depends on the aplication to... don't really want to grout fill it if you plan to use it often.. sure it would create cooling issues.. A good crank girdle probably wouldn't go astray either..
And I still would expect full boost till after 5000rpm.

[--Redwork--]

reece.. would that have been a t28 .49 housing machined to suit the 30 series dimentions...????
I think that probably would have made it worse for lag. especially if the exhaust wheel had to be trimmed alittle to fit the housing...


On a completely different topic...
4age at 8000rpm moves 12800000cc of air a minute. (this is totally rough as this changes with everything)
SR20 at 6500rpm moves 13000000cc of air..
Rough idea of the air flow through the engines... you could work them both out at the same RMP, get the percentage difference and then work out the boost threshold for a certain turbo buy taking known info on there results on an Sr20 engine..

[70XIN]

I doubt a 3071R would get up to 300rwkw on a 4A, even with alternative fuels.

3076R as a minimum, but probably a 35R. It will be so fucking boring to drive though, and when you do get on boost you'll need warmed semis to keep traction even in 5th. You'll probably still need to run E85 or some form of race fuel to keep detonation at bay, because you'll be running a fair bit of boost (25-40psi).

What measures are you planning to keep lag at bay? Nitrous i hope?

[70XIN]

And at 300rwkw you are definitely at the stage of cracking the block. You will most definitely need sleeves (and someone in aus that actually has lots of experience with installing them <- this will be the harder bit).

[sun_moon]

300rwkw !! holly shit.... is this robbie bolger ??

:P

[--Redwork--]

OMG.. 35r would be sooooooooooo sloooooooooowwwww... Would be a complete was of time. you be beaten by someone runing a $300 second hand t28..

Toxin I never said a 3071 WOULD make 300.. I said it would get close.. and They easily make that much on e85... ppl are make 270-289kw with 2871 on e85 (sr20 though)

[shift_rook]

why not run sr? if it's going to be a track car then i dare say you'd be much better off.... 300 on an sr has been done many a time

[Skylar]

2jz can do 800hp on stock internals, would be cool if a 4age could hold half that. One dude in Perth filled his rb30 block 30% with grout and said it made no difference to cooling performance.

I take it you are going to run anti-lag and you should probably run a variable geometry turbo. It will make boost early enough that way.

[70XIN]

Wasn't having a go at you Redwork, was just throwing out my opinion :P

Skylar: I don't see a real point in grout-filling the block .. most of the heat (and funnily enough where 4A's seem to crack) is up the top of the bore. That said, it does work for some motors.



OP would be better off going a 7AGTE, with a reasonable sized turbo and sensible (~20psi) amounts of boost. A perfect example is the green KE from NZ, it's an absolute monster, and a good example of the absolute most power you'd want in a AE/KE weight car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AaFNXr-s30

If you look at the rest of his circuit videos, it's fucking amazing, and from the looks of it still fairly fun to drive :)

[lo_rolla]

Cubes. That's all I'll add to this.

[--Redwork--]

VQ30det.. ftw.

[reecegze]

The .49 rear was a custom from precision or gcg i think dont no 100% specs, He was at the last toymod dyno day , very impressive setup to yield 270kw on 23psi. He wanted to add more boost to crack 300kw but to late in arvo.

This car would be fun to drive on autobahn only :)



reece.. would that have been a t28 .49 housing machined to suit the 30 series dimentions...????
I think that probably would have made it worse for lag. especially if the exhaust wheel had to be trimmed alittle to fit the housing...


On a completely different topic...
4age at 8000rpm moves 12800000cc of air a minute. (this is totally rough as this changes with everything)
SR20 at 6500rpm moves 13000000cc of air..
Rough idea of the air flow through the engines... you could work them both out at the same RMP, get the percentage difference and then work out the boost threshold for a certain turbo buy taking known info on there results on an Sr20 engine..

[--Redwork--]

Any way you look at it.. 300rwkw out of 4a is damn impressive.. and no matter what you do it'll be arse to drive.. antilag/nitrous can only go so far..

I'm goin for close to 300 in my SR build I would consider a 3076 the absolute largest that I would go..
I've driven a freinds SR with a 3082 and was horrible... had nothing down low.. I think i could have beaten it on foot while it was off boost.

