Rear Diff

[MAT713]

hey guys,

I know there is a shit load of topics, regarding fairly simialar questions, but its hard to find a simple and direct answer http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/fap.gif

I'm building up my AE86 (still http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sleepy.gif ) and we have come to another little bump in the road.

WHAT DIFF SHOULD I USE???

now obviously most people run a T series, but i know i will quickly break one of those. does anyone know or where i can find a list of all toyota diff's that give Ratios, LSD options, HP load ratings, sizes etc??? or what could people recommend from experience ie raceflo http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

It doesnt phase me if i have to shorten it, or make new mounts, thats no big deal.

I just need something that can support close to 450rwhp all day and everyday that ISNT TO HEAVY http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wub.gif

[DRFT - 86]

same here............. hook us up with a definitive answer if there is such a thing....... although from my research it seems that a Hilux or F series (If I can find 1) will be the road I take..........

[flamingheads]

I think theres a list like this on toymods about toyota diffs. It could've even been on the old site. I'm too lazy to look but you can have a go.

[dr1ft-pig]

im buying a jdm disk brake with trd 2 way...should be strong enough

[MAT713]

ok well thanx for that ^^^ doesnt really help

a T series just wont last long with the driving style and horsepower mine will be making.

do u know have the link or any further info,it owuld be hugely helpful

[flamingheads]

try using the search function on their website or ask there if you can post there (I can't).

[RobertoX]

so you are buiding a drag car??

What motor if you dont mind me asking? no 86 needs 450hp to slide! use a hilux, but they arent light... supra (w58) boxes will even be marginal

[Solo]

There used to be a tech section on diffs on the old toymods website... found this on the 1st page of search: here (http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&th=85898&rid=&S=63e34690230a161ae9b8c25fe4e74c1e&pl_view=&start=0#msg_811664).
Well, good luck in your search!

[Big T]

G-series at the minimum. Truenosedan is right as well... unless this is a dedicated drag car, there's no need for that much power. If you plan on driving it hard, even the W5* series boxes will break under that load. Then you'll have to look for something even stupider/heavier like a R154 or an auto powerglide. Work out what you want as an overall package, not just a dyno-queen figure.

Eddie.

[psychofox]

I'm with Big T, a bit of an indication of the use of the car would help in your quest of the "Perfect Diff". If you're going to lay 450rwhp (as an aside - I'd like to know what engine/gearbox combo you think you're going to shoehorn to get that figure, but anyway) into it drag racing then Ford 9" ftw. Drifting probably a similar choice or a Hilux G series (8") diff. If it's a street car then an F-series (7.5") *might* suffice. There are a few MA61's going around with that sort of power at the wheels - don't know how long the diff lasts though.

Then there's always stuff like a Borg Warner diff as fitted to VN Commodores, R31 Skylines, EA Fairlanes, etc. Pretty large number of ratios available and they sat in front of V8s so they should have decent torque holding capabilities. But be prepared to be annoyed by incessant whining though http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sad.gif

[Hen is a total nutcase]

A database has been put together on toymods. It should come up with a search, or have a word to Norbie, he started the project.

IMO, NA or light turbo/SC go for a well built T series
Hardcore turbo, go F series.
Dedicated drag car, go G series (Hilux)

Also The Borg Warner is a possibility. Plenty of parts available.

Hen

[sanchez]

i have a g series in my sprinter and it's indestructable. mind you, that's with the old stock motor i had. i wonder if it will hold up to the 450hp motor that will be in it shortly

[psi_72]

you could go for a VL turbo diff, quite a few ratio's available, not too heavy i spose, i am thinkin boutthis diff for my sprinter altho it would have to get cut down a bit

[MAT713]

so you are buiding a drag car??

What motor if you dont mind me asking? no 86 needs 450hp to slide! use a hilux, but they arent light... supra (w58) boxes will even be marginal[/b]
no it's not a drag car, just an all round 'fun' car, will be drifting most of the time, but i want to take out some hill climb titles with it too and just general circuit racing.

I know you don't need this sorta HP for drift, but its fun!

how heavy are the hilux G series?


There used to be a tech section on diffs on the old toymods website... found this on the 1st page of search: here (http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&th=85898&rid=&S=63e34690230a161ae9b8c25fe4e74c1e&pl_view=&start=0#msg_811664).
Well, good luck in your search![/b]
cheers heaps mate! ive sent a PM to that name


I'm with Big T, a bit of an indication of the use of the car would help in your quest of the "Perfect Diff". If you're going to lay 450rwhp (as an aside - I'd like to know what engine/gearbox combo you think you're going to shoehorn to get that figure, but anyway) into it drag racing then Ford 9" ftw. Drifting probably a similar choice or a Hilux G series (8") diff. If it's a street car then an F-series (7.5") *might* suffice. There are a few MA61's going around with that sort of power at the wheels - don't know how long the diff lasts though.

