Advantages and disadvantages of a locked differential...

[PuGZoR]

Hey all,

Didn't know what forum to put it in, I suppose it's kind of technical though and has to do with the specific properties of changing a particular part, so I guess it's in the right forum?

Anyway, due to budget constraints I'm seriously considering a locked diff for my hachi. Mainly because it's like 1/3 of the price of getting a legal two way LSD'd setup. I wanted to know what peoples experiences with locked differentials are, so I know what I'm getting myself into. Here's a few things that I've heard, so if people can dispel or confirm them they'd be great.

Pro's Two wheels, all the time
Easier to slide
No worn out LSD's to service
Cheap
Extra "hardcore" rep on the streets for having a fully sick uleh drivetrainCon's Illegal on the street
Skippage around tight corners
General bitch around tight corners
Further tyre wear without smoke
Prone to understeer at low speeds
Now the tyres I've got on are 205/55/R15's on 15x7.5's, all around, as I'm sure tyre width probably has something to do with how bad you suffer from all the above.

Thoughts please!

[Hen is a total nutcase]

You understand this pretty well. Only other thing is that a locked centre is more likely to break axles.

It is very noticeable that it is nicer to drift a good LSD than a locker. I think its a bit to do with the lack of understeer and the smooth lockup.

However it all comes down to how much money you are willing to spend on this.

Hen

[ke70dave]

im just curius, i know a fair few of the members on here have lockers? (correct me if im wrong...) how many of you have been defected for it? is it something they generally check for in ae86/ke70?

[Blown86]

A CIG locker is completely shit on the road, you will destroy axles and tyres and the handling will be crap, diabolical in the wet. The car will be illegal.

A CIG locker will be borderline shit on the track and you will almost never be able to completely tune out the nasty characteristics for decent handling. Perhaps it's possible to reduce the potential handling problems with about 2 times the cost of putting a decent