Blacktop 20v: Displacement Increase.

[Jamehij]

Hi all.

The plan is to build a hard tune n/a 20v. Ridiculous compression ratio etc.

I just want to know what can be done to increase the stroke.

The plan is to bore the block to 82mm with custom forged pistons.

HKS 5age kit? I wont be able to use the pistons any way right? Cause they are made for the 16v head. But if i could get my hands on the crank or similar is that all i need?

Any help would be gratelly apreciated, Flaws, easier routes etc.
Cheers,

86 lover, 4age noob. :DD

[focus_7]

Well theres alot of discussion about 7age's in the 7age thread.

[julzy]

7age or custom made 'stroker' crank
but there not cheap, $2500

[xero]

Hi all.

The plan is to build a hard tune n/a 20v. Ridiculous compression ratio etc.

I just want to know what can be done to increase the stroke.

The plan is to bore the block to 82mm with custom forged pistons.

HKS 5age kit? I wont be able to use the pistons any way right? Cause they are made for the 16v head. But if i could get my hands on the crank or similar is that all i need?

Any help would be gratelly apreciated, Flaws, easier routes etc.
Cheers,

86 lover, 4age noob. :DD

mate im already using WISECO hi comp 82mm pistons in my small port 16v. my capacity is roughly 1630cc. no hardly a massive increase

to get closer to the 1700cc that the '5AGE' is, you will need minimum 83mm pistons (called 4.5AG sold via RS yasu in japan) which will give you a capacity of about 1670-1680cc. this uses either a mazda bp1800 piston or nissan ca18 piston.

more info here
http://www. hachiroku. com. au/blog/?p=1667#more-1667

[Jamehij]

Cheers thanks for the help.

[Jamehij]

What kinda power outputs have been seen by the members thru a 4age or 7age. My project is going to be long term. I am looking to get a very powerful n/a. So i figured displacement was the biggest power gainer long term.

[xero]

4age be it 16v or 20v your looking max about 180-200hp. thats for a reliable engine being driven on a semi regular basis or flogged at the track.

7age would be about 200-240hp max.. but that would require a hell of a lot of work to do that. mostly with the 7age is you get a massive torque increase than a power increase.

[slydar]

not many members here have done a heavily tuned NA engine. no one has a 5ag unless they were lucky enough to buy an import that already had it, sometimes, not even knowingly :)

on HR recently there has been a thread about toda (i think, or tomei?) doing a stroker kit for the 4age soonish but..

i personally think though, its kinda pointless. either stick with close to 1600cc. or go 7age.

the deck height of a 4age is quite short, and so stroking the engine isnt really the best idea maybe, considering the rod ratio is already fairly low at around 1.5 : 1 from memory. not enough room in the crank case for a really long throw either. even 5ags need extra machining for rod clearance.

all that = money.

the most you should pay for a 7a is $700. rods can be had for them, if you desire, for about that again or less. so worse case scenario. $1400. if you had planned a serious engine, then possibly you would have done rods in a 4age anyway.

this = close to 1800cc, still a decent rod ratio (just marginally under a 4ag). a big pump up in compression ect.

refer to the 7ag topics for more info :)

[Vance]

7age blacktop 20v maxes out at 220 but thats with aftermarket cams, pistons, rods, crank, computer + being very well built. torque is what makes the engine worthwhile

a good 7age build for about 180hp-200hp and compression at about 13:1 is toda 272in 288ex 9mm lift cams (lets you retain vvt), aftermarket rods, standard 7a block, crank, standard blacktop pistons, head, trd 0.8 head gasket, aftermarket computer.

will cost a MINIMUM of 6k to build but more like 8k. get a GOOD engine builder

[Sam-Q]

behold

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=1308

Jamehij: dont bother boring out any 4A engine unless its just one size up to fit new pistons. Otherwise your just wasting your money for no real power gain. There is also some real debate over the reliablity of running 83mm pistons. Something that hasnt been asked yet is what do you really want out of this engine? max top end power?

