power up mods for the 20V

[4A-G3]

[SAMS EDIT] all 20v atmo power increase mods in here



hey everyone

I have just bought an ae86 with a BT20V in it

I just did the ecu to a Wolf 3D ecu all done and tuned by Sprinterman, Car made around 86rwkws and i want to bump it up to around 130- 150rwkws, want to know if the following mods will increase power by that much

20V 304deg 9mm Camshaft (Pair) - Toda
20V AE111 Blacktop Adjustable Cam Gear Set - Toda
multi-angle valve seat job
Valve springs
port and polish of the head
another fine tune

I have about $5500 - $6000 to spend on the engine alone
Any other ideas on how to get the kind of power im looking for (Im a P plater so turbos ect ect are out of the question)

[charged]

The only way to make 130-150rwkw is turbo maybe those mods will yield a little over 100kw but not much more, the heads on the BT are very good already so a port wont achieve much, Cams may help but BT cams are fairly aggressive already. I would raise comp and run on e85 as that will give you about 10kw. Better of going a 7age-9age route for NA

[4A-G3]

So there's no other mods to get that kind of power out of the blacktop spinterman told me just with cams and a few other goodies I can make 113kws at the wheels he was telling me about his one that he did just a stock silvertop with the same ecu he put in mine the wold 3d and just rebuilt it with stock internals and he made 123kws at the wheels

[charged]

On my engine I have Autronic ECU, comp of 13.5:1, headers, trumpets, toda pistons, spool rods, ported head, 440cc inj and tuned for e85 and it made 105rwkw on a mainline dyno, my brothers silvertop with stock internals and tuned for e85 made 103rwkw on a dynappac dyno which reads higher than a mainline. 123kw ....... must be a very high reading dyno

[xero]

by sprinterman you mean john right?

if you can wait about 3 weeks, i'll find out exactly how much power i get out of my high comp 16v he built using similar cams and what not...
as john (charged) said, getting that much power out of a blacktop will require lots of compression, revs and big cams, maybe even E85. but the power figure on a peice of paper doesnt mean squat really, its how it delivers the power. i made a similar figure earlier this year and i could easily keep up with mates with much more powerful cars both on the street and track.


EDIT: john yours and your brothers wouldnt be tuned for out right power though? (being a race car though you do want every last pony you can get)

[Delazy]

Im suprised by chargeds engine numbers. Ive seen a stock ae101 20v with an exhaust and adaptronic make 96rwkw on a mainline dyno. Let alone with those kind of mods :s

Ive got a built ae111 20v 7age im hoping to crack the 115-120rwkw mark on 98ron...even then the thing owes me a mint...

My only advice ill give is be sure you want to drop that kind of money on a built n/a motor...as quite alot of people will more than likely find themself disappointed...6k on an sr20 would get me 270rwkw...10k on my 7age will hopefully get me 120rwkw lol...big difference

[fantapants]

the only 4a i have heard of coming close to those figures na was beau with the trd replica. his was bought with what was meant to be a cataloge of trd parts and made 120rwkw repeatably, but then i think he found out it didnt have all the good bits anyways?

its a long time ago, but he is still around so might be worth hitting him up for what might have been the secret lol.

fwiw my 20v silver made 87rwkw with a motec and open trumpets.

in a similar guise it made 104rwkw on a different dyno. dyno's are just a tool.... like me :)

[charged]

As fantapants has stated dynos are a tuning tool that is all HP is irrelevant. I will be putting mine on a dynapac early next year with hopefully some big kelford cams and see what it does.

Ours are tuned for ever last bit of HP we can get but safely.

I know from my last engine to my new one with more comp etc its 12 secs faster around Bathurst and has a lot more sniff everywhere, I was passing a lot of cars I couldn't pass the previous year

At Bathurst in 2009 I was the slightly faster than the yellow and blue alfa and slower than the red alfa and slower than the jag.

In this video with the new motor at Bathurst in 2010 I can pass all of them easily, so on paper there isnt much difference from old to new but on the track there is plenty :)

FWIW MY mate runs a EK civic in IPRA with a B18C 1800cc engine with decent exhuast, quad throttles and a hondata computer and that makes 115 front wheel kilowatts.

ZYKmUvTfYvg

[Delazy]

Beaus motor was a freak...but yeh from memory it didnt end up having half the bits he thought it did...believe gunner ended up with most of the parts and sold them on including the carillo rods and toms throttles...

[Gunner]

^^^True, the engine I got was stock, apart from the throttles, headers, and head work, there wasn't much else done.

But no one will ever be able to put that back together. The head is on a drag spec 20v, someone here has the stock rods and pistons, I still have the block, the throttles went to adeliade from memory, the carillos are in sydney, delazy, has the valve train, the headers went interstate as well, but yeah, big power apparently can be made with a stock bottom end.

[4A-G3]

so for the money i want to spend and the power i want to make im better off changing to 3sge BEAMS engine because i had that in mind but i think it needs a mod plate and i cant drive it if it does but im willing to take the risk

[Delazy]

to a point yes you are quite abit better off with a beams...

but even then you are chasing quite large numbers from a BEAMS n/a...you'd spent most your budget on buying the motor/aftermarket ecu and installation...

my question is...why do you WANT/NEED 130rwkw+?

if you are attempting to keep up with your nissan owning mates in the traffic light grand prix...sell up and buy a r32 gtr already..

