car body strength

[chapl]

i know of alot of people that stitch weld there hachis for more body/chasis strength.

but i have also seen some cars that have been pop rivited instead of being welded.

can anyone explain to me which is better or which would be stronger??
and why they would weld rather than rivet and/or rivet rather than weld???

or is it a waste of time doing either???

cheers
chapl

[Dorio86]

This has been covered before.

[chapl]

care to share?

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

Personal opinion... Welding is strong in shear and tension loads... where as pop rivits is only strong in shear loads... but pop riviting has less distortion due to no heating... Pop riviting can also be more easily done at home... But there are many areas in a car that cannot be rivited and only welding will work. Although in certain areas... it really doesnt matter at all as those areas are not exposed to tension loads.

Welding requires the welded surface to be sealed and painted over to prevent rusting and all round a more time consuming job. If u have the time/money, go the cross stitch/seam/spot weld job... A spot welder is hard to come by... most people just use a mig welder and sand back the excess... pretty much the same result except in certain areas... using a proper spot welder will save u weight.

I dont know how heavy a roll of mig wire is... but i know its pretty fuckin heavy.... and i used half a roll on my car... bout 1000 welds...

Is it worth it...? hmm... dont know if my car is faster due to the welds but the increased stiffness definately makes the car more responsive to drive. If i was to build another sprinter from ground up... i would definately do it again..! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif

[Joel-AE86]

Do a search on the old toymods forum www.toymods.org/forums

I have seen it discussed in full length about 4 times!

But yeh in a nutshell -

poprivet = removal of metal = bad = shit
welding = adding metal + fusing seams = no flex = good

A good seam welded hachi with no cage can be found to be stiffer than a non seam welded hachi with a full cage.

[Dorio86]

Here's a good one with pics if your a member

http://www.aeu86.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t...er=asc&start=25 (http://www.aeu86.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=849&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=25)

[chapl]

there must be a reason why people rivet there cars but??

anyway. instead of getting into an argument i might aswell jus weld rather than rivet.

cheers

[rthy]

yea go for the weld

[Ozchuck]

Well, being an engineer, I thought I'd bring up a good point...
the pop-rivets are almost as good welding.
welding is a bit better, but having pop-rivets is no disadvantage, not really.
It can be an advantage, because any monkey can put a rivet in, but most of the metal in the chassis is really thin, and if you're not really pro with it, you'll just burn hols in it and f*** it and warp it a little.
Just put on in the middle of all the welds you get from the factory, and that'll be good enough, anymore wont do anything.

[Dorio86]

Originally posted by Ozchuck@Jan 17 2006, 03:39 PM
Well, being an engineer, I thought I'd bring up a good point...
the pop-rivets are almost as good welding.
welding is a bit better, but having pop-rivets is no disadvantage, not really.
It can be an advantage, because any monkey can put a rivet in, but most of the metal in the chassis is really thin, and if you're not really pro with it, you'll just burn hols in it and f*** it and warp it a little.
Just put on in the middle of all the welds you get from the factory, and that'll be good enough, anymore wont do anything.
Im sure bubbles would be proud on what you just said. If only toymods still existed.

Just a quick question, I have kemppi mig 160 and I was wondering what current and wire speed should I be running for spot/plug welding?

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

Pop rivits cannot handle tension loads...........

[Dorio86]

the engineer has spoken, just look at airplanes, they have rivets all other the place.

[Medwin_3sGTE_AE86]

Aerobatic aeroplanes that handle 9g's use waxed cloth as wing skin...are u gonna wrap ur car in cloth to strengthen it?

I actually gone back to read my old engineering text (Fundamentals of machine component design by Juvinall and Marshek)... yes fair enough... rivets can be used to handle tension loads if they're the right specification... but is also goes on to say for them to handle tension loads they should preferrably be hot riveted which is pretty much a industrial processs using specialised machineary...

In Carrol Smith's Engineer to Win... he specifically specified that rivets should not be used in tension on race cars... I guess these two books contradict each other slightly... but end of the day... Carrol Smith is a respected race car engineer all around the world...

Dorio... if u have something decent to say...say it... if u dont know shit... shut the f*** up!!! no body cares about ur opinion... u have proven many times that ur a tool...

I can go back to UQ and finish off a few management and maths subjects and i'll be a qualified engineer as well... but i've got better things to do... and it happens to be flying planes...

P.S. If u dont even know what speed and power to set ur welder u shouldnt be welding.... any welder would know that those things depends on the thickness of metal ur welding.... better yet... turn it on full power i wanna see u winge about burning a hole in ur chassis...!! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/cool.gif

[RobertoX]

isnt it full of rust any way?