Then there's always stuff like a Borg Warner diff as fitted to VN Commodores, R31 Skylines, EA Fairlanes, etc. Pretty large number of ratios available and they sat in front of V8s so they should have decent torque holding capabilities. But be prepared to be annoyed by incessant whining though http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/sad.gif[/b]
sorry i should of mentioned yes, primarily the car will be drifting, but also a fair amount of cams state rounds and also local hill climbs.

BTW its powered by a series 6 13b turbo, single turbo. we have a near identical motor in a series 5, its been racing for nearly 4 years, gearbox has held up fine, so at this stage its mated up with a series 5 rx-7 box. after toying with the rotary's for a couple years we think we have found the perfect driveable and reliable combo and we wanna stick with it.

im tossing up at this stage between the G series or something along the line of a VN diff, both appear to be very strong, just stuggling to find exact details on both.



what model hilux's carried the G series diff's? obviously 6 stud, choice of centres? or ratios?and finally disc or drum? thanx guys

[DRFT - 86]

the VN diff sounds like a good alternative.......... anybody clued in to how much modification is needed to get one of these fuckers under a hachi...?

[MAT713]

shortened,
brackets made and welded on,
panhard rod mount,
coil over mount (well in my case)
new axles
decent LSD centre

[MAT713]

at this stage I'm inclined to go the VN diff, simply cause of LSD and mini spool centres available, plus a fair amount of ratios


what does the G series offer in ratios, centre etc?

[DRFT - 86]

Yeh the VN dif is selling me at the moment..... what does it weigh compared to a hilux unit ..? and what size is the VN diff housing..?

[scoot]

i actually happen to have one that i pulled out of my car. i'll take some pics for you today.

weight = quite a lot

[scoot]

http://apex.net.au/~danorms/fkndiff.JPG

http://apex.net.au/~danorms/fkndiff2.JPG

http://apex.net.au/~danorms/CIMG0120sml.JPG

there ya go... hope these are of some small help.

[DRFT - 86]

cool, also forgot they had disc brakes aswell...... sick...

did that come out of a VN or another car ......? just out of interest....

[scoot]

it actually came out of my Sprinter, but it was originally from a V8 VN commie... i think they're a pretty consistent thing from VL Turbo through VN/VP V8's? just a Borg Warner diff...

please consider the unsprung mass before you go with this option. i have no scales to weigh this, unfortunately, but it definitely has a few kilos over the T-series.

[hinricp]

is it possible to fit a silvia/skyline whole rear end?

[rthy]

they have IRS which needs some work...
that VN diff gives me ideas, also the hoppers stoppers is pretty cool, $1200 for a rear 2twinspot universal weld on 4 or 5 stud kits, also front upgrade kits as well, worth a look imo

[scoot]

yeah gives me ideas as well, especially for RA23/28/40 celica. the VN diff i have is still 5-stud, so it's a pretty good start. then all you need is some RA23/28/40 struts for your VN/VP V8 front rotors to go on, and a bracket for the caliper of your choice. once again, unsprung weight in the front would be an issue for some with the 1-piece commodore hub/rotor assembly (bloody big chunk of steel), but it would be a pretty tough setup with 300mm+ rotors and some decent calipers.

[psychofox]

you are better off using a ford sourced borg warner diff, as they are 5X114.3 PCD Axles, whereas the Commodore is 5X120 PCD. Much easier to get nice Jap wheels that way. Form my research something like an EA Fairlane or Fairmont that have LSDs are what you are after.

[scoot]

bullshit... you love the interceptorz!!!1eleven1twelve! http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/laugh.gif

http://apex.net.au/~danorms/wideshot.JPG

[DRFT - 86]

you are better off using a ford sourced borg warner diff, as they are 5X114.3 PCD Axles, whereas the Commodore is 5X120 PCD. Much easier to get nice Jap wheels that way. Form my research something like an EA Fairlane or Fairmont that have LSDs are what you are after.[/b]


yeh very worthy point that is........

[Hen is a total nutcase]

I'll just add the info I found out about Borg Warner diffs a few years ago. All of this is from talking to diff shops, not personal experience with a tape measure.

VL til recently and a fair number of Falcons of a similar period all share the same style Borg Warner diff.

In my opinion the Borg Warner LSD centres are pretty crap, though maybe my experience has only been with very worn out units. In any case a 20 year old Commo or Ford LSD will need a rebuild.

Also R31 Skyline and same shape Pintara share a diff. R31 is a good source given it has 4 by 114.3 axles. A 4.1 ratio can be found in the Pintara. R31 centres are 4 pinion, Pintara are 2 pinion. The axles in these diffs thin out after the splines, so they can only be shortened a small amount (1/2 - 1").

Some of the Jap companies do (did?) good mechanical LSDs for the R31. Talk to some of the R31 nuts to find out what exactly is available though.

I also just realised that I have forgotten whether the R31 diff is the same Borg Warner style as Commo/Falcon. If it is then parts can be mixed and matched, if not then clearly they can't.