[4A-G3]

i have more to spend then i posted above i just thought spending that or more on a 20v is not a grate idea, ewoo is selling 3sge beams with gearbox ecu everything basically to go into an ae86 got $6000 think i might just grab that one they claimed it made 135rwkws or so

also the reason for the power figure i want is the 20v does the job perfecly fine i just want it to have the little bit more of an edge on the straights let alone the corners. its not like i want to increase the power stupidly, I just want it to make a respectable power figure that im happy with.

i have about 17k to spend but thats for inside out, coilovers, bride seat ect ect, i am a p plater and i am planning on keeping this car until i get into my full license which is in 2 years, i do want to track the car very often so its basically going to be built to go around a track, i dont want to cut any corners and i want everything done first time properly.

so im more in the mix of doing the beams conversion as it has a more decent power output from stock and i can do a few little things to that like cam shafts and cam gears and a very good tune.

i just want to gather peoples ideas on how to go about making power without doing a sr20 conversion and so on im happy with 130 - 150 rwkws out of my ae86, im not in it to beat my mates that have Nissan, Subaru, Mitsubishi or anything like that im in it to be proud of something that i have done my self and to be happy wit the work and money i have spent.

[joeschmo_57]

Jay (buddyparts) made 115rwkw with a stock 16v smallport bottom end with a massively done up head. It (I think) had 304 degree cams, carbs and some other cool shit.

But if you really want power then set yourself up with a 4agze bottom end and a 2781. It will deliver in a straightline, penis comparison etc etc.

[Slimer86]

Charged, Frak tuned your car or watched over the tune at Allan's didn't he?
If so, to the author of this post, please take the information with a pinch of salt, as I am no where near as educated in tuning or any sort of automotive educated as Frak is on this forum.

Afterall this is the internet, where 60% of the information available is pornographic, and the remainder bar a small percentage is just crap.

Ok, a friend of mine has a stock silvertop 20v, with Toda 272, 264 9.2mm cams fitted, microtech mt8 and it made 106fwkw.
Its fantastic to drive, however, I am not sure how much dyno calibration affects the end result, and am awaiting Frak to jump in on this thread :).
The dyno was Bells Auto Service on Main North Rd Prospect, which I believe is a mainline dyno.
Each dyno will have a different reading, and to my understanding, the closest comparisons will be between Dynodynamics dynos in shootout mode.
Speaking with Brenton at 4's and more (mind you a few years ago) a healthy silvertop will output approximately 90ish fwkw. (Confirmation from other users?)
Yes, I am aware it is recored in front wheel kw's.
Having driven my friends car (cams installed and timed by me to Toda specifications) I would say that this is a good street combination, however would I value the judgement of other members with this combination.
Tim Duncan has been in this vehicle, and apart from the pump accel setting being incorrect, the said vehicle pulls extremely hard.

To be really honest, I would much prefer driving a 20v ae86 over a big or small port ae86 as the power deliver is very linear if using vvt, and feels much stonger to drive in the top end.
Turbo on an ae86 sort of throws out the natural neutral balance of the car.
I am wearing my flame suit, so I am well prepared for what is coming, but personally, if you can keep the 20v on song, even in stock form, it is a fantastic combination to run in the chassis of an ae86 with supporting suspension modification.

What are you using the vehicle for?
No point in a high power band if you can't use it right?
Torque wins races, not power.

[4A-G3]

I want the car as a sort of daily driver maybe a weekend cruiser up to Wollongong or something like that, but i also want it to drift in and time attacks at the track.

[jet81j]

mmm 86kw sounds not very good from blacktop :S maybe you should buy a new engine? and spend the bit extra getting a good engine thats tested. sounds like a tied engine with that power

are you running trumpets?

[Gunner]

every stock blacktop I have ever had on the dyno has made between, 80-90kw, he is far from needing a new engine.

[jet81j]

yeah lol guess i mean not buy a new engine but maybe it needs to be freshing'd up. if he has trumpets and good extractors then you should be able to get into the 90's surely

[jet81j]

also my silvertop was completely stock with a e6x haltech made 84.6fwkw, stock extractors and stock intake. My blacktop i have now made 102.6rwkw with T3 trumpets and jasma extractors and adaptronic ecu. so i would expect alot more from a blacktop than 86rwkw

[4A-G3]

yes im running trumpets, TRD copy extractors, toda exhaust cam gear and toda valve springs.

john said its only tuned to 90% of its full potential because of a small exhaust leak at the cat

[charged]

get the exhuast fixed and final tune done and see how it goes if your still not happy get one of these...capacity is king

http://www.speedracersportscars.com.au/stroker.htm

[xero]

is one of those stroker kits actually any good john?
would be keen to hear some first hand experiance with one...

[jet81j]

that looks awesome that 7age. any power figures for those race engine? the low down torque would be real good

[charged]

is one of those stroker kits actually any good john?
would be keen to hear some first hand experiance with one...

I dont run one yet :) but a few guys I know do and are very happy with the performance of them, Dave Loftus (awesome steerer) used to run a 1810cc 7age in his starlet and that made 210hp atw,
his engine was a B/T head, 7age block, stroker crank, honda pistons/rod built by Abe in Sydney . Plenty of other guys run a Yager 1880cc 7age. Ive heard there is a harmonics problem if you run them over 1910 with big revs over 9000rpm

a little vid of daves starlet, it still holds most records for IP U2L in NSW and now its turbo most of the O2L records aswell :)

a great dice with bob jowetts escort

IeJr5ZGU3y8

and his car now with turbs power :)
8jcBwcWdlKg




that looks awesome that 7age. any power figures for those race engine? the low down torque would be real good

The power is good 240hp at the crank but the torque is nice and linear

[Celica RA45]

and dave also runs my 50mm quad throttle set up as well

[Delazy]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/4/7/43187.jpg

stock blacktop with adaptronic

build thread....note stock blacktop 20v replaced a tired 16v 7age
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/showthread.php/17696-Ke70-7age/page1

[4A-G3]

i think im just going to put a 3s-ge beams altezza conversion with the w58 5spd gearbox with an adaptronic ecu im promised 205hp at the wheels which is about 150kws so i might just do that set up with a F series tarago mini spool in it.