[Matt-AE86]

when I was watching one of the ae86club vids the other day the interview some of the N1 drivers, once guys car was completely made up of pot rivots. all seal lines in the car that joined metal to metal, pot rivoted. Wing, Body kit add-ons ? Pot rivoted http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[Dorio86]

Originally posted by truenosedan@Jan 18 2006, 12:50 AM
isnt it full of rust any way?
this thread is called "car body strength, weld or pop rivet?"

Just to let you know.

[Dorio86]

Originally posted by Funkdoc.@Jan 17 2006, 11:03 PM
Aerobatic aeroplanes that handle 9g's use waxed cloth as wing skin...are u gonna wrap ur car in cloth to strengthen it?

I actually gone back to read my old engineering text (Fundamentals of machine component design by Juvinall and Marshek)... yes fair enough... rivets can be used to handle tension loads if they're the right specification... but is also goes on to say for them to handle tension loads they should preferrably be hot riveted which is pretty much a industrial processs using specialised machineary...

In Carrol Smith's Engineer to Win... he specifically specified that rivets should not be used in tension on race cars... I guess these two books contradict each other slightly... but end of the day... Carrol Smith is a respected race car engineer all around the world...

Dorio... if u have something decent to say...say it... if u dont know shit... shut the f*** up!!! no body cares about ur opinion... u have proven many times that ur a tool...

I can go back to UQ and finish off a few management and maths subjects and i'll be a qualified engineer as well... but i've got better things to do... and it happens to be flying planes...

P.S. If u dont even know what speed and power to set ur welder u shouldnt be welding.... any welder would know that those things depends on the thickness of metal ur welding.... better yet... turn it on full power i wanna see u winge about burning a hole in ur chassis...!! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/cool.gif
thx for nothing

[chapl]

ok.
ozchuck- thats exactly what i thought.

dorio86- toymods sucks the big wang! if your not sure on how to weld or adjust settings dont do it! you will regret it!

funkdoc- i see your point. you seem like you know your shit!

truenosedan- my car got no rust!

[Joel-AE86]

Just weld it or i'll cut you!

[RobertoX]

joel, pop rivet the ke70!!!1111

[yoshimitsu9]

how about arch welding? iit hasnt been mentioned, is that because its shit?

[chapl]

im not saying im goin to do either yet. jus want to get other peoples thoughts!

[xolent]

Originally posted by yoshimitsu9@Jan 18 2006, 10:34 AM
how about arch welding? iit hasnt been mentioned, is that because its shit?
I presume you mean arc welding or stick welding.

Arc welding can or will burn holes and warp the metal as the metal's too thin. Fine welding your diff and all that, not the best for the chassis. You can get away with it, you just got to be really good.

[ae86 slide]

ok so its been mentioned not to rivet on tension points, where exactly are the tension points on an 86, cos riveting seems so much easier for me,

[chapl]

ok. ive done a shitload of research! and what i have found out is that
riviting is just as good as welding if you do it right!

but if i was to pop rivit and do it right i would have to buy stainless steel rivits, and put them in with an air rivit gun. prime the holes etc.

welding. all you gotta do is grind back the paint where welding, stitch it up, then paint over.

i think it would be cheaper to do it by welding. so i think that is what im goin to do.

much appreciated for all your comments!

cheers

[ae86 slide]

but from what i have been told hibinos car along with many other jap drifters is just done with your standard cordless drill a pile of normal rivites and a basic rivit gun,
they have been doin the shit for a while im guessing there pretty on to it.

[Dorio86]

Originally posted by chapl@Jan 19 2006, 09:16 AM
ok. ive done a shitload of research! and what i have found out is that
riviting is just as good as welding if you do it right!

but if i was to pop rivit and do it right i would have to buy stainless steel rivits, and put them in with an air rivit gun. prime the holes etc.

welding. all you gotta do is grind back the paint where welding, stitch it up, then paint over.

i think it would be cheaper to do it by welding. so i think that is what im goin to do.

much appreciated for all your comments!

cheers
You forgot to mention that, in case of an accident rivets are easier to remove than mig welds.

[chapl]

ae86 slide- the aluminium rivits are not very strong and can work themselves loose. so i would rather do it the right way.(if i was goin to rivit)

dorio- not really, as stainless rivits are farken strong. you would need a good pulling tool or good drill bits, as for wleds all you need to do is grind them back.