[Frak]

Cubes. That's all I'll add to this.

If you want more inches......stroke it!

[--Redwork--]

I stroke it all the time... doesn't seem to have any effect on my engine though.. :)

[Dongaz]

I do agree with most of the other guys, even though a high hp 4ag would be cool the SR is a better option.
I should have got another SR for mine instead of selling it off and spending all this money on my 4agte...I won't make ridiculous power but it will definitely keep up with alot of things.
The SR will eventually be a cheaper build and provide more hp especially if you sink the same amount of money into it.

[Dongaz]

Tox should also be able to vouch for me on this one. Time and money definitely play a part. Oh and booting your parents car/s out of the garage for yours to stay in. HAHA

[PRIMRK]

Hey all thanks for your advice.

Im going to be sticking with the 4AGE as the base for this, i understand that an SR would be easyer to hit my goal power with but it just not what i want.

Have been looking at doing a 1.8 stroker kit but havent found a stockest for this yet.

I've found some one running a turbotronics GT-K 550 on a 4AGE at something like 2.35 bar boost and getting just under 380kw at the rears, anyone used any GT-K's before? havent heared good or bad about them?!?

Keep any info on high boosted 4A's coming!

[70XIN]

Turbonetics = China made, US assembled turbos. They make fairly decent numbers, but are pretty hit-and-miss, a fair few of them die for no reason at all. Very popular in the states, because they are a percentage cheaper than garrett, but buying one here in aus they don't make any sense.

Btw 1.8 stroker is just a 7AFE bottom-end with a 4A head. You should be able to get a 7A from almost ANY local wrecker.

[Skylar]

70XIN, I have no idea why people grout blocks. I heard of it before but never looked into it.

So, here's a datalog of an evo'ish car, running a 4g63.
Look at graph 1 logging throttle position, RPM, and boost. After flooring from cruise it goes from 70kpa to 160kpa/9psi in less than a second. That's at only 3000rpm, and boost tops out at wastegate pressure of 14psi on the graph. Dude reckons it does 24psi by 4400rpm but I KNOW that amount of boost can be brought on sooner. Turbo's about the same size as a GT35 so it'll crack 300rwkw on a 2l for sure and with not much lag at all.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/0/2/5/43065.jpg

[PRIMRK]

Ok so Garrett is the way to go in Au, fair enough.

Come to think about it the cars ive seen the turbotronics on have all be from yanksvill...

[Skylar]

I dunno dude. A guy I know has a 9sec VL with a 2JZ.

I asked him about the turbo.
He said turbonetics. I said why not garrett?
He said it's better, makes more power and spools a lot quicker.
It's only the opinion of one guy but he's happy with his turbonetics. and there's borg warner turbos as well which they claim spools quicker than garrett stuff. and garrett based units by precision.

[ae71]

Have been looking at doing a 1.8 stroker kit but havent found a stockest for this yet.


CYB make a full kit. crank, rods, pistons (low/high comp options).

ITS NOT CHEAP, but if you have the $$ behind you to attempt such a feat then it maybe worth considering.

[--Redwork--]

Haven't heard anything good about turbonetics stuff... Stay with garrett, borg warner or trust and you'll be home free...
I would think a normal 7a bottom end would be fine for a cubes increase in this application... your obviously going to have to rebuild what ever engine you chose anyway.. so forgies and rods is a given..

This all raises the next question.. what GEARBOX do you plan to run.???
you can get away with skimping alittle if theres no plans to run big rubber, but what ever you chose still has to be well strong..

[PRIMRK]

ill be running a W58 gearbox, aparently they are good for up to 350KW

Found one place that makes the 4a to w5* bellhousing, if people know of any others post here so i can check them out.

[--Redwork--]

W58 and 350 kw.. really.???.. Once again it come down to application... and why are you chasing 300 anyways..???

300rwkw out a 4a is goin to be useless for anything other than drag racing.. and then a manual box would be pointless.. Unless its a dog box or a lenco/g-force/richmond/liberty ect..