Hen

[scoot]

you're pretty spot-on, Hen... they're far from the best LSD in the world, and for a Sprinter i would suggest there must be better options, unless you want to drop the hell skidz on a daily basis and don't care about the mass... but factoring the cost of modification, there would be other options to consider as well. an IRS would be of interest to me in the next couple of years.

i replaced my the diff pictured above with a jap t-series, which i have faith in, but i'm sure it wouldn't take the abuse the the BW would.

what else do we know of that has been used???

s-series
t-series
borg warner (pintara/falcodore)
andthen???

[DRFT - 86]

G - series
F - series
E - series

[loarm]

F series diff, what car is that out of? Also what is the PCD on it?

[Blown86]

I'll just add the info I found out about Borg Warner diffs a few years ago. All of this is from talking to diff shops, not personal experience with a tape measure.

VL til recently and a fair number of Falcons of a similar period all share the same style Borg Warner diff.

In my opinion the Borg Warner LSD centres are pretty crap, though maybe my experience has only been with very worn out units. In any case a 20 year old Commo or Ford LSD will need a rebuild.

Also R31 Skyline and same shape Pintara share a diff. R31 is a good source given it has 4 by 114.3 axles. A 4.1 ratio can be found in the Pintara. R31 centres are 4 pinion, Pintara are 2 pinion. The axles in these diffs thin out after the splines, so they can only be shortened a small amount (1/2 - 1").

Some of the Jap companies do (did?) good mechanical LSDs for the R31. Talk to some of the R31 nuts to find out what exactly is available though.

I also just realised that I have forgotten whether the R31 diff is the same Borg Warner style as Commo/Falcon. If it is then parts can be mixed and matched, if not then clearly they can't.

Hen[/b]



I went through all the possibilities a while ago including looking at a Nissan independant rear end.

I chose the BW setup, IIRC it is essentially the same diff from R31 Pintara to VP Commodore and the equivalent year Falcon. These are the 4 pinion centres with bigger axles/more splines.

The diff is a BTR78 to be exact.

I got hold of a Pintara version, the axles are already 4x114.3 pcd hubs, althought the centre 'shoulder' is 68mm where as the 86 uses around 50mm IIRC.

It's easy enough to machine down the 'shoulder' to 86 size.

Only one side of the BW needs to be cut to get it to Sprinter width.

You can get good quality CWPs from Drivetech for about $600, Kaaz do a centre and you can source them if you look carefully for around $1200

Weight wise the BW is not as heavy as it looks, the empty housing is quite light, I'll know exactly the difference in weight between the 86 lsd diff and the BW later in the year when I swap over.

In reality and the reason I went for the BW, if you want a stronger diff you will need to cop some extra weight. The BW housing is quite light and most of the weight is in the axles, CWP and centre where at least the weight is useful. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[hinricp]

^^ what nissan rear ends did you look at ?

I know nothing is possible but a silvia rear end would be perfect but how hard would it be adapting a silvia rear end into a 86 ?

[Blown86]

Mainly the S13/S14 rear ends.



Anything is doable with money and time.



You need to strengthen the rear of the car and do a fair bit of welding and cutting for the diff mounts and suspension mounts.

I couldn't be bothered going down that road, if I was to I'd design up a proper wishbone suspension to stick in.

The Nissan arms etc are quite heavy, and a lot of care needs to be taken to get the angles right or you'd end up with shit geometry.

From memory, the rear track would increase substantially as well creating problems.

This mod is illegal for a registered car, unless it was engineered very carefully.

[darkon]

toyota celica ra40. all the hardware in them is rated to handle a 5L v8. buy urself an ra40 for $20 or sumin and just rip out the drive shaft n the diff. oh by the way... 450 horse hachi... u rule! lol

[Big T]

toyota celica ra40. all the hardware in them is rated to handle a 5L v8. buy urself an ra40 for $20 or sumin and just rip out the drive shaft n the diff. oh by the way... 450 horse hachi... u rule! lol[/b]

An RA40 has a T-series... dunno why you think that would be appropriate for this setup???

Eddie.

[darkon]

that information right there is ALL i know about diffs n driveline. just trying to help http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

[cleb]

hey all

i have a hilux G-series in my sprinter and heres a couple downfalls i have found with it.

1. Cant find a decent Centre for it, had a few shimmed lsds but all open wheeled and it costs to much to get all new plates. so i am considering putting a spool in it. Has any of yous had experance with fully locked diffs and would yous recomend it for track work?? does anyone have any good sources for a decent lsd centre for a G- diff.

2. they are big, the only just fit in the rear end of a 86, as in where the center fits in the trans tunnel... on mine the diff angle is all wronge and diff has hit the body afair few times... really need adjustable arms

basically they are a really stronge diff but hard to find good centres for them. I would probably recomend using a smaller diff if your not planning on putting out too much power... put it this way.. a guy i was talking to the other day spent 8K!!! setting up his g-series diff in his sprinter... REALLY nice setup though http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif.