4ag cams

[browneye]

G'day...

I am in the process of building up a NA 4ag and need reccomendations/advice/suggestions for cams...

I have silvertop quads with adaptor plate, power fc computer already tuned for quads on bigport, and am getting a 100kW motor which will be rebuilt, (new rings, pistons - to up compression to 11.5:1, bearings etc)..

I was thinking around 290 degree cams with around 10mm+ lift...

The motor is going in my sprinter which will be used for mostly circuit and a little drifting work...

Crow cams are around $700 - has anyone got experience with them?

What hp and torque could I expect with this set up and has anyone built a similar motor??

Regards

Scott Brown

[mattysshop]

I have built a similar small port motor.. with quads, portwork, more compression, bottom end bearings/rings etc.. and linished rebalanced the rods.. has adaptronic ecu.. with the stock smallport 232 deg and 7.1mm lift it makes about 104rwhp..but feels a lot stronger than that.. the dyno does have some calibration issues.. but with cams around the 280 duration and 8ishmm of lift I would be expecting in the area of 135-140 rwhp.. that is a estimate..

[browneye]

Thanks mattyshop...

I have watched your buildup, you have done a great job....

When are you putting in new cams?..........and what specs are you looking at?

Regards

Scott Brown

PS I was keeping an eye on Evan's build until it stalled.......I can't wait until he puts those Toda cams in (288, 8.8mm) - it will be interesting to see how they go>>>>>>>>>>

[mattysshop]

thanks http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

there are a few other areas on my car i am improving first.. like revising the suspension/brakes and tail shaft..

but i am looking at something around 272 and just over 8mm lift.. for the big lift you want you need to grind sections of the head out to allow the insane lift! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif

[flamingheads]

Buy my car, use its engine and save yourself some $$$.

[SprinterTRD]

OK first question, are you going to use standard buckets? this will determine what cams you can use. Also for the rest of you that are quoting cam specs please include wheather you are quoting "Advertised" cam duration like TRD or duration at 50 thou.

It makes a big difference to what you are suggesting

[browneye]

G'day...

The duration I am quoting is advertised...I have seen on club4ag, blokes that have 304 and above TRD cams that have f*** all power below 6500rpm - this is not what I want, I would prefer something with less duration and power that comes on strong around 4500 - 5000 rpm - I may be way off the mark with 290 cams, if so let me know waht you use and where the power is....

I thought lift below 10.5mm with not too aggresive a ramp could be used with standard buckets..if not, correct me and once again tell me what you are using.........

If I can't get away with standard buckets I guess I will have to use underbucket shims..........

Thanks in advance......

Regards

Scott Brown

[browneye]

Bumpity...........

Anyone,,, Please...c'mon I need help/advice so's I don't buy unsuitable cams....

Regards

Scott

[mattysshop]

i reackon 264 - 272 with less than 9mm of lift.. very strong torque.. have a look on club 4AG cam list.. anything that they have used in rally would be really good, as they are designed for mid range torque..

[mattysshop]

it does matter also how you dial the cams in.. like for example if you retard the factory inlet cam by a few degrees, you might notice the top end of the engine increase a little at the sacrifice of bottom end.. you can make minor adjusments like a few degrees with out too much hassle but a dyno session and a degree wheel would be very handy.. i've tuned mine by the 'seat-of-my-pant-o-meter' and you can feel it kick in different areas buy doing this..

[slydar]

one thing i dont understand is why people use a shorter duration on the ex. like you here of a few setups with 272/264..? why, in my experiance it is the exhaust side of the head that needs to catch up.

although ive heard of good gains in mild setups. if your motor is built and has quads and more CR i would spend a little extra and get HKS or TODA or tomei cams. you can be confidant alot more development work has gone into them and will allmost definately get a much nicer result.

as stated you dont want to go much higher than 8mm lift unless youre doing a shim underbucket or shimless conversion.

[mattysshop]

exactly D.. i would stick with matching cams.. dial in your lobe centers to give you the power band you want.. just buy upping the CR can give a nice torque increase.. or even an overbore to 83mm would make a difference.. sadly torque is not the 4AGE's strong point.. but there are ways around it.. like lightening the car http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif ha ha ha

[mc68]

interesting, i would also think that the Ex. side has to catch up, so you would use matching cams, (which i will probably do). But the Ae86 bible states that the grp. A race cars ran 304/288's (i -think- i havent opened the book in a while)

Im thinking for my car the toda 288's with 10.0 lift would be sufficient, although leaning to that or 304's...i dont know what to get :\

[shift_rook]

one thing i dont understand is why people use a shorter duration on the ex. like you here of a few setups with 272/264..? why, in my experiance it is the exhaust side of the head that needs to catch up.

although ive heard of good gains in mild setups. if your motor is built and has quads and more CR i would spend a little extra and get HKS or TODA or tomei cams. you can be confidant alot more development work has gone into them and will allmost definately get a much nicer result.

as stated you dont want to go much higher than 8mm lift unless youre doing a shim underbucket or shimless conversion.[/b]


How are you going to go over 8mm lift ?
The stock big and small port valve springs are only capable of 8.0mm lift ?.
With the stock installation height of 34.7mm they bind at 26.6mm compression and you have to go to underbucket shims . As far as the smaller cam in duration on the exhaust this follow the very basic rules of duration that some workshops still don't understand .
Smaller duration equals torque at lower rpm due to cylinder pressure and higher duration equals torque peak at higher rpm , there are other factors that change this .
Basically look and HKS , TODA , Tomei cams sets and you will see they all use lower duration on the exhaust cam in there sets standard , and TRD . You change this and you don't get the torque spread that make the 4age a great engine for it size , especially in the 16v .