[Sam-Q]

ill be running a W58 gearbox, aparently they are good for up to 350KW

Found one place that makes the 4a to w5* bellhousing, if people know of any others post here so i can check them out.

it's hard to even put an estimation on what a gearbox can handle, it's the shock loads that kill it. Also who makes this one bellhousing you found? if it's dellows then avoid it like the plauge

[PRIMRK]

Ive found the AJPS one
http://www.ajps.com.au/parts/w5x_bellhousing.asp

any one used this befor?

[slide86]

get onto toymods and have a look, there is a few threads with several guys that have achieved these sort of figures

[orange32]

I* have an old zoom magazine which had a cortina with a 4agte which was expected to make over 300kw (wasn't dynoed yet). I'm pretty sure it used a gt3540 turbo, not sure on specs.

I'll see if I can find it.

[reecegze]

I wouldn't bother using the w58 with you suspected 300kw setup they are only rated for 300hp. I've been thru 2 already and I am Just under 200kws. Go rb25/z32 or custom box. Sounds like this is going to be a drag ae86 now hehe

[--Redwork--]

Backyarder has 600hp atw in his car from memory.. but thats race fuel, nitrous, 30psi + and DRAG ONLY..
Can't remember any specs of his engine though...

[hachirusto]

I* have an old zoom magazine which had a cortina with a 4agte which was expected to make over 300kw (wasn't dynoed yet). I'm pretty sure it used a gt3540 turbo, not sure on specs.

I'll see if I can find it.

that guy is a member on toymods the engine is pretty insane

[reecegze]

Its 350hp4agte

[Instigator]

300kw4agte I think it is, I went looking for his profile the other day when I read this but couldn't find it.

What are you doing with this "trackster"?

A 300kw 4age is going to be pretty useless for almost everything except standing next to your car waving your dyno sheet around Brian O'Connor style :DD

If you want to do it from a development/interest perspective then go your hardest, can I interest you in sponsoring any of my cars while you're throwing money away? :pinchme:

Otherwise take the advice you've been given. An SR20 once fitted will walk all over a hypo-4agte for half the cost. Not to mention the aftermarket support and popularity = cheep cheep parts. Gearboxes being one for starters.

[resol]

http://www.tonyrigoliperformance.com.au/toyota-corolla_turbo_blue.html

tony rigoli has built a few 4agte's this one i found on his site. but they made a drag ae82 a little while back that was running NOS and upwards of 40PSI making something stupid like 500HP.

the motor can take it, but when your pushing the limits that much you can to figure out if you can afford to maintain such a high strung motor. and you have to be rpepared to buy a few blocks until you find one in the best possible condition to build up, crack tests etc. same goes for crank (unless you go after market).

check out toymods, theres probably more imformation (and better people to ask) on there.


-dan

[--Redwork--]

Trolling the net trying to find info on Backyaders ae82... having trouble... :(
I knew it made big power but nearly 600wkw.. WOW !!!

[Konakid]

Why???????

[ke_70]

who cares go for! id personally go for a 300kw 3s myself

[Sprinter86]

^^^Agreed. 3s sound like the answer

[DX20VT]

OP would be better off going a 7AGTE, with a reasonable sized turbo and sensible (~20psi) amounts of boost. A perfect example is the green KE from NZ, it's an absolute monster, and a good example of the absolute most power you'd want in a AE/KE weight car.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AaFNXr-s30

If you look at the rest of his circuit videos, it's fucking amazing, and from the looks of it still fairly fun to drive :)

haha, you had to pick that video?
that would be my car. And it's not even close to being any good at a drag event.
The diff mounts were bent, and so there was not traction but only found out when they broke at another event. Still ran a 12.7 @ 127Mph, slower than my best time of a 12.3 @ 110 with my old engine.

A 7A build is not as hard as it seems. 99% of my engine are toyota parts.
Still on standard 4AGZE pistons, Standard head and cams,
Only parts special in there is the con-rods, and thats only for reliability.
325KW at 20psi.

I would chose what I have over an SR20DET anyday, as the only one that I have races against that have been quicker have not been reliable.