[joeschmo_57]

Charged - That first video is a little ripper! I think i am going to get into Time attack now haha

[fantapants]

i think im just going to put a 3s-ge beams altezza conversion with the w58 5spd gearbox with an adaptronic ecu im promised 205hp at the wheels which is about 150kws so i might just do that set up with a F series tarago mini spool in it.

ummmm how bout NO

sorry to dissapoint, but unless the dyno you are using is lying to you, u will NOT see 150rwkw

without exception, the beams rigs getting round these days are rolling 130 - 140 rwkw with very similar setups, adaps, quads etc. Brads, jays, mine, brendans, clay... all rolling about 135rwkw and all running very simialr.

to get much more needs a fair bit, follow andys setup and build for an idea of what is needed to step up from the 130 mark. or have a chat with glen to get an idea what it takes to build a 200rwkw beams.

[ke_70]

mine does not run similar :P

but yeah you will see low 130s still more than enough.

[4A-G3]

the conversion im talking about is brendans one in his old ae86, the bloke that owns it now told me that it makes 205hp at the wheels after a good tune because the guy that tuned it just did it from a laptop.

still plan on working the beams after its in :) any ideas on what upgrades i can do to the beams ?


by the way the guy also told me that the beams can also out run skylines ect that make 300hp at the wheels so maybe he was lying about the 205hp at the wheels

[Delazy]

the conversion im talking about is brendans one in his old ae86, the bloke that owns it now told me that it makes 205hp at the wheels after a good tunes

id certainly question that..

if you want advice on mods..go straight to glenn..he'll tell you wat you need and more than likely be able to provide all the parts..

as mentioned previously..his motor made 200rwkw n/a

[4A-G3]

whats glenn's ae86dc user name ?

[Delazy]

whats glenn's ae86dc user name ?

Celica RA45 (http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/member.php/173-Celica-RA45)

[fantapants]

clay, urs ran up 138 rwkw when jay had it didnt it?

brenadans motor has this magik 205 hp story about it.

it was dyno'd at some autosalon like event on the gold coast, and ran up 205hp....

EVERY other time it was run on dyno's it trotted in mid 130....although if im wrong please ant, correct me :)

[ke_70]

i dont jays old motor. that went into touge's car.
unsure if mines a very high powered motor. its high kms and has sat around for a while. jays was a very low km motor i think. but his was only road tuned by them selves so that figure could be a "it made 20kws more than when we dynoed it last time" kinda thing.

and yeah i think jays made around that. he also had hks headers.

dude these motors are very expencive to mod. expect to pay 10-15k for a reliable 50-60kws

and the convertion is not as easy as you think. just look in the forsale thread. :S

my advice, just buy a 250kw sr20. beams/4ages aren't for power hungry people

[fantapants]

My bad :)

[Anthony]

sounds right to me Pat :)

made 131-133kW on 3 different dyno's over 2 years and 3 owners (all of which I am pretty sure treated it appropriately :) )

The 205hp figure from dysons dyno we'll throw out as junk data.

[xero]

I dont run one yet :) but a few guys I know do and are very happy with the performance of them, Dave Loftus (awesome steerer) used to run a 1810cc 7age in his starlet and that made 210hp atw,
his engine was a B/T head, 7age block, stroker crank, honda pistons/rod built by Abe in Sydney . Plenty of other guys run a Yager 1880cc 7age. Ive heard there is a harmonics problem if you run them over 1910 with big revs over 9000rpm



wow that sounds like a pretty decent motor and 210hp at the back tyres sounds quite reasonable and realiable.
one thing i have noticed at places like wakefield (fishhook) and eastern creek (turn 1) you do need a large rev range ( IE 8500rpm+) if your N/A as in both my AE86 and micra i have to shift mid way through the fish hook, and i know if i had maybe another 1500 rpm in the AE86 it would make the shift point just passed the exit. so i thenk as you say keeping it no more than 1850cc is the go.

PS i hate you post that, first vid is an epic battle, and now i want a 7a even more... but for now ill put it into the "one day" basket.

[charged]

wow that sounds like a pretty decent motor and 210hp at the back tyres sounds quite reasonable and realiable.
one thing i have noticed at places like wakefield (fishhook) and eastern creek (turn 1) you do need a large rev range ( IE 8500rpm+) if your N/A as in both my AE86 and micra i have to shift mid way through the fish hook, and i know if i had maybe another 1500 rpm in the AE86 it would make the shift point just passed the exit. so i thenk as you say keeping it no more than 1850cc is the go.

PS i hate you post that, first vid is an epic battle, and now i want a 7a even more... but for now ill put it into the "one day" basket.

Thats front wheel drive the starlet, he is running at PI this weekend at Island Magic, its fuckin nuts now with the turbo on it, I expect it to lower the lap record for Improved Production at PI.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4025/4433125771_3e4f22b2d7_z.jpg

[xero]

right! now i know that car! no idea it had a 7a in it before, have seen it racing before with the turbo motor and jesus titty fucking christ its fast. like not just in a straigt line fast, it fucking fast everywhere!