[Jamehij]

Yea sorry. Im not really sure what i want. I had a bz-r, which was great. I have an 86 on the way and im not sure really sure where i want to go in terms of the engine department. The bzr was rated at what 115kw atw? but realisticly it would have been under 100kw yea? A friend of mine has a b18c 98spec teg r. with about 150kw at the front. I wouldnt mind 140-150kw at the treads from the 86 (and make the h badge bow down, he showed the bzr up big time grr). Thats assuming i keep it n/a. Is that possible for a 4age red or blacktop?

[focus_7]

150kw atw would come to almost an almost 200kw engine. I'm pretty sure theres no 1600cc NA 4age that can do that.

[Jamehij]

Yea i have read that 83mm is a bit iffy. leaving a 1mm bore 1.5mm max. and thats not worth the money? a 7a block will increase the displacement easier? the 7a isnt as stong though is it? im sorry if i seem trivial i have done alot of reading its just that every forum and every opinion seems to be telling me something different. I was under the impression that the 4 series was the last iron block toyota made????

[Sam-Q]

whats a bz-r?

with the whole integra thing keep in mind you already have an unfair advantage as you have less weight. I have only a lightly tweaked 20V and from what I have seen so far I can show a stock integra type R the door fairly easly. Do you know what mods your friend has done?

[Jamehij]

iv seen a dyno sheet of a smallport 4age putting out like 135kw at the rear. It was estimated 170kw at the fly. I was pretty worked. Was just wondering if that was the upper limit. Wisco forgies and a high cr around 13:1 i think.

[Jamehij]

whats a bz-r?

with the whole integra thing keep in mind you already have an unfair advantage as you have less weight. I have only a lightly tweaked 20V and from what I have seen so far I can show a stock integra type R the door fairly easly. Do you know what mods your friend has done?

A 1997 Toyota levin BZR.

Comes with a blacktop20. 6spd. blah blah.
Mine was fairly standard. shortshift for fun :P. trd leads. 6A msd ignition coil think it was for a honda but it worked. I didnt install it. exh.

His teg is pretty worked. aem fuel rail. bigger injectors. k&n intake. Full exh. headers. msd leads and coil. ngk irdium plugs. cams forget the brand and the angle sorry.

I could keep up low down the lower end torque was enough. But vvt gets pooed on by 9000rpm vtec.
I am looking to buy an 86. But want to make it a bit of a powerhouse. At the moment after a bit more study a n/a blacktop 7age sounds like my cup of tea.

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Unless you're restricted by class regs (sounds like your not) or hell bent on staying 4A, look at something else. For the power you're talking a 3SGE would be far more reliable and probably cheaper. Sure it'd cost a bit more to shoe-horn in, but you wouldn't need to spend as much on engine bits to get that power (BEAMS 3S = 210?? crank hp stock, there's one racecar getting around with 180??rwkw from an NA 3S too).

Still not enough NA power? Look at 3VZ, 1MZ or 2GR or stuff from other makers.

Hen

[Sam-Q]

first up dont look at any dyno number to have that much meaning, there is too much varience between them to used for caparative reasons.

Secondly I have to agree with Hen, he has a good point if your willing to go into the deep which it sounds like you are. One question though do you want to remain with no forced induction?

[lo_rolla]

If you really want max NA power, you'd be stupid to not get a 3SGE.

Stupid like me.

With a 4A, your looking at over 6000 bucks in parts for a 200hp+ engine. $7500 inc. aftermarket ecu...... etc etc.

Then you gotta get it machined and assembled.

I'm in the middle of it right now.

[Rian]

the money gets up there quik..

it depends on taste tho...

there is nothing like having something worked rather then standard wether it is more powerfulll or not..

the thrill of the build.

[Delazy]

give myself and riojin about 12 months, maybe less in his case and we'll be able to tell u first hand wat ur looking to spend and results u can expect in return...

basic build specs here....
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=229

[lo_rolla]

The thrill, the wait, the highs, the lows....
Yep, livin' the dream.

[lo_rolla]

give myself and riojin about 12 months, maybe less in his case and we'll be able to tell u first hand wat ur looking to spend and results u can expect in return...

Is that 7A or modded black top?

My 16V should be pumping out 200hp+ in less then 3 or 4 months.

[Delazy]

Is that 7A or modded black top?

My 16V should be pumping out 200hp+ in less then 3 or 4 months.