I wouldn't bother using the w58 with you suspected 300kw setup they are only rated for 300hp. I've been thru 2 already and I am Just under 200kws. Go rb25/z32 or custom box. Sounds like this is going to be a drag ae86 now hehe

I run the W series of gearboxes. At 18psi thay will last for a seasons racing, but at 20psi, the dont last one race weekend. I fitted a kit to mine as I dont like R154's etc as they change like a truck,
and this gave me the strength reliability and closer ratio's.
Here for a link for those interested in the gearbox.
http://www.gohardbits.co.nz/gearboxes.php

[fixeruperer]

do it man, build a big ass 4ag, but you will have no power before 4500-5000 rpm like none so be prepared for mass amounts of clutch kicks or just keeping it singing above 5k.

300kw is atleast 20psi and atleast 8ooorpm on pump fuel, so you need everything to accommodate that.

dx20vt

did you change your ratio's, first gear is poinltess in the 58's. ?

[Gunner]

This is why
ZluTRDb6M_c

11,000rpm burnout anyone
jR8tBu4Vheg

doms rigolis ex wifes car
Pqf5ZBfN2Ok

There is an issue of zoom with backyarders car, quite a piece of engineering, cunt to work on though.

[DX20VT]

dx20vt
did you change your ratio's, first gear is poinltess in the 58's. ?


Yeah,
1st is now way higher.
Shift point from 1st to 2nd gear is now between 90 to 100Kmh

[fixeruperer]

sweet, thats great. Ill email GHB.com about a gear set .
ill prolly drop you a few pm's aswell about ratios.

cheers.

[DX20VT]

sweet, thats great. Ill email GHB.com about a gear set .
ill prolly drop you a few pm's aswell about ratios.

cheers.

I had trouble with the high first gear at the start, with the std ratio's I could keep up with the Evo's off the start line when i got the start right,
and with the new box it took me a while to figure out how to launch it again. Just took another 1000rpm and a slight ride on the clutch for the first 1/4 sec, and when i got it right it now takes off as well or better than it used to.

Tell GHB I told you about the box if you contact them and and will tell you all you want to know and much more.

[fixeruperer]

ok no probs,
yeh your new gear set would be similar to taking off in 2nd with the standard 58 gear set and i can take of in 2nd anyway in traffic.
which is what i was going to do at the drags, (launch in 2nd) but im scared of stripping teeth (ive only just rebuilt the box aswell)

ill give ghb a call and go from there.
as im leaning more towards the drags, i was actually going to put a 4 speed jatco in, but if i can get a long 1st gear im set, as i cross the line in 4th gear and rev limiter, sometimes i had to shift into 5th so if i play with ratio's it will be perfect for the 1/4 and some circuit work.

cheers man.

[lolwat]

2jz can do 800hp on stock internals, would be cool if a 4age could hold half that.

One of the guys at TAFE who does mainly dyno tuning, has a 2J at the moment stock bottem end and its handly 960 something (when i saw him last week)

[--Redwork--]

2jz can do 800hp on stock internals, would be cool if a 4age could hold half that.

Member on toymods makes 283 kw with a stock bottomend 4age "apparently".. how close to 400hp you wanna get.?? 283kw/380hp is not far off..

[Skylar]

I seen 2jz's push more than 800. The one I'm thinking of made 980, IIRC but it let go within a year. Not what you call reliable.

Next question is, how long has/will that 4a last at that power level?

Redwork, Can you link me to his build thread or whatever. or just post the dyno sheet 'cause that's all I'm interested in.

[--Redwork--]

Sklar. These is no build thread or proof from that member that i have found to indicate he's not telling porkies..
He just states that he's made that much on a rebuilt stock bottom end.. Hence why I said "apparently"

I'll be shooting for 200rwkw in mine but thats vastly differnt to 300.. I still have to make a turbo desicion myself..

[fixeruperer]

there is a build thread on toymods......
he speaks the truth.

[Fusion]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWGuhkSRTvo&feature=related

[pornstrv]

on a 200sx 3071 made 400kws
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVRefx81sSM

[Skylar]

but you can't say 400kw was the doing of a 3071. There's NOS on that car too which made the power reading higher than 3071 alone.

Matt Powers' car made 507 on a dynapack with a KA24 but I doubt that a SR20 would run that without some real high duration cams which sorta makes it a dyno car and not a track car so much.

[biggo]

buy something like a 3076 and cry when it blows up cos you have a shitty 1.6lt

Who the hell chases power these days? Id be happy with 150hp in the 3s