[Rice86]

interesting read...but how come no one thought about just making the car lighter? =.=' it will improve in all areas!

acceleration
handling
stopping

Carbon fiber this and that...you got hell of a good wallet, get high comp pistons i rekon while your at it and just put the thing on a diet, get some lightweight rims and good final gear ratio to get to the power band faster..

balance over power, isnt that what AE86 is all about? or did i miss something

[ke_70]

you cant get a very light car legally

[4A-G3]

cars basically stripped out, no rear seats, no sound tar, most plastic removed. got a weight sheet for it it weighs almost 830kgs as is

[xero]

interesting read...but how come no one thought about just making the car lighter? =.=' it will improve in all areas!

acceleration
handling
stopping

Carbon fiber this and that...you got hell of a good wallet, get high comp pistons i rekon while your at it and just put the thing on a diet, get some lightweight rims and good final gear ratio to get to the power band faster..

balance over power, isnt that what AE86 is all about? or did i miss something

and pretty much a no no for most classes of motorsport, bar maybe sports sedans, but then you may as well put a turbo'd 400ci chev engine the car and be done with it...

[Sam-Q]

and moved to the tech section where it belongs

[MAGIC MAN]

a standard untouched blacktop internally, but with good exhaust and correct trumpets, and aftermarket ecu, is capable of turning 112rwkw, that was with a 4.3 diff ratio and 15" wheels and 50 profile tyres. thats what sas told me to expect and many of the clubmans they had tuned were around this figure. i did manage to squeeze over 120 out of my old bt.

[Sam-Q]

well on some dyno's maybe, doesn't mean much though

However if you have any dyno graphs handy that would be a different story

[jet81j]

yeah was thinking the same thing, would love to see a stock bt with 120rwkw.

Adam at JEM said my bt 20v was the first he had make over 100rwkw with only trumpets and being stock engine wise, it made 102rwkw

[fantapants]

ive been thinking about this one latley, and for the most part the "drift" build we see that we base our experiances on run very similar inlet and outlet.

70mm trumpets and "trd" copy exhaust manifold.

If you notice, mm mentioned "correct" trumpets and good exhaust. open trumpets may or may not be the optimal, but id bet a decent paycheck on the trd copy manifolds NOT being optimal. Not that they arent useful, they suit a purpose and are used accordingly. BUT the clubman type guys are usually willing and able to spend more coin on their toys than we are. This means optimising things like inlet and exhaust, not just buying what fits and is available. I have NO problem believeing a good tune on a standard blacktop is worth 102rwkw. Specialy from adam. But i also have no problem accepting that if someone puts buttload of effort into optimising inlet and exhaust, that a genuine increase of 8 to 10 rwkw.... only 10%....

engines are pumps, its ALL in and out. Improve these things abnd performance increases. Constantly using the same add ons to fit the engines, will resuklt in similar results.

and how much do i "love" hey???

[n2866]

the correct length can be found when using a dyno but from what ive read people say 100mm-120mm is perfect..

people only run 70mm stacks because thats all that fits without going boosterless master.

[Gunner]

Just have to be creative then

[fantapants]

the correct length can be found when using a dyno but from what ive read people say 100mm-120mm is perfect..

people only run 70mm stacks because thats all that fits without going boosterless master.

but thats what i mean... these installs are regularly compromised for various reasons, but then people take the tuned dyno readings as gospel. They are readings of a compromised setup.

Ergo... if someone doesnt compromise, there are gains to be had. :)

[joeschmo_57]

which also begs the question, would a smallport 16v with the right sized quds, decent headers and an ECU get *close* to the same kw/response of a 20v?

considering the KM's of both engines etc.

[Delazy]

Ergo... if someone doesnt compromise, there are gains to be had. :)

let hope so, because id love to hit the 120+ mark, although not too confident lol

[xero]

which also begs the question, would a smallport 16v with the right sized quds, decent headers and an ECU get *close* to the same kw/response of a 20v?

considering the KM's of both engines etc.

ill let you know very soon...

[Grant #2]

What kind of cams would said 16V have?

Either way though, VVT on the 20V makes for a pretty strong mid-range that would be hard to match with a 16V, even if the 16V is making just as much peak power.

When you start talking cams that are really aggressive, 280 and higher, VVT shouldn't be used on a 20V so it's up in the air at that point.

[Sam-Q]

When you start talking cams that are really aggressive, 280 and higher, VVT shouldn't be used on a 20V so it's up in the air at that point.

thats what I used to think but it's like that might not be the case with the right grind

[joeschmo_57]

well say, the same sized cams.. duration lift etc. at a point where VVT is obsolete

[dtour]

lol enough of the comparisons... i need some info on the 20v silvertop injectors..

just so you know i am planning on converting mine to run on E85 with plans to turbo it later.

i need to know what injectors fit into the 20v fuel rail? i have heard that 1J injectors may fit?

[Sam-Q]

1J and 2J, by memory the 1J are 440cc and I have some for sale if your interested

[dtour]

1J and 2J, by memory the 1J are 440cc and I have some for sale if your interested

You have a PM good sir

[Delazy]

planning to increase compression?? all the research i did regarding E85 on a 4age came up with very little reason to actually do it...unless u were running 12.5:1-13.0:1 compression very little power to be gained...

also make sure u run suitable fuel lines and clean the tank quite well prior to changing over...

as said, looked into this quite in depth...but decided against it...

