Jap AE86 Brake Proportional Valve

[Tom86]

Hi guys,

Anyone actually own a genuine JDM Ae86? Is the brake propotional valve on them a staight bolt on replacement for Aus ae86? or is the brake line all different? a picture would be great.

Thanks http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[SprinterTRD]

The valves look the same but the internals are slightly different.

[exquisit]

the valve looks totally different
u can still buy these brand spankin from toyota
bolt straight in
brake line is the same
from memory...

[Astroboy]

Originally posted by upgarage@Feb 25 2006, 06:37 AM
straight bolt on
How can it be the same when the aus has rear drums and the JDM has disc rear ?

I think SprinterTRD is right and from my memory they look a bit different to http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/huh.gif

Maybe PM snake66 as he will have one removed atm

[SprinterTRD]

I fited one from a Celica with front/rear disks to my car and they look the same as the sprinter drum ones. They even have the same bolt mounts. Its the internals that are different to allow for the different pressures between drum & disk setup.

[scoot]

Originally posted by exquisit@Feb 25 2006, 12:43 AM
the valve looks totally different
u can still buy these brand spankin from toyota
bolt straight in
brake line is the same
from memory...
might i ask if you have the part number??!

[ae86 drifter]

is this the value that mounts to the strut tower???

[Gilly]

i have read somewhere (i wish i could remember where), that you can pull the guts out of a local one and it gives the right pressure to the rear discs, don't quote me but!!

[upgarage]

i used to have pics of the two types but i cant find them anymore

will try to take some pics, but its pretty hard to get a good view with the engine in

[Astroboy]

Originally posted by upgarage+Feb 25 2006, 03:24 PM-->

Originally posted by Astroboy@Feb 25 2006, 10:06 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-upgarage@Feb 25 2006, 06:37 AM
straight bolt on
How can it be the same when the aus has rear drums and the JDM has disc rear ?

I think SprinterTRD is right and from my memory they look a bit different to http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/huh.gif

Maybe PM snake66 as he will have one removed atm
where did i say they were the same?
i said they were/are a straight bolt on
which they are as i have swapped one in from a jdm wreck i used to have[/b]
Straight bolt on and deadly

What the pressure/fluid displacement difference between a drum piston cylinder and a disc piston

Basically i would love to see someone try to do a emergency stop in the wet with a aus valve in a jdm http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif unless they have very crappy pads or seized rear calipers in the rear there car would swap ends so fast it isnt funny

Both aus spec and Jdm valves already have a slight rear bias in the case of the 86's i have driven , adding a drum brake valve to a rear disc Jdm car would make this worse . You can make this better by balancing this back with better front pads .

Play it safe and if you are really unsure get a brake place to bench test the valve and its pressure http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif Don't just go of someones internet advice as you are playing with your life http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sad.gif

[Monster]

Ok, lets sort this out...

What Tom86 was asking is if the JDM BPV will bolt upto the stock position on the 86 strut tower. The answer is yes, physically they look identical, its the internals that are different.

[Astroboy]

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif So yeah the answer "straight bolt up" is very misleading

Since you really can bolt in a number of other ones from various toyota model's as well . But does or is it going to work correctly http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sad.gif ? trial and error there

Really why does anyone bother replacing it with a non adjustable valve http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif as mostly everyone has cars with various brake changes , vehicles at different ride heights to standard ! spring rates !messing with the anti dive angles , tyres with friction rating that where never about when the vehicle was first made http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/blink.gif to name just a few changes

Really making a new right hand brake line , bending the left hand one back to the master , and making a small line section to the 90' rear line joiner { just at under the car at the firewall to underbody panel join } to a adjustable valve and a small one to the master . And you can go changing pads , discs , drum , calipers masters whatever you want http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/huh.gif and adjust it all to work far better than banging in some second hand bias valve thats most likely more seized than the one you are replacing in the first case . $5 of brake line and maybe a $110 bias valve

Unless you are going to go to all the trouble of working out master pressure for bore , caliper area of pressure from piston sizes , friction of pad area , disc size , bias percentage required blah blah blah guessing bias is what you are achieving http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif so you might as well be able to change that percentage if need be http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif whilst you are getting brake fluid everywhere allover the engine bay http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/angry.gif just change it for the better http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Just add what state you are in http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif and there seems to be so many garages on this forum that for sure you can book it in with one if you don't have the tooling to carry out such a job

If you never have carried out or been trained to do brake repairs i would go near it since you are playing with the last thing before a huge impact http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/ohmy.gif

[exquisit]

haha
out of all of the people that have replied its funny how most are speculating

i dunno bout straight bolt in but a couple of new hole isnt hard is it?

scoot: sorry i dont have the part number
i bought it ages ago

BTW
the jap ones are a 2 piece n not a 1 piece lik the aus one

now fite some more!!!