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif You must be mixed up with 20v engines as you can only go to 9mm not 10.3 etc as on the 16v .


What about cam timing ? what does that do to all this , whats your "experiance" in all of this ?

i have driven a 304/288 car mc68 didn't make power to over 7500

[mech`s blue]

The main reason there is more duration on the inlet is because the engine requires more time to allow
the negative pressure differential caused by the pistons intake stroke to fill the cylinder, compared to the
pistons exhaust stroke pushing the spent gases past the exhaust ports and valves. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/greenbounce.gif

this is the same reason why inlet valves are always bigger than exhaust valves http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif

[shift_rook]

maybe instead of all this simple stuff thats really no use a list of what cams do what would be better ? Or what people have used

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/5850/camgrarally0cx.th.jpg (http://img212.imageshack.us/my.php?image=camgrarally0cx.jpg)


TRD 4AGE CAMSHAFT DATA Duration Lift Intake opening Exhaust opening Comments
240° 7.1mm 9°BTDC
(Stock -max lift at 111°) 51°BBDC
(Stock -max lift at 111°) Stock 4AGEU, Good turbo cam. Keeps exhaust pressures high without blowing back though intake manifold. Some have found good power setting the maximum lobe lift for the exhaust at 100°BTDC and intake at 100°ATDC. For more bottom end power retard the exhaust 4° and advance the intake 3°. For more top end, advance intake 4°and exhaust 3° from stock settings.
248° 7.5mm
256° 7.6mm Good bottom-end power and plenty of mid-range for passing.
256° 8.3mm
264° 7.6mm 26°BTDC 68°BBDC Increased performance, needs headers, more performance with higher compression. Mfg. Recommends setting the cam at max lift for the intake at 106° ATDC and exhaust at 116°BTDC.
264° 8.3mm
272° 7.5mm Increased performance, needs headers, more performance with higher compression, approaching limits of stock EFI, works best with side drafts
272° 8.3mm Using both intake and exhaust on a stock Supercharged 4AGEZ has less bottom end below 3,000, strong mid to high end power.
288° 7.5mm 57°BBDC Very strong power increase from 4,000 to 7,000 +RPM, less bottom end (does not idle very well). Used as a exhaust cam with 304° intake in TRD rally car (max lift at 98° BTDC)
288° 8.3mm
304° 7.5mm 52°BTDC 65°BBDC Japanese Group A racing cam, very strong power increase from 4,500 to 7000 RPMs. (requires race engine prep. and mods) Max lift set at 100° BTDC, exhaust and 100° ATDC, intake.
304° 8.3mm
272° 10mm Rally cam has good bottom-end torque and strong mid-range, revs to 7,500 RPM. (requires race engine prep. and mods)
288° 10mm - 10.3mm Rally cam has less bottom-end torque more HP on top, revs to 8,000 RPM. (requires race engine prep. and mods)
304° 10mm - 10.3mm 62°BTDC 76°BBDC Japanese N2 & Formula Atlantic racing cam. has less bottom-end torque more HP on top, revs to 8,000 ~ 10,000 RPM. (requires race engine prep. and other mods). Max lift set at 102° BTDC, exhaust and 98° ATDC, intake.


4A-GE 16V Camshaft Comparisons: Duration Lift Intake opening Exhaust opening Comments
232° 7.1mm 8° BTDC 47° BBDC Stock 4AG(Z)EU used on 90~91 Hi-comp. AE92 and supercharged AW11. P/N Intake 13501-16030. Ex. 13502-16020, Good turbo cam. Keeps exhaust pressures high without blowing back though intake manifold.
248° 7.45mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT030, Can be used on 4AGZE
256° 8.35mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT031, Can be used on 4AGZE
256° 8.5mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AGBF2, Recommended to use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
256° 9.0mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AGCJ1, Recommended to use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
264° 8.35mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT032, Can be used on 4AGZE
264° 8.7mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AGCJ3, Recommended to use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
264° 8.9mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AGAI1, Recommended to use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
272° 8.35mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT033, Using both intake and exhaust on a stock Supercharged 4AGEZ has less bottom end below 3,000, strong mid to high end power.
272° 8.5mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AG0P1, Recommended to use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
272° 8.7mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AG0B2, Recommended to use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
272° 8.9mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AGAI2, Recommended to use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
272° 9.9mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AG0P4, Must use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
272° 10mm TRD - p/n ex. 13502-AE831. N2 and Rally cam has good bottom-end torque and strong mid-range, revs to 7,500 RPM. (requires race engine prep. and mod.s) Ex. max lift set at 100° BTDC
272° 10.3mm Toda - p/n 02.TD.CS4AGCJ4, Must use Toda's valve train kit, i.e., under bucket shims
288° 8.3mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT034, Can be used on 4AGZE
288° 10.35mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT035, Can be used on 4AGZE
304° 8.3mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT036, Can be used on 4AGZE
304° 10.35mm HKS - p/n 2202-RT037, Can be used on 4AGZE

[mc68]

i have driven a 304/288 car mc68 didn't make power to over 7500[/b]


thanks dude.

im still in the theory stages until i actually buy anything..

[browneye]

Thanks for the help and feedback....

It sounds as though TODA 288 degree, 8.8 mm lift with TODA valve springs may be what I require.......

These are what EVAN has...just not installed yet......

Regards

Scott