[70XIN]

1J and 2J, by memory the 1J are 440cc and I have some for sale if your interested

1J are 380cc
2J are 440cc
USDM 2J are 550cc (low impedence)

[xero]

planning to increase compression?? all the research i did regarding E85 on a 4age came up with very little reason to actually do it...unless u were running 12.5:1-13.0:1 compression very little power to be gained...

also make sure u run suitable fuel lines and clean the tank quite well prior to changing over...

as said, looked into this quite in depth...but decided against it...


this was talked about on another forum recently but for different reasons, i will look into E85 in the future (as you well know del ive got the compression) but for possibly an entirely different reason, that is to pass emissions. should i be EPA'd i will look long and hard at upgrading to E85 for the power and environmental gains.
but i do agree it would be a handful of horsepower gain, but its just where the gain would be that also interest me...

[Delazy]

the only stuff worth running

http://www.racefuels.com.au/fuelsDetail.asp?ID=16

[dtour]

planning to increase compression?? all the research i did regarding E85 on a 4age came up with very little reason to actually do it...unless u were running 12.5:1-13.0:1 compression very little power to be gained...

also make sure u run suitable fuel lines and clean the tank quite well prior to changing over...

as said, looked into this quite in depth...but decided against it...

to be honest, the reason i am going to convert it now, is in preparation for the turbo conversion. any power gains are a bonus.
all my fuel lines have been replace with speedflow lines and fittings, so i think i should be good there.

So what was it that put you off E85 totally?



this was talked about on another forum recently but for different reasons, i will look into E85 in the future (as you well know del ive got the compression) but for possibly an entirely different reason, that is to pass emissions. should i be EPA'd i will look long and hard at upgrading to E85 for the power and environmental gains.
but i do agree it would be a handful of horsepower gain, but its just where the gain would be that also interest me...

Can i get a link to that forum/ thread?
is there really very little gain to be had from e85?





1J are 380cc
2J are 440cc
USDM 2J are 550cc (low impedence)

Cheers, so it looks like i will need 2j ones then.

[xero]

Can i get a link to that forum/ thread?
is there really very little gain to be had from e85?

.

if you going turbo then yeah there is a heap of gains to be made as you can run more boost, also a cooler intake charge as the alcohol content burns at a cooler rate that petrol, can run way more advanced igniton... so 25+rwkw gains will be had.
del and i were more refering to in a N/A application, where you really need massive compression (minimum 12.5:1) to make the best of it and you migh get 10-15rwkw out of it.

with your injector sizing you might need to get a bit bigger, as a general rule of thumb E85 uses 35% more fuel than petrol, but it also has a much higher "octane" rating then petrol.

the thread i mentioned:
http://www.performanceforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67263838

[Slimer86]

Actually have 1st hand experience with a modification worthy of this thread, apart from the 3 pages of non-20v related material.

As per Frak's recommendation on many other forums (and the old forum), I purchased and installed the I-Mec trumpets inside the factory airbox (silvertop modified airbox) to a blacktop 20v.

The drivability is totally different after the installation, and feels like it has gained alot more torque right across the rev range, which confirms what Frak found on the street and dyno.

[Grant #2]

I read about that too, on here...and I welded on very short throttles onto my blacktop airbox base (maybe 2.2cm long) and didn't notice much of a difference versus the stacks open to the air. Was a bit disappointed :S

[fantapants]

its more to do with the radius and air entry path than length ....

length is to do with reversion, i think the real improvement on these was the actual mouth of the throttle and the bounce from the back wall of the airbox...

[Grant #2]

What do you mean by air entry path? The bellmouth on my stacks aren't nearly as ....wide...as the imec ones. Are you saying it's mostly the shape of the bell mouth that increases the torque?

[xero]

yes, pretty much. for example a curved bellmouth has allows the air to pick up speed and compress much easier and "cleaner" than a sharp angled funnel shape.
the shape of the bellmouth, the radius and the entry path to the throttles plays a much larger part than the actual length of them. the fact you have them in a airbox arrangement also helps a lot more than having them completely open.

[fantapants]

yes, pretty much. for example a curved bellmouth has allows the air to pick up speed and compress much easier and "cleaner" than a sharp angled funnel shape.
the shape of the bellmouth, the radius and the entry path to the throttles plays a much larger part than the actual length of them. the fact you have them in a airbox arrangement also helps a lot more than having them completely open.

he always says it better n me :)

i think the point about being in the airbox and the airbox acting as a "spring" for the reverbs is also important.

[Grant #2]

The shape of the bell mouth being a large factor is new to me, I didn't know it was that important. I also believe the airbox should be helping but.....

http://forums.club4ag.com/zerothread?id=88152

Guy that went in and compared with airbox vs without.

[fantapants]

i cant see any change really? am i reading it wrong? like 4 hp?

i think the important thing to remember, well something that i have found to work well, is to make sure parts work together.

In this case we have a specific design of trumpet that works very well with the stock airbox. and creates good improvements throughout. frak mentioned that when tried without the box, it lost throughout the rev range iirc. its about the parts working harmoniously, producing a desired effect.

In the above case, those parts were not influencing each other, or the box was adversely effectiong the trumpets.

[Delazy]

This is one of the things im setting myself up to be prepared for...

Ive got a nobybooth airbox with sptech 30mm trumpets...but for the sake of testing plan to test both imec trumpets and 50mm sptech inside the airbox...frm memory imec are about 30mm but vary in the size of the funnel lip, meaning they wont need machining to fit as the sptech did...also plan trialing the tecarts open intersecting stacks as ken runs/ran on his 16v...

The joys of dyno owning/tuning close friends lol...

But due to me being lazy, certainly wont be at this stage for sometime...so dnt wait for my findings lol

[Gunner]

you're such a tease lazy.

[xero]

i have read and spoken to a few IPRA and racers who have monitored their intakes/plenum charges on a long straight (eastern creek actually) and using a decent airbox arrangement and tube leading to said box.
they have read up 12-13psi being RAMMED into their quads airbox/plenum at speeds above 160km/h!

so on the straight at eastern creek where it is eaisly possible to clock 200km/h imagine the effect a car with a air box would have vs car without..

[4A-G3]

ok guys im finally back to this thread with everything done and said. have fixed the exhaust leak, put in cam shafts, valve spings, cam gears, rebuilt bottom end, bigger exhaust and all that good stuff, moved the rpm limit from what sprinter man set it up at 7600 to 8900 and FCK me dead, the car is FCKIN moving, made 113rwkws on the dyno at leading edge


let me know what you guys think

[timbo]

http://images1.memegenerator.net/ImageMacro/6503508/Impressive-Most-impressive.jpg?imageSize=Medium&generatorName=darth

[Grant #2]

That is very impressive!

What compression ratio did you settle on? And can I ask what kind of header and what size exhaust are you using?

I'm trying to figure out if my 2.25" mandrel exhaust is too small.

[Sam-Q]

4A-G3: Unfortunetly without a basis of comparasin it means little, I am betting if you go to another dyno and you can get well under 100kw.

Grant #2: 2.25 is heaps for just about everyone on here

[Grant #2]

Sam, kind of random, but on your website it says that VVT retards the cam. My understanding is that it advances it. You can see this in the quoted VVT timing figures.

[Sam-Q]

can you explain the quoted figures and how you think it suggests that, because if there is something wrong on my site I want to know

[4A-G3]

rebuilt bottom end with standard parts so no adjustment in compression accept getting it back to factory settings, running 2.25" exhaust straight through with high flow cat and 3" muffler, Sam it was on a dynomax if it was on a mainline dyno it would be in mid to high 90's. very noticeable power improvement from when i first got it back from john at 86rwkw

[Grant #2]

Well, I don't have the figures in front of me but Billzilla's website explains it as advance (with timing figures on a chart, with vvt on and off) and Brad at Kelford told me about potential issues with VVT advancing with higher lift and duration. If it was retarded when on, we wouldn't have to turn it of at higher rpm. VVT turns off at high rpm to let the intake vallve close later. I thought I read that from a post of yours actually...

[fantapants]

rebuilt bottom end with standard parts so no adjustment in compression accept getting it back to factory settings, running 2.25" exhaust straight through with high flow cat and 3" muffler, Sam it was on a dynomax if it was on a mainline dyno it would be in mid to high 90's. very noticeable power improvement from when i first got it back from john at 86rwkw

so its a hub dyno.....???

it would be wonderful if people could get in the same sort of habit photographers have... listing the camera and lens and all that information with their pics.

car guys could list dyno type et all when listing numbers.

cos claiming an improvement from 86 to 113 without explaining the difference in dyno types is useless to everyone who reads it. not digging at you, more just a comment on the "gospel of dyno's"

[Sam-Q]

I will need to check it out, I would of thought it would retard the timing as the valve opening later would mean less overlap and a smaller lobe angle hance more mid range rpm, I am seriously confused

[Grant #2]

Although not concrete evidence, I'm pretty sure I remember the cam twisting counter clock wise when I was trying to remove the pulley with a pulley puller.

[Grant #2]

Sam this computer has trouble with PM's but basically the conversation with kelford was that I was afraid to enable VVT with the 194-B's.....b/c vvt would advance the cam with more lift and duration. Brad's reply was without hesitation, and he said he's never heard of someone having valve interference with vvt on the b rind, but on the c's he gave me the impression that it is best to add air pressure to the cam gear to make it advance, then check valve clearance with putty.

Basically we both had a conversation with idea that VVT advances and doesn't retard. Maybe you could explain why you feel it retards?

[Frak]

When the VVT switches ON, the inlet camshaft is ADVANCED that is it opens earlier(further from TDC) and closes earlier(closer to BDC) this increases overlap, when the VVT is switched OFF the camshaft is RETARDED, that is, it opens later(TDC) but also closes later(further from BDC) this reduces valve overlap.

My thoughts on VVT(after much experimentation on the dyno);

At low rpm the VVT is switched off(retarded) this reduces overlap, stops intake being sucked out exhaust by exhaust extraction, also the speed of the intake charge is low BUT we have plenty of time to fill the cylinder due to rpm being low, emissions are reduced, idle quality is enhanced,

The VVT is switched on(advanced) for a couple of reasons, in light load it can be switched on to increase internal exhaust gas recirculation, reduce oxides of nitrogen, from a power point of view though, the VVT is switched on to increase the overlap and allow the exhaust pulse to scavenge the chamber and increase the speed of the intake charge, at lower rpm and higher loads, the intake charge is still travelling slowly, by increasing valve overlap we can use the exhaust pulse to help suck the intake charge in, so the exhaust pulse does 2 things, scavenge the chamber AND if the inlet valve is open help to suck intake charge in thus increasing the VE.

At higher rpm, the intake charge is travelling at HIGH speed, there is no need to have increased overlap(and use the exhaust pulse to get the intake up to speed) so the intake VVT is switched back off, thus retarding the camshaft and increasing the close time of the inlet valve, the reduced overlap stops mixture being sucked out the exhaust and the late closing of the intake valve helps to capture more fresh inlet charge, the late closing does not cause fresh intake charge to be pushed back into the inlet track due to the speed and inertia of the intake charge. From a torque/power point of view the VVT is all about optimising inlet charge speed. If it's going slow it won't go in! lets use the dynalmics of the engine to keep it moving fast and keep VE up.

When dealing with twin camshaft engines with VVT alot that has been said about overlap, open/closing valve points IS different to single camshafts with fixed overlap, the way I see it overlap increases mid range torque whilst late closing of the inlet valve increases upper end torque/power, if you want more upper end you MUST have later inlet valve closing. Some of the problems with fixed camshaft timing(non VVT) is if for example you are chasing upper end power so you pick some big sticks with late inlet valve closing at lower rpm the inlet charge is moving slow and the upwards movement of the piston on the inlet stroke can cause the charge to be pushed back into the inlet tracks thus reducing VE this can be a major problem on carb engines as it can stop fuel being pulled from the fuel circuits. When you actually look at what VVT is doing on a dyno, it's a case of having your cake and eating it too. Very shortly we will be running up a V6 engine with quad cam phasers with infinte adjustment(within cam phaser constraints) and will be interesting to see effects not only on power but also emissions, we recently got a new 5 gas analyser and now we can measure oxides of nitrogen it's amazing just how easy it is to send this particular emission through the roof. I was programming an Autronic SM4 on an LS1 and it was interesting to see the effect of a/f on emissions.

[Grant #2]

Nice to see you post! Thanks again for your advice on the cams before...my main regret is not just buying valve springs...still using the OEM springs....=(

What you said about the importance of intake valve closing agrees perfectly with what I read on some older books that include cam design theory. I now wish I had a 194-C intake cam to let the engine breathe up top. These engines seem to be able to make an ae86 move very rapidly indeed. The thing is, they deleted VVT and have a pretty lumpy idle. My engine with VVT idles like stock and has almost as much low down torque as before.

e-impulses' 200PS at the flywheel street demo car seems very fast....

http://www.youtube.com/user/ae86impulse#p/u/14/sgIH8irnSzs

All with a 288 in/272 ex and good exhaust optimization.

[Frak]

Thanks Grant,
Do not underestimate the effect the negative exhaust pulse has on the intake system during overlap, recently whilst dynoing an engine fitted with Kelford 194-B's we had a problem that at a particular rpm and 100Kpa(WOT) the a/f ratio was very lean, no problem just add more fuel(Haltec something ecu) the mixture was still lean, add more fuel, infact added a heap more at that load point and the a/f was still lean, when bringing up the 3D map, it looked odd as there was this steep point of extra fuel.

So something must be causing this, hmmmmm, lets turn the VVT ON ABOVE this rpm point and see what happens, reduced the fuel amount back down and give it a rip with VVT OFF at this load point, presto, problem gone(gotta love programmable ecu's) the exhaust negative pulse was so intense at this point that with the increased overlap any fresh intake charge was being sucked straight out the exhaust, turning VVT OFF reduced the overlap so when this intense negative pulse reached the chamber, the intake valve was closed and could not suck the inlet charge out the cylinder. By increasing the VVT ON point it didn't affect torque/power so we left the ON point at this slightly higher rpm point.

Yeah Grant after using B's I'd go with C's.

[Slimer86]

On another note, this 20v on engine dyno sounds horn!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69OFUXpVs0U&feature=player_profilepage

[Grant #2]

LOL I can't say you didn't warn me. On the other hand, VVT worked with no fuss, idle is like normal (had to reduce some fueling as the map was higher at idle) and there was a very noticeable difference. If the C worked drop in with VVT I would buy it immediately.

[pen15]

with my 1600cc bt20v im aiming for 10,000 rpm with 190-200 hp atw imo remove the vvt and just go for gold massive shafts light as fuck bottomend and comp with a heap of development like moving the cas down to the crank pully smash the ports big pipes shit like that

but as for the moment im just gathering up the necessary parts all the wright jap parts hurt the back pocket i tell ya

as for power figures my boss has developed stock bt20v with just a set of valve springs in em with 138 rwhp (102.9 rwkw) on a chassis dyno on rollers that's good for a stock motor

[Frak]

Grant, your right the B's do idle nice and have good bottom/mid, it's a dilema, what do you go for, still driveable down low or just at high rpm!

[FoldKing86]

Digging up an oldy here but i have a question.

s/top daily driver, probably wont see drift but will see hills and track work.

Kinda deciding between Toda cams (i have my reasons) 288/9.2mm no vvt or 272/9.2mm with vvt.

Pro and cons of each if known.

Looking for maximum useable torque, also not looking to throttle the hell out of it to get somewhere aka 8500rpm+ constantly

Current set up, 11.6-1 wisecos piston otherwise stock, approx compression 220psi each cyl.

hks super dragger 16v extractors to 2.25" crapping exhaust, with 50mm open trumpets, although these will change soon.

Makes 100rwkw at he same place xero's 16v makes 118.2rwkw.

Personally the 272's make sense given my direction with some of Pen15 headwork and vvt.

So looking for maximum useable torque. Couldnt give a rats ass what the final peak hp or torque is, and no FI isnt an option.

