The 'WHY YOU NEED FENDER BRACES' post

[keiichi]

Not really an article but thought I should put this here as an FYI for anyone that has wondered what's the point to fender braces and do I really need bracing...

yes, yes you do.

http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/9879/dsc00127.jpg (http://img807.imageshack.us/i/dsc00127.jpg/)

http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2170/dsc00125bi.jpg (http://img215.imageshack.us/i/dsc00125bi.jpg/)

My car was perfectly straight, then I went and got silvia coil-overs, running 8.7kg/mm on the front with the shox set to max... just some daily driving, a few potholes and I could swear I could see the nose of the car tipping up for a split second on rough bits of road.

So, I took the fender off to contemplate how I should make a fender brace and discovered a nice crease where the lateral frame meets the longitudinal.

Hope this helps :P

[marvis]

Any other damage?

[DR86TY]

jesus, thats rough.

it should just buff out :)

[Andy San]

and that's why 8kg springs are a little pointless on a car without a cage/strut tower triangulating... just bends everything else instead of moving the suspension

[keiichi]

Any other damage?

not that i have discovered yet.

[sundee]

DAM! their is a 1st time for everything isnt their... brace and avoid pot holes..

[keiichi]

DAM! their is a 1st time for everything isnt their... brace and avoid pot holes..

well that would mean swerving all over the road in sydney.

[DR86TY]

i do that every day, its quite enjoyable as i never follow the same path to work haha

[keiichi]

i do that every day, its quite enjoyable as i never follow the same path to work haha

lol good point... and it keeps you on your toes.

[DOG the rolla hunter]

i wanted 8 kg springs,now the DOG is scared.

[AJPS]

i wanted 8 kg springs,now the DOG is scared.

dont do it

[keiichi]

i wanted 8 kg springs,now the DOG is scared.

just get fender braces.... if you think about it, the only support between all the force going into the top of the struts to the rest of the car is some sheet metal... infact, make sure your braces are bloody good, bolt on shit imho is fail... i may be wrong, but yeh.

[AJPS]

just get fender braces.... if you think about it, the only support between all the force going into the top of the struts to the rest of the car is some sheet metal... infact, make sure your braces are bloody good, bolt on shit imho is fail... i may be wrong, but yeh.

+1 for welding on

[keiichi]

well i went and bought 9 meters of 65x35x3 square bar today and 1 meter of flat bar will make fender brace, strut brace and boot brace all weld in, and getting urethane foam for the frame... should fix the body flex a bit :D

[blair]

dont do it

go 9kg instead! :P

[MR 86]

Geez the silvia guys run 12kg and 15kg springs quite regularly, i can only imagine the result of street driving.

I like the 6kg front and 6kg rear for a hachi, tried a few setups and best all round street/track imo.

[70XIN]

Rob has had 9kg front springs for the last 2/3 years, no bendage

[keiichi]

Rob has had 9kg front springs for the last 2/3 years, no bendage

no thats right, the spring rate by itself isnt enough to bend the frame... when i bought these coilovers, they didnt come with the adjusters and someone had set the shox to max, so there was virtually no movement... i have since got a hold of some adjusters, set the shox back to about 7 out of 25 for daily driving, and although i wouldnt use this setting for drifting it works for daily driving. still very stiff and causing trouble for the shell. hits bumps with a crash instead of a nice thump :P

[Jdm-Mcc]

WOWZERS! mad bit of bendage :)

[mack 10]

Face Palm.... Half you guys are better off running 2x4 blocks of wood...

[Sam-Q]

looks like a repair of some accident damage to me, but I could be wrong

[keiichi]

Face Palm.... Half you guys are better off running 2x4 blocks of wood...

thats not how you make bracing - look it up

[LittleRedSpirit]

If you werent noticing warped or binding panels then Id say that that is pre existing. Maybe someone kinked it and yanked it near enough to straight and just put the panels back on. Have you had them off before?

Edit, Look at all the crud thats settled there, its been like that for a long time.

[af300e]

So if you only need fender braces for 8kg springs then you don't need fender braces. 8kg springs in a street 86 is totally wrong. 8kg fronts in a grip track 86 is totally wrong. 8kg springs in a drift 86 maybe? I don't know anything about drift.

If you are going to run 8kg on the street, chuck the springs and run it on the jounce rubbers. They are probably a more suitable spring rate. Plus it'll be sick low uleh.

EDIT: Have to agree with the stack damage sentiments. you'd have to notice something on the guard if it happened whilst that particular guard was fitted.

[Dpig]

bog and sand ;) all fixed. haha nah that mustsuck man. defs getting them for my car

[marvis]

LOL @ all these people hating on stiff spring rates.

Never been an issue before.

[keiichi]

If you werent noticing warped or binding panels then Id say that that is pre existing. Maybe someone kinked it and yanked it near enough to straight and just put the panels back on. Have you had them off before?

Edit, Look at all the crud thats settled there, its been like that for a long time.

this was the first time the fenders were removed, it even had the factory standard goo under the seem.

there is no other accident damage i can see and im certain none of the panels have been replaced.

i found that the other side was the same but not as bad.

i think people are overestimating just how much it has actually bent... i would personally only estimate about a degree or two if that. surely it can cause a crease from a shock then spring back to its original position.

i was unable to notice any bendage on the external, but those fenders can flex around alot anyway.

[FAST EDDIE]

that just looks like a collapsing point in the skirt, not an actual bend, if it was bent it would have bent the side aswell but may just be the pic

just because it has origional guards doesnt mean it hasnt been punted in the front.

out of all the 86s ive worked on and owned never seen one collapse on an unrepaied chassis

[keiichi]

that just looks like a collapsing point in the skirt, not an actual bend, if it was bent it would have bent the side aswell but may just be the pic

just because it has origional guards doesnt mean it hasnt been punted in the front.

out of all the 86s ive worked on and owned never seen one collapse on an unrepaied chassis

you may be right, which would be a good thing ofcourse.

its not an ae86 though btw, its a corona.

the pic doesn't really show it but where it looks smeared ive run my hand across to see if it had been ruffed up and theres a few pinch/ripples there like crumpled paper so to speak.

is there actually supposed to be a built in weak point where x meats y incase of an accident? would make sense... and im pretty sure i know what you mean, i can put a better pic up tomorrow if you like in better light with it cleaned so we can get some clarity.

[keiichi]

Problem solved

http://img205.imageshack.us/img205/8162/dsc00129m.jpg (http://img205.imageshack.us/i/dsc00129m.jpg/)

[Konakid]

Dude are you high?

I've been running 9kg front springs and stiff shocks in my daliy driven/thrashed corona for over a year, done road trips in it on the shittest, bumpiest highways out there and it is fine. Only stiffening is a strutbrace.

[keiichi]

whats your point?

i knew someone who ran 12kg front in his ra65 with NO bracing.

[Konakid]

Your ruined chassis is the result of a crash, not running stiff springs.

[keiichi]

its not the chassis its the frame... its not ruined, its a tiny bend, its nothing compared to my old car. ok it was a crash. i wasnt there though so cant prove that.

*edit* take note though, nothing else is bent ive looked and looked and cant find anything else bent and all the panels, lights etc seem to me certainly original.

having said that though, it is just as possible it was from a crash.

can you suggest a reason why fender braces are pointless though and prove that there is no longitudinal flex caused by heavy front springs? much faith in your flimsy toyota shell you have.

[munchen]

i dont recall him saying that fender braces are pointless...

[Dom86]

To me it looks like a factory crease. As in when the machine press' the sheet of metal, that crease froms to take up slack, or to make a bend somewhere else.
The reason I think this is, for one, if you look down the pic toward the front of car, you can see a similar crease. Another reason is you said it was on the other side too. That says factory to me.
And I'm sure the 20 something year old paint would have pulled away from the metal with such a deep sharp crease.
I think your braces are overkill, but they should work if you welded them in properly :P
I'm saying this all purley based on what I can see in the pics.
Those crease are not uncommon.

[Dom86]

Have you had a look at another corona by chance? To see if its just yours that has this.

[--Redwork--]

It just looks like the factory stamped failure point.. They have these in lots of places.. Just look at the under side of your bonnet.. they're every where..

[KE70]

Needs more weld.

Also is your other quarter the same?

[FAST EDDIE]

didnt realuise it was a cornoa but much the same chassis design anyway, just be careful running fender braces on the street you remove the correct way for the car to collapse if involved in a serious accident, on the other hand if u cause an accident and hurt/kill someone isurance company may void insurance if it gets investigated!!
where you welded the brace on wont have much help minimising flex because of where you have welded it on along the skirt edge, if you look at the design of other skirt braces they are on the outer firewall to underneath the skirt brace.

[keiichi]

To me it looks like a factory crease. As in when the machine press' the sheet of metal, that crease froms to take up slack, or to make a bend somewhere else.
The reason I think this is, for one, if you look down the pic toward the front of car, you can see a similar crease. Another reason is you said it was on the other side too. That says factory to me.
And I'm sure the 20 something year old paint would have pulled away from the metal with such a deep sharp crease.
I think your braces are overkill, but they should work if you welded them in properly :P
I'm saying this all purley based on what I can see in the pics.
Those crease are not uncommon.

yes i see what youre saying... there is one point in the pic which is what youre saying about crease point. but on that point there are ripples/pinches which was what the pic was supposed to show. given, not a very good pic sorry :P
the pinches on the other side arent the same and are less.
there isnt really any point on the metal under the guards, its more like the metal is stained a grayish colour, not actually layered, as i noticed when i went to remove it when i welded it.
yes my braces are overkill, i do that often for some reason, i over think things. but im mostly concerned with it working than anything else.

[keiichi]

didnt realuise it was a cornoa but much the same chassis design anyway, just be careful running fender braces on the street you remove the correct way for the car to collapse if involved in a serious accident, on the other hand if u cause an accident and hurt/kill someone isurance company may void insurance if it gets investigated!!
where you welded the brace on wont have much help minimising flex because of where you have welded it on along the skirt edge, if you look at the design of other skirt braces they are on the outer firewall to underneath the skirt brace.

it is a concern what you mention about the insurance... i never buy insurance aside from what is mandatory but i do consider myself a very good driver, very careful on the street and have never been in an accident - avoided many.
*edit* in fact, none of my cars have ever been roadworthy, always random stuff welded to it with random mismatched suspension riding 40mil off the road.

the pic doesnt show properly where i have welded it but at the front of the brace is some 65x3 flat bar folded over the skirt and welded all around. its also welded to both door hinges, the underside of the bottom of the brace and several other places along the brace. i also used the highest tensile weld metal i could get, very strong and good peno stuff.
i personally felt that this was more than adequate but if you think there are other places i should weld please let me know.

[keiichi]

Reference

welded in three places (well two really but three points mounted), or in 98% of the cases, bolt in in three places.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/0/8/49612.jpg (http://img530.imageshack.us/i/fenderbraceultraracing1.jpg/)

[FAST EDDIE]

not having a go at u mate just trying to be helpful, that fender brace is on a different car and the skirt desgn is different, looks like s13 where the strut tower outer is butted to the skirt where the weld is!!

[keiichi]

not having a go at u mate just trying to be helpful, that fender brace is on a different car and the skirt desgn is different, looks like s13 where the strut tower outer is butted to the skirt where the weld is!!

no i know, just trying to be informational as possible, i appreciate the input.

where or how should i be mounting the fender brace on my car if to do it properly? all the ones i see, still mount to the skirt outer... i guess the best way is to somehow connect the front of the brace directly to the strut tower?

cheers

[Sam-Q]

I believe that pressed in part is what is considered to be part of the crumple zone.

[DRFT]

haha how would you feel. that must really suck. ive got custom made coilovers at either 8 or 6 in the front and its really stiff, i swear i can feel the car twist when i drive up awkward driveways hills etc slowly

[assassin10000]

That's because it does.

When I mounted fender braces I noticed an immediate difference just backing out of a sloped driveway, and I three wheeled where I didn't before.

Andrew

[ae71]

That's because it does.

When I mounted fender braces I noticed an immediate difference just backing out of a sloped driveway, and I three wheeled where I didn't before.

Andrew

crazy how much difference just a strut brace makes! i really noticed more planted mid corner and sharper turn in.

[redsprinter]

just a thought by bracing that and not running a full weld in cage you will most likley be transfering the force some where else ..

[assassin10000]

Yes it does, right to the spring/shock/coilover where it should be.

The passenger compartment/A-pillar is so much thicker & stronger there's not much chance for flex or movement there.

My friend Jon and I came up with these for the AE86 a while ago:
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/50699.jpg


I've had Ueo style (flatbar) and a round/tube style, these are the 3rd version and should be even better. IMO properly made bracing (or reinforcing such as stitch welding), such as these are one of the most overlooked upgrades to a proper chassis setup.

Andrew

[LittleRedSpirit]

I have proof how much coin they save when you have an accident too. Not to mention the integrity they add to the vehicle.

[keiichi]

that brace looks pretty sweet, did you make that assassin? sexy fab work. whats the lock tab looking thing?

[munchen]

that tab is where it bolts next to the strut tower, id imagine its designed to spread the load alittle

[keiichi]

actually i think it has a thread in it and youre supposed to put it inside the skirt so you have something to bolt to

[assassin10000]

^ Kinda both.

It's design allows you to slip it in the already present opening in the chassis/fender rail to thread the bolts in once you've drilled two relatively small holes. That way it's not a giant pain in the ass to install (IE drilling cutting larger holes below/behind to access, or having to weld anything on). It also spreads the load on that part of the chassis making it a stronger mounting point.

My design, but my friends work/welding. He's a structural welder (awnings/buildings/overhangs/etc) with 20+ years of experience.

Here's a pic showing it installed on another guys car, you can see the end of the 'tab' in it:
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/0/1/9/50835.jpg

Andrew

[Instigator]

I'm all for mods as much as the next bloke but if you are ever involved in an accident on the road where someone is seriously injured or killed you WILL be raped in the arse with no lube.

[keiichi]

I'm all for mods as much as the next bloke but if you are ever involved in an accident on the road where someone is seriously injured or killed you WILL be raped in the arse with no lube.

then you will get raped in the ass with no lube for having coil-overs, strut brace, half cage, etc etc anyway - so, drive a stock car or dont worry about it.

[Instigator]

Maybe, but those things are a lot less obvious to the structural engineer when he's looking for the reason your shitbox decapitated little old Ezma Mae as she collected her morning newspaper.

[20v ae71]

this is why you need braces. and no this car was not involved in any sort of collision whatsoever:

[AJPS]

wow!

why you need softer springs/spot welding?

far out!

Seriously never seen that on a corolla.....

Even ones that have been rallied/jumped etc....

[keiichi]

this is why you need braces. and no this car was not involved in any sort of collision whatsoever:

^ my thoughts exactly - that looks sweet lol

[keiichi]

Maybe, but those things are a lot less obvious to the structural engineer when he's looking for the reason your shitbox decapitated little old Ezma Mae as she collected her morning newspaper.

well if you run over poor little ezma mae and decapitate her with your deadly fender braces while she collects the morning paper cause youre doing 100km/h manjis down the main street at 7am then you deserve to be raped with an unlubed rusty old nightstick by the long arm of the law

[Dish]

If that kind of shit is going to kill someone in another car then chances are you were going to kill them anyway.

Have been looking into making some at work for mine. Decided on flat bar similar to the previously pictured set-up. I've been running 8kg fronts in mine for quite a while and haven't noticed anything structural and I drive on some pretty horrible roads everyday.

There is the feintest crease near my drivers tower but that was caused by an r31 at about 60km/h, so if anything around your towers is falling apart for a daily driver, your car is a bucket or you need to stop taking the dirt tracks to work 7 days a week.

[keiichi]

i should update this - in the op i mentioned i have 8.7kg springs in the front - some people are saying thats crazy others are saying its nothing. well, i did some fiddling with the coil-overs and it turns out the previous owner had tightened up the preload on the springs like a mad man.... fixed it up and now it feels like i gone down a couple kg/mm. so, i vote bending the skirt still plausible considering the effective spring rate would be like 11kg/mm - but not if you have mere 8 or 9 springs.