What kind of advantage do MacPherson Struts..

[Yotafetish]

What kind of advantage do MacPherson Struts give you while drifting?

[Jonny Rochester]

The advantages are, you can order your whole suspension off ebay in 1 unit and bolt it in.

[sonsta]

and they are easy to turn in to coilovers?

[resol]

none.

they are just cheaper to manifacure in bulk. which is why they are only found on low end cheap run about cars.

look at the old holden, fords, toyota's they all had a-arm, or wish bone susp. now days for cost they run macpherson.

-dan

[af300e]

What kind of advantage do MacPherson Struts give you while drifting?

They counteract gravity. Good for keeping the front off the floor.............. Cheaper to produce sounds about right.

[slydar]

none.

they are just cheaper to manifacure in bulk. which is why they are only found on low end cheap run about cars.

look at the old holden, fords, toyota's they all had a-arm, or wish bone susp. now days for cost they run macpherson.

-dan

i would have disagree with all of you.

the advantages for drift are quite numerous.

1 the control arm design is less bulky, giving more room for lock.

2 it is much cheaper and simpler to produce parts to gain control of aligment settings

3 the toyota strut design allows more simple control of roll center. no wishbone style front end can be modified in this way, you would need a new upright.

so easier/cheaper to get more lock, easier/cheaper to have control of the suspension geometry.

mac strut suspension design is generally considered to be inferior to double wishbone ect. but its not a "poor" design. i dont know about right now, but up untill a few years ago at least all Porsche vehicle used mac' strut.

[Sam-Q]

dont BMW still use it??

[af300e]

but up untill a few years ago at least all Porsche vehicle used mac' strut.

They also used torsion bars until 1987 and that was shit. It's only recently that Porsche's road cars have become good handlers. I've driven a couple of old ones and a few newies. The old ones are shit. An ae82 feels as though would it might out handle an early 911. I suppose at the time they were ok.

However, unlike torsion bars, Mac struts are not shit. But, they do have the not insignificant issue of very little camber gain during roll and compression. Whether this is an issue in drift i don't know. There are other issues with scrub and caster that are more easily and better accomodated by wishbone/a arm designs.
Also, their design (length and spring position) tends to a lift the centre of gravity and restricts how low the profile of the front bodywork can be although these are not really issues in most road cars.

The main reason for their use is cost. They are a compromise.
They are nowhere near the best front end for race purposes, but in the context of the topic, for drift it probably won't matter and the lock point is a good one. In fact, for most road cars it won't matter.

Sam, I think you are correct, the e46 still had them. Can't be sure about the current 3 series. With new cars it's hard to tell what's good and bad when the electronics mask many of the shortcomings. My brother has a work car, a bmw 120d. Feels nice with the traction/stability control on, tips in nicely etc. But, turn the traction control off and it's an understeering pig!

Apologies for the off topic. :embarassed:

[Sam-Q]

yes thats a very clever point of the electronics hidinging the neasties, like the evo and its lack of under then oversteer traits of an all 4 drive.

Now I agree that the macpherson strut front end does have a lack of good camber gain as an unequal length double wishbone suspension does.
However I think in drift this is a non issue because almost all the cars out there have very stiff springs which dont allow for much roll at all. So with either setup I am sure it would be best to just dial in the about of camber from static and through the castor.

Things like the scrub radius can be allowed for but its as you said AF, harder.

I also find your statement about the porsche handling very interesting because of all the hype about how good they where. I have always wondered how that was possible with some much weight behind the rear axle line. I will keep an open mind on this one, oops off topic again.

[Jonny Rochester]

Look under any 1970s Porsche and it looks like a 1950s agricultural vehicle compared to a Toyota. Probably because the basic design dates back to the 40s. But as a starting point, my KE35 would have been worse. I drove a 1974 911, and thought it would be comparable to my "TE37".

For drifting, rally, V8 Supercars etc... MacPherson struts work very well.

[Yotafetish]

Look under any 1970s Porsche and it looks like a 1950s agricultural vehicle compared to a Toyota.
I like.:hehe:.Facts none the less.
Thanks everyone,that was all I *wanted* to learn.

[af300e]

I also find your statement about the porsche handling very interesting because of all the hype about how good they where. I have always wondered how that was possible with some much weight behind the rear axle line. I will keep an open mind on this one, oops off topic again.


Don't get me wrong, the new ones are excellent. There was the 993 though, which would pirouette if you let go of the loud pedal mid corner. I've not driven one of those.....

I heard a rumour that the 993, 996 had 4wd added to the turbo because they simply would not handle. I don't know how that applies to the gt2. Apparantly the 997 is the first truly brilliant handler in 2wd guise.

[RobertoX]

For drifting, rally, V8 Supercars etc... MacPherson struts work very well.

Pretty sure the supertaxis run double wishbone... possibly even mandated by the rules

edit: struts are ok but one day I'll build a de'dion + double wishbone sprinter...

[slydar]

wow bulk prosche hate. didnt see that coming. ive never driven one, im sure the old ones are not that amazing, but a unique driving experience for sure.

anyway besides the point really. like af said, theyre not the best, but obviously can be made to work. and with drifting, the compromises are quite easily outweighed by the apparent immediate advantages of easy tune-ability, and easy of gaining large amounts of lock.

pretty sure the taxis are all double a arm now too. fords are, as they always were, then holden wanted to change to it.. with the way that class run, it wouldnt be surprising. my101 would have the answers, tons of v8s supercars on there all the time.

[Jonny Rochester]

All Commodore racecars up to around 2002 had MacPherson struts up front. Current V8 Supercars are identical between Ford/Holden, and more like a EL Falcon than anything else. (I am being very vague).

[Jonny Rochester]

http://www.my105.com.au/