[luke111]

272 would give you more useable torque lower down, and vvt will certainly keep things interesting top-end

Im running 284 9.5mm with no vvt in my Ae111 Trueno
With 12:1 comp ratio.

Bottom end torque is average (but bearable) but top-end (5-10k) is unreal

[FoldKing86]

Cheers Luke.

I figured as much, dont have a graph so i can see your torque curve

[luke111]

I'll see what I can dig up

[Sam-Q]

Kinda deciding between Toda cams (i have my reasons) 288/9.2mm no vvt or 272/9.2mm with vvt.


care to share those reasons?

[FoldKing86]

Yep

After researching i found that nearly everyone who uses Kelford or other non Toda cams doesnt seem to have any luck or cams aren't what they thought they were. Dialed in correct i wouldn't know

Now whether its related to other things im not 100% but so far zero complaints that i can find regarding Toda's cams lol other then $$ of course.

Another thing is ramp rate of the cam, some cams being considered to aggressive, having terrible wisdom teeth drama atm so i cant think straight but ill continue my research.

[Sam-Q]

I suggest Clive cams 270A grind, known to work with VVT with no loss of power anywhere in the rev range

[FoldKing86]

Known?

Only info i have on those cams is what you say Sam, do you know the duration/lift and lobe centers?

Think i read somewhere they could be 9.4mm lift?

[Sam-Q]

Duration is 270/270 with 9.1mm lift, the profile is called 272A not 270A. I don't know the lobe center measurement but I can find out. You need to use a silvertop VVT pulley though.

[willeE7]

Duration is 270/270 with 9.1mm lift, the profile is called 272A not 270A. I don't know the lobe center measurement but I can find out. You need to use a silvertop VVT pulley though.

Say I don't have a silvertop VVT pulley...Best compromise between low and top end, what cam would you recommend while retaining VVT, Sam?
Cheers

[FoldKing86]

Would love to see the dyno readout supporting these cams Sam

[willeE7]

Lol, I have a VVT pulley, it's just my blacktop one haha. Sorry.

[FoldKing86]

Well thats different again as to my knowledge the blacktop runs a different pulley and is also 5deg lobe center different to s/top.

[willeE7]

Yeah, just wondering where VVT stops becoming usable...Want to eventually go some larger cams and headwork etc. Still want to retain VVT though...

[willeE7]

I've heard somewhere around 272 as mentioned above but just want to confirm it...

[FoldKing86]

That depends to Will.

Theres a bloke in NZ (pretty sure its NZ) who claims to be using large cams (around 288/10mm) but still using VVT. Claims its the way you dial the cams.

So who knows but as you state generally about 272/9.2 is max i think. Anything after that and you wouldn't get much assistance from VVT.

[willeE7]

Cheers man, won't be buying anything for a fair while haha. Just sizing it all up.
Thanks

[70XIN]

I gained 20+hp over a few thousand RPM window by retaining VVT on 284 degree/9.3mm intake, 278 degree/8.5mm exhaust cams. (Kelford 194C).

Unlike all the people who just "guess" that VVT becomes useless past a certain size of cam, i actually tested it. I tried all different kinds of different lobe centres (as i was able to adjust the intake gear 5 degrees either direction with a TODA offset cam pin, as well as having a BT 20V and ST20V intake cam gear which are 5 degrees different) - i even advanced and retarded the cam gear an entire tooth each way.

Again, to dispel another wonderful rumour - i don't think there's a single 20V cam available on the market that couldn't be run safely with VVT - even the 300+ degree 10mm lift cams (of course you want to carefully check your clearances both on and off VVT, but this is super easy).

I checked all the clearances with my 194C cams at all the different lobe centres, and was kinda bummed when i realised i could've gone so much bigger and run VVT without problems, simply because i was stupid enough to listen to all the bullshit garbage that people keep sharing around the interweb.

[Lurkin]

Happy to swap a set of silvertop cams for blacktop if anyones keen....

[FoldKing86]

I gained 20+hp over a few thousand RPM window by retaining VVT on 284 degree/9.3mm intake, 278 degree/8.5mm exhaust cams. (Kelford 194C).

Unlike all the people who just "guess" that VVT becomes useless past a certain size of cam, i actually tested it. I tried all different kinds of different lobe centres (as i was able to adjust the intake gear 5 degrees either direction with a TODA offset cam pin, as well as having a BT 20V and ST20V intake cam gear which are 5 degrees different) - i even advanced and retarded the cam gear an entire tooth each way.

Again, to dispel another wonderful rumour - i don't think there's a single 20V cam available on the market that couldn't be run safely with VVT - even the 300+ degree 10mm lift cams (of course you want to carefully check your clearances both on and off VVT, but this is super easy).

I checked all the clearances with my 194C cams at all the different lobe centres, and was kinda bummed when i realised i could've gone so much bigger and run VVT without problems, simply because i was stupid enough to listen to all the bullshit garbage that people keep sharing around the interweb.


Well there you go, you learn something new everyday.

Thanks Seamus, did you ever find/fix the reason why your 7age dropped of power so quick. Cams not hot enough?

Moving the cam off its ideal lobe center isn't a good idea thou as that's where the cam is designed to work, correct if im wrong.

[willeE7]

Toxin - Seamus, out of curiosity, do you have any dynosheets that you could PM me a pic of or something? Really interested to see what figures the 7A makes with the blacktop head.
And also, you're using an aftermarket ECU??
Cheers man. That's handy information.

[FoldKing86]

As per another thread, not sure where Seamus finished with it thu, believe he sold that package.



25985

[willeE7]

Interesting.