[Dorio86]

Originally posted by chapl@Jan 19 2006, 11:41 AM
ae86 slide- the aluminium rivits are not very strong and can work themselves loose. so i would rather do it the right way.(if i was goin to rivit)

dorio- not really, as stainless rivits are farken strong. you would need a good pulling tool or good drill bits, as for wleds all you need to do is grind them back.
There are two ways, with a chisel or a drill bit, all you have to do is knock the head of the rivet off and it's loose.

With a spot weld you have a: grind it
b: drill it (its harder than what it sound)

[Joel-AE86]

Dont drill anything...weld it!

Steve-AE86 is an awsome welder. He's helped me with mine.

He used to work as a professional mig welder. He's also a qualified Toyota mechanic and knows sooooo much about hachis.

[RobertoX]

can he drift too?

[Blown86]

If your actually serious about stiffening your car DON'T use pop rivets.
Pop rivets are for holding sheds together or attaching non load bearing brackets etc.

If you really feel the need to use rivets http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/blink.gif you should use solid rivets in shear only. Minimum double rows offset spacing with gussetting and doublers.
All loads must be in shear.
In many places on a car only blind rivets can be used ie one sided rivets, these generally will be slightly weaker than a double ended solid rivet.

Many race cars have been built using solid rivets ie aluminium monocoque F1 cars.
Rivetting must be done to aeronautical standards.

Stitch welding is by far more effective for strengthing a car.

Many things pop up on Jap drift cars that are just plain wrong.

[RobertoX]

sometimes my penis pops up over jap drift cars... is that wrong?

[Blown86]

Depends on what you are actually thinking of at the time???

It's a bit unnatural if you get that just looking and not when driving....

[RobertoX]

i have a car it goes sideways

[Dorio86]

Originally posted by truenosedan@Jan 19 2006, 03:26 PM
i have a car it goes sideways
If its a toyota it can go sideways

[Medicine_Man]

Wouldn't you be weakening the metal by drilling a bunch of holes in it for starters? I can't see why anyone unless on an extreme budget would consider it... MIG THE FUCKER! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[RobertoX]

Originally posted by Dorio86+Jan 19 2006, 04:00 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-truenosedan@Jan 19 2006, 03:26 PM
i have a car it goes sideways
If its a toyota it can go sideways [/b]
this is true

[ninja_86]

im one for rivets, but i use a special technique.........

[Jonny Rochester]

After everyone has had their opinion, it may be time to do some testing.

Get your rivited car on 4 jack stands. Replace one jack stand with a jack. Jack it up and down and measure the body flex. Do the same with a standard car, and again with a welded car. And again with a rollcage fitted.

Measure flex again on the rivited car after a few races and report back.

Personaly I am welding in a roll cage, the minimum tubes for CAMS. Then I may do some more welding if I feel like it, I am not fussy.

[driftke70]

i read somewhere the ueos car was starting to perform poorly, turns out his riveting had come lose, went back to his old welded body and hasnt looked back.

[butterz]

im a welded by trade and welding is the best one off way to reduce body flex but unless u know what ure doing it can be hard due to the thin material but one u have to remove ALL paint other wise u will get crappy welds and both front and rear sufaces that have been welded must be painted over. on the other hand

pop riviting is easy simple and can be done by anyone to get the best results use s/s and use an air riveter gun and one other good trick to stop them coming lose is to tig the top of the rivit with high amps (bonds steel together better)

just my 2c worth http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/2thumbs.gif

[starni_boy]

i want to get mine welded and my dad says there is no point, the spot welds and the silicon shit are strong enough.. is it really worth it or doesnt he know sh!t?? is it noticably stiffer?

[butterz]

i want to get mine welded and my dad says there is no point, the spot welds and the silicon shit are strong enough.. is it really worth it or doesnt he know sh!t?? is it noticably stiffer?[/b]


yes it makes a difference but it has to be done properly if it wasent affective why are all race cars / drift have some form of body strenghting??

[balistic]

If you like to know what works - just check out what professional race teams do - they tend to do things right when there is a lot of money tied up in the team.

I dont see many professional race teams with pop riveted seams http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/blink.gif

The only reason I can see that its done is cos any monkey can drill a hole and stick a rivet in it, welding requires that you know what you are doing and requires a little more work. If riveting is easier to do and just as good as welding for strengthening a chassis - then why does anyone bother welding seams?

[starni_boy]

im getting it done professionally by a guy up the road who owns a welding business. they do like the school awning things that are all welded up and like s/s handrails. he said he will get one of the guys that works for him to do it. so:
entire engine bay - seam welded
chassis rails inside(LtoR) - stitch welded
chassis rails inside (forward and backward) - seam welded
all of the boot - seam welded

does that sounds right?? or should the whole of the inside of the car be stitch welded?? any help would be good..

thanks