Building 4age

[johnny_08]

Hey,
I was thinkin about building up a 4age like some of u guys have done, with the ze bottom end, 100kw head, cams, computer etc. Do u reckon it'll be worth the money doin all this or just get a rebuild on the bigport?,how would it be HP wize or cheaper to get somethin different?, cept id rather stay 4age.
I just wanna use this as a weekend car sorta thing so i dont mind if its off the road for ages despite what my dad whinges about....For the money factor i can get a loan through contacts and prob have a few grand to spend. Im not a mechanic and have little experiecnce in doin anythin to an engine, so prob workshop quotes.

Write bac what u think.............

cheers

John

[roadsailing]

learn to spell and grammarcise

do some research. lots of what you have mentioned doesn't really make sense.

with limited mods, it really doesn't matter what version of 4AGE you use at all.

if you want big power, forget NA, its just too expensive to get any decent numbers.

[johnny_08]

Well first of all capt. grammer i dont care thats how i write, and what part didnt make sense? I was just thinkin of ZE for the forgies and stronger internals. Ive done heaps of research on toymods and stuff but u gotta pay to join that place so i just read threads, so i just want some feed bac from pple who have done somethin like this. Also im not after 200kw at the wheels dream on crap, im just thinkin of upgrading sometime.

[Astroboy]

Just quote the power you would like to have , and see if anyone has got to that level and with what modifications .

Some budget builds that come to might mind are just the simple 100kw , bigport cams and ecu { about 100hp atws http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif } .

And 100kw , aftermarket cams 264 , adjustable cam wheels , stock 100kw ecu piggy backed , needed a rev limiter cut badly , ITB's , ITB adaptor plate , aftermarket exhaust manifold , 2 1/2" exhaust { about 115-120hp atws at 7250rpm http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sad.gif }

Or bigport mild head work , cams 272 , adjustable cam wheels , 42mm webers and manifold , regraphed dissy , stock exhaust manifold , bigger exhaust { 125-130hp atws at 8500rpm http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif }

[exquisit]

if ur a titeass forget about na
=)

[xsoarerx]

NA is a hell of a lot cheeper than supercharging, or turbo

[mattysshop]

GZE bottom end is far to low compression for NA.. get a 100kw.. some people will argue black and blue that the bottom ends are the same as GZE ones.. others will say there are ever so slight differences.. either way, it's still a strong bottom end.. even the big ports are still good..

i would honestly just rebuild your bigport.. rings bearings.. chuck in a nice thin head gasket.. eg .5mm TRD steel one ( i can supply extreamly cheap, PM for details) deck the head a little bit, clean up the ports.. a set of extractors..and if you can some slightly bigger cams..even if it's just a mild increase.. eg TRD 252's you will definitly notice a completely different behaving engine.. after market ECU is optional, but always a good idea to see the max potential..

[johnny_08]

Hey Matty,
I'll Pm u today about head gasket, what u mean deck the head, u mean shave the head? and i was thinkin of 272 deg inlet and whatever ext, 260 somethin. Can u get them cheap aswell? http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif, u reckon cam gears are worth the money just for advanced timing or can this be done usin existing cam and makin them vernier cams and was thinkin about Haltech computer setup, or will this just be an exp waste of time.

cheers

John

[flamingheads]

Good stuff building a NA 4age. It seems like everyone just goes to s/c, 20v or turbo for power (for obvious reasons) but NA 16vs are ausome I rekon. good luck with it all and dont listen to what anyone says (unless theyre giving you advise about the build up http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif ).

[johnny_08]

Cheers flaming,
anyone know someone in syd who does all this porting and stuff?

[Monster]

Im pretty sure the biggest you can go with OEM ECU is 264 otherwise the vac signal on your MAP wont read.

Just remember this, a bigport unless it has been completly rebuilt is a 20 year old engine, its amazing how crisp a bigport feels completly rebuilt and freshened up, even with out any mods.

There is a company here in Artarmon (North Sydney) who does porting and polishing:

AGA Engineering
(02) 9906 2966

Fairly well priced and good blokes to deal with, one warning, dont sound like a NOOB on the phone!

[johnny_08]

cool,
what u sayin i sound like a NOOB? http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif . How long u reckon it takes to do a port and polish? I dont wanna use standard comp with the new cams, dont want them lumpy or whatever, i want it done and workin perfectly.