ENGINE
20v BT head + throttles (purchased)
Late 7afe block + crank (purchased)
Belfab 7afe Conrods
Stock/Aftermarket? Blacktop 20v pistons
288/10mm 194-D Customized Kelford Cam
KVS51B Kelford Valve Springs
2 x Toda Exhaust Cam Gears


blah blah blah blah *damn post was too short apparently*

stress that these are plans on paper...may go a smaller cam, bit concerned it may be abit top end heavy for a 7A...

[dr1ft-pig]

there's one racecar getting around with 180??rwkw (from an NA 3S too)


got a link to said car???

i plan to do basically the 7age build on a bigger scale
5sfe bottom end (late) forged/balanced high CR etc

and working the beams head with slightly more duration and a shitload of lift (still wanna keep vvti)

and i wanna know if 200rwkw is acheivable ( mine made 133kwatw on 1 dyno and 150ish (205hpatw) on another dyno nd thats dead stock with a ecu and exhaust)

could be fun i was ecpecting something like 180 maybe even with the larger bottom end but there could be room for more, id love to have a look at said race cars specs

[Sam-Q]

so the 5S head can be adapted onto even the later model beams engine? wow if you pull that off it would be quite a vollatile combination

[slydar]

brendan. the car is onwed by glennRA40 in think is his screen name on toymods. he is also the guy who had the quad throttle adaptors for beams he was selling on here.

personally i think youre mad if you throw away such a hot bottom end, just for 200cc (when the motor is already 2L)

[Hen may possibly be a nut]

Link (http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=9968&highlight=beams) to guy's thread about that crazy 3S. Not sure what it's making now, but it's pretty worked over.

Hen

[carbonae86]

I think that also needs to be added Hen is maybe the cost of such a engine ? I was talking with him before xmas and was told that its 20-25g in parts without all the labour. From memory he building a engine for that black sportsedan alfa i think atm , will be good to see how it does against all the cosworth/nissan/honda powered 2liter cars that people have built last year.

[xero]

blah blah blah blah *damn post was too short apparently*

stress that these are plans on paper...may go a smaller cam, bit concerned it may be abit top end heavy for a 7A...

288 with that lift will suit the 7A pretty well delazy. especially with the 20v head. 272 will be just that little bit too small and anything bigger than 295 will make it really top endy and shit down low.

i remember speaking to ben (takumi trueno from 11ty years ago) and he had 288's on his built black top. it was a bit doughy below 4000rpm, but then kick like a barstid after all the way 9000rpm. according to him if you blipped the throttles, it would spin to 4000rpm real quick anyway..

so with the extra 200cc's i reckon it will be spot on with the 288's

[Jamehij]

Thanks guys. Im not really a fan of the 3s engines. Not that iv ever driven on in a less than one tonne 86 :p but i drove a friend rs200 tezz and the engine definetly lack pulling the tezzers fat ass up to speed.

I do want to build a worked engine... make it mine. Thanks for all the input. Desicion time. Probably 7age. I found a 7afe from a st211 Carina for 400 NZD less alt starter motor nd dizzy. win???

[Jamehij]

Delazy. Let me know how your build goes very interested. Cheers.

[Delazy]

Delazy. Let me know how your build goes very interested. Cheers.

wont be anytime soon mate lol...cant imagine the engine will be anywhere near build in the next 8 months or so...

[dr1ft-pig]

brendan. the car is onwed by glennRA40 in think is his screen name on toymods. he is also the guy who had the quad throttle adaptors for beams he was selling on here.

personally i think youre mad if you throw away such a hot bottom end, just for 200cc (when the motor is already 2L)

sweet, but my toymods priveledges wont let me view it :(

yeah, well i wont be throwing it away i will be keeping it, but a really want the bigger bottom end for more torque etc so it has a lil more punch before the vvti kicks on

i wanted to do the 7age 20v and then the beams came up, which im glad i did but id still like to build a high powered n/a engine so im thinkin this is the go, and i got no class regs to abide to so why not?? lol

[Jamehij]

wont be anytime soon mate lol...cant imagine the engine will be anywhere near build in the next 8 months or so...

Yea I wasnt expecting it to be. I think i could live with an underpowered 4age for that long. Till i get bored :p. I dont have the time to build anything just yet. Back to uni on monday.