[ToySprinta]

^^^yep, replaced my 1 peice BPV with a JDM 2 peice. bolts straight in.
i figure the boffins at toyota probably have a better idea of correct biasing than me.

[snake666]

i can post a pic tonight of the 2 pieces - one for the front has one line in from the master cylinder going to two lines to each front side brake caliper. The rear bias valve is one in one out which splits into two at the diff. They bolt in the same locations as the auspec one but not sure if they "bolt in" in regards to the brake lines all lining up.

[Astroboy]

Instead of all this "straight bolt in " rubbish its alot easier to get off you asses and take a picture b http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif ecause apart from having the cars side by side you and never going to really tell if its "straight bolt in" . Then come the tricky part of telling if the valving the pressure is anywhere close . And as i said before apart from bench testing these side by side there is not going to be anyway of testing that http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sad.gif

Here is a early JDM bias setup

http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/3581/enginebay1ob.th.jpg (http://img525.imageshack.us/my.php?image=enginebay1ob.jpg)

It's amazing how much more you are starting to remember upgarage http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

Who has a aus spec car ? take a picture and we might be close to working this out correctly and not just guessing like we where on club4ag or something

[upgarage]

ive had enough to trying to help people on this forum
too much shit talking

[Astroboy]

Originally posted by upgarage@Feb 26 2006, 03:24 PM
ive had enough to trying to help people on this forum
too much shit talking
Look man don't be that way http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/dry.gif Unless you have had maybe 10-20 cars like SprinterTRD here you would have never seen the differences

I am sorry for paying out on you a bit to much there http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sad.gif

But i just don't like seeing people playing with brakes as it bloody dangerious http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/ohmy.gif

I just was msned a thread on toolmods about people throwing z32 fourpots on the front of there 86's with not a single person mentioning about so much as a master cylinder change http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif or bias http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

When a 300zx has a 54/46 or 55/45 weight split and brake bias of 75/25%, way too much fronts there http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

Now if there where smarter they would go to a s13 caliper as the double action of a sliding caliper make the caliper only a bit less powerfull and more suited to a 86.
And there have 53/47 weight split and have a stock bias of 70.5/29.5%
With s13 front and toyota rear JDM calipers this can be closer to 65/35 figure which is ment to be the perfect split for 50/50 weight split . And this is still a figure which changes with friction area etc .

Here mess around with this simple spreadsheet and see http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

http://dsr.racer.net/docs/brakes.xls

[SprinterTRD]

Im with Astro on this one, people shouldent be messing with brakes unless they understand what needs to be done, Someone mentioned by taking the guts out of the ADM valve fixes the balance problem (yes it does work but I wouldent recoment it) But you loose one important safety feature, if you have a leak in either front or rear brake circuit the bias valve shuts off the faulty circuit so you still can stop.

[Medicine_Man]

Here are the pictures..

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/uploads/post-6-1138243839.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forum/uploads/post-6-1138243992.jpg

[upgarage]

Look man don't be that way dry.gif Unless you have had maybe 10-20 cars like SprinterTRD here you would have never seen the differences

once again u are saying that i said they are the same
it doesnt take a rocket scientist to work out what the differences are and u only need to compare a jdm and aus spec ae86

[Astroboy]

good on you Medicine_Man http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

Nice shinny booster there http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif


upgarage meh if you cannot understand the post

[Tom86]

The reason I asked the question is I've just done the rear disc swap and now it seem that rear break doesn't work as well or should I say there is less braking power than before.

After reading about what people have done to fix this including the one about gutting the springs from the original valve etc. the aftermarket propotional valve idea seem best. However after talking to the guy at the local brake shop he said that its not a good idea to fit aftermarket valve as they are not as good as everyone think they are. He recommended that I should do it properly with proper valve and booster etc.

So now that we have established that valves are physically different external and internal, but can be made to fit. How about the booster is the Jap one bigger? can you still get them new from toyota? what else is different?

Tom

[upgarage]

astroboy are you dorio86 because u talk a lot of shit

[ToySprinta]

Booster is the same. With my rear disk brake conversion all i did was change the diff and prop valve to the disk brake type.
Pulls up strong http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[Astroboy]

Tom86 , so the car didn't have discs before ?or did ? Or is it that the rear calipers on the diff you fitted are seized ?

doriogarage just accept you where wrong in guessing http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif

Don't get pissed at not knowing or you will never learn shit from anyone here or anywhere , see you have added to this post even when now you are just straightout being a dickhead http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

If you cannot prove differently or stand up against facts what is the use ? http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif pointless really

[exquisit]

keep fiting!!!!!
its the funny

jap booster is the same from memory
personally i wouldnt trust anyones word on these forums
if you really wana find out
get the epc out and have a looksie and compare yourself

let the girls keep fighting
=)

[upgarage]

ok astroboy
tell me what i was wrong about???

i said they were straight bolt in (which they are)
and i said they look completely different

ooo yeah
im right

[Astroboy]

Originally posted by upgarage@Feb 27 2006, 05:23 PM
ok astroboy
tell me what i was wrong about???

i said they were straight bolt in (which they are)
and i said they look completely different

ooo yeah
im right
Hey if your are going to start deleting your post to look like you where right http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

You really should think of how many time you have been quoted as being wrong
Refresh the first page http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif for a mod you cannot even use the forum to your advantage http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif you really are lost

edit : stop PMing me doriogarage

[Jonny Rochester]

Originally posted by SprinterTRD@Feb 26 2006, 07:28 PM
But you loose one important safety feature, if you have a leak in either front or rear brake circuit the bias valve shuts off the faulty circuit so you still can stop.
I don't agree whith this. The bias valve does not have any safety feature to help with leaking fluid. The only safety feature to do with that, is that the master cylinder is a duel system. If the front is leaking the rear will still work (a bit), and if the rear is leaking the front will still work (but your pedal will be down near the floor).

The bias valve works independantly of the front brakes. It limits fluid pressure to the rear brakes only. Drum brakes (when cold) are more efficient than disks so need less fluid pressure. (Old cars with drum fronts didn't even have a booster). Disk brakes need more pressure to work.

So when you put rear disks on a car that had drums you need to increase rear brake pressure. The cheap way is to remove the guts of the rear proportioning valve. BUT, test this on a quite road before going in traffic! If its good (rear brakes not locking before the front), then it's good. Be happy. If the rear are locking first, then buy a adjustable valve in place of the factory one.

[upgarage]

haha still cant answer my question
keep talking shit

what was i wrong about?

[Jonny Rochester]

Children, it's not raining. Go play outside.

[Astroboy]

Originally posted by Jonny Rochester+Feb 27 2006, 05:46 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-SprinterTRD@Feb 26 2006, 07:28 PM
But you loose one important safety feature, if you have a leak in either front or rear brake circuit the bias valve shuts off the faulty circuit so you still can stop.
I don't agree whith this. The bias valve does not have any safety feature to help with leaking fluid. The only safety feature to do with that, is that the master cylinder is a duel system. If the front is leaking the rear will still work (a bit), and if the rear is leaking the front will still work (but your pedal will be down near the floor).

The bias valve works independantly of the front brakes. It limits fluid pressure to the rear brakes only. Drum brakes (when cold) are more efficient than disks so need less fluid pressure. (Old cars with drum fronts didn't even have a booster). Disk brakes need more pressure to work.

So when you put rear disks on a car that had drums you need to increase rear brake pressure. The cheap way is to remove the guts of the rear proportioning valve. BUT, test this on a quite road before going in traffic! If its good (rear brakes not locking before the front), then it's good. Be happy. If the rear are locking first, then buy a adjustable valve in place of the factory one. [/b]
Good point , but if there is a master leak there isn't the pedal pressure for the bias valve to work or any brakes . So will bias really be the problem at that point ?

Sound like the best idea is to go straight to a modern internal bias valve then that matches the 86 http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif Any ideas people ?

please idoitgarage get a hold of yourself !

[Tom86]

Alright guys if anyone can tell me the part numbers for the ae86 disc brake type proportional valve I will be on my way and will probably never mention this topic again http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

Thank you

[Jonny Rochester]

You don't need part numbers for anything. Your friendly Toyota parts interpreter can look it up. Just tell him you have a import car, with these numbers:

Model: E-AE86-ECMVF
Frame No.: AE86-5069241

[snake666]

I have fitted a BM50 (1") nissan skyline master cylinder with the nissan booster to my hachi. Bolts up fine, yet to test it on the road though! Internal brake bias but I will no doubt have to put an adjustable valve on the rear line.

[Astroboy]

Originally posted by snake666@Feb 27 2006, 08:41 PM
I have fitted a BM50 (1") nissan skyline master cylinder with the nissan booster to my hachi. Bolts up fine, yet to test it on the road though! Internal brake bias but I will no doubt have to put an adjustable valve on the rear line.
nissan parts in a toyota http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/angry.gif shame on you snake http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/ohmy.gif

Ow btw thats a non abs master right ? http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

[ToySprinta]

Handy site:
http://www.hachilife.com/garage/?fiche=contents

Okay, early models (zenki) APPEAR to have single piece BPV's but different part numbers for drum and disk rear ends.
I think I have fitted a late model (kouki) two peice job.

Part No's
Drum: 47190 22040
Disk: 47190 12040

Brake system schematic: http://www.hachilife.com/garage/fiche/2f8.gif
Part No. Listing : http://www.hachilife.com/garage/fiche/2g8.gif

Hope this helps

[snake666]

nope - abs model. Ill be using a brake line divider to split up the front brake line into two. Rear - the same thing.

For $40 i couldnt knock it back!

[scoot]

Thanks for the part/chassis numbers, those who contributed!

Astro: learn some manners... same to your schoolgirl mates on here, too.