[mattysshop]

i only ported my head for about an hour or so.. enough to make a difference..

on the inlet side we opened up the roof and floor to match the new ITB inlet mani, knife edged the port stem, took a bit out the the valve bowl, and tear dropped the guides.. then shaved 25 thou off it.. and the exhaust side i just lifter the roof and ran a smoothing tape inside it all

(all work done by myself and Craig at extreme engineering)

[exquisit]

xcedricxÂÂÂ# Posted on Mar 1 2006, 12:06 AM
ÂÂÂ# NA is a hell of a lot cheeper than supercharging, or turbo[/b]

how did u figure that out??
haha
$ per kw ur sayin n/a is cheaper?

[johnny_08]

damn,
wish i was is brisbane.........

[xsoarerx]

Originally posted by exquisit@Mar 1 2006, 12:04 PM
<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE
xcedricxÂÂÂ# Posted on Mar 1 2006, 12:06 AM
ÂÂÂ#ÂÂÂ# NA is a hell of a lot cheeper than supercharging, or turbo

how did u figure that out??
haha
$ per kw ur sayin n/a is cheaper? [/b][/quote]
i thought about that guess your right $ per Kw turbo looks lik a better option but from what i was thinking is that if your starting with a 4ac the inital cost of a turbo looks to me like a much more expensive option getting a 4agze and then building it up for there.

but putting NA build up into consedieration i guess if you had a 4age, getting it ported polished, cams, valves... etc all new, it would be around the same cost as getting a 2nd had turbo set up.

[xsoarerx]

you could go a 7age. ive been reading up on it, you get the 7afe 1800cc bottom end, and put your head and everything else on to it, and while your at it change the pistons and cams.

the the over all horse power gain isnt very much jsut swaping the bottom end but there a large torque gain, and in a 1000kg car thats all you really need, and i guess forged pistons, cams would help you out a bit too. that what ive read anyway.

it seams like a cheeper option but a good one, something defently different too.

[johnny_08]

sexy 16's doin a 7a conversion, dunno what else hes got on it tho,forgot to ask him, so if the ze isnt much of a desirable option for NA i'll prob just keep the bigport, or do importers sell freshly rebuilt 100kw engines?

[The Doc]

Johnny, if you are on a tight budget. I will suggest you to use these.
20V silvertop block, rods.
100kw pistons.
86kw head.

give it a try, shouldnt cost you more than 3k to get all those gear and rebuild then.
There is a guy selling a set of HKS cams on this forum at the moment.
You might as well grab them and put them in.

[johnny_08]

wouldnt i need that new water pump thing for the 20v bottom end?

[fullmetal]

Only slightly off topic - has anyone knowledge of how far you can take a bigport using the stock ecu? I'm thinking 264 cams, cam gears, porting, extractors, exhaust, intake, some timing advance. Can you raise compression with stock ecu?

[FNFAT6]

^^^^ yes iwanna know that to ... hopefully will have a 4age laying around and me and a mate possibly will play with the inlet inlet, put mild cams in, bit of port and polish, it will also have extractors and zorst... sooooooo i second that question as above:P

past couple of weeks ive realised if u got the know how ae86's very cheap source of fun with good gains from ur work .

[mattysshop]

where the heck are you guys getting this stuff from!? 3 grand for a build up... shit... that better haul arse...

find a dead/smokey/blown head gasket 4age in the trading post.. pay the $200 the guys wants for it.. pull it down.. rings/bearings, hone the block, new gasket kit, new 4ac rwd water pump, get the head recoed by a reputable engine recoer including your new stem seals, if you can get a bit of port work done great if not still ok.. deck 25thou off the head.. your all set to go my friend...

it doesn't matter what engine you use with what ecu.. as long as you use the complete ecu/injectors/dizzy etc etc it will all work on any 16V 4age.. like mine.. it's a 100kw version.. running 88kw ADM AE82 ecu etc etc.. cos thats all i could get my hands on for $50.. but that ecu is only in there for another 2 days! adaptronics baby...

the main thing here with stock ecu's is vacumme if there is none, of low, it will idle very rich.. i connected a vac gauge on mine to see what it was doing.. it was bouncing from 0 to way off the end of the gauge..i have problems with vac on my quads.. thats why i'm going to an aftermarket ecu.. bigger cams will effect it.. but you can go a few sizes up without changing ecu's although your kinda shooting yourself in the foot if you don't, you will never get the full potential out of bigger cams unless you change your ecu..

[fullmetal]

How much are you shooting yourself in the foot though? Aftermarket computers can be expensive, you may not be at full potential but are you still getting bang for $?

Another aside, how much can you gain from adding aftermarket computer to a standard engine with extractors and exhaust? Is the stock ecu that bad?

[mattysshop]

stock motor.. i wouldnt do it.. but if you have quads, cams, more compression, different injectors.. it's pretty essential.. the ecu and tuning is like $1200... when your spending minimum $400 each on billet cams.. then need to shim up the head, and possibly upgrade your valve springs, it's pretty cheap...and you get to use your cams to the full potential.. i had been putting my ecu off for a long time.. thinking it wasn't really needed, and bang for buck, not really worth while.. but it really should be one of the first things you do if your serious in getting good hp/efficientcy..

Matty

[FNFAT6]

sorry if this is a newb question but,

ive read bout ur build up and boticed u put the quad TB on, is it worthwhile with standard ecu? ... expensive? thnx

[mattysshop]

Originally posted by FNFAT6@Mar 2 2006, 01:41 PM
sorry if this is a newb question but,

ive read bout ur build up and boticed u put the quad TB on, is it worthwhile with standard ecu? ... expensive? thnx
only if you plan on running a aftermarket later on.. the quads do play havok with the map sensor.. and it over fuels quite badly.. like 180km to a full tank of BP ultimate.. and has a few flat spots in the rev range.. i couldn't find someone that had used the stock ecu.. so i had to try it for myself.. don't get me wrong.. it starts first time everytime.. idles fine..revs right out and goes quite well.. just chew the juice like anything!

[FNFAT6]

Originally posted by Mattysshop+Mar 2 2006, 02:13 PM-->
<!--QuoteBegin-FNFAT6@Mar 2 2006, 01:41 PM
sorry if this is a newb question but,

ive readÂÂÂ# bout ur build up and boticed u put the quad TB on, is it worthwhile with standard ecu? ... expensive? thnx
only if you plan on running a aftermarket later on.. the quads do play havok with the map sensor.. and it over fuels quite badly.. like 180km to a full tank of BP ultimate.. and has a few flat spots in the rev range.. i couldn't find someone that had used the stock ecu.. so i had to try it for myself.. don't get me wrong.. it starts first time everytime.. idles fine..revs right out and goes quite well.. just chew the juice like anything! [/b]
ok so i ges its better off doing some inlet work then if u plan to use a standard ecu, as opposed to the quads

thnx

[mattysshop]

straight up yes.. maybe a bigger TB? porting extrude hone the inlet manifold would be a great start... you can still get great power from a big single TB.. quads are just a different way of getting it.. each to thier own... http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[johnny_08]

so how much u reckon a rebuild would be?

[FNFAT6]

ok well thnx ALOT some prety goos info right there i couldnt manage to find anywhere else ...

one final question:P.......

4age 16v + extractors + mild cams +inlet work + port and polish.... what kinda power am i looking at there ? i know its all relative cos u dont know how agressing the work being done is but just a ball park figure ?

thnx once again

[killjoy112]

holy mc shiit you guys suck i dont even own a car. yet i know the places to go
all right as for picing and performance mods your best bet is to goto bill sherwoods place here is a link for you http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif its got all sorts of power out puts for your willing and able almighty 4age i hope you enjoy http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/cool.gif clicky clicky (http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm)

covers 115-400hp na 4ag http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[mattysshop]

Originally posted by FNFAT6@Mar 3 2006, 12:12 AM
ok well thnx ALOT some prety goos info right there i couldnt manage to find anywhere else ...

one final question:P.......

4age 16v + extractors + mild cams +inlet work + port and polish.... what kinda power am i looking at there ? i know its all relative cos u dont know how agressing the work being done is but just a ball park figure ?

thnx once again
i reackon you would get around 125ish-130hp @ the rears.. but it depends alot on what cams you go for.. either way you will notice a quite big difference to a bone stock motor..

[rthy]

why not get a stock 20V and tune it for 98 octane fuel with an aftermarket ecu? they get some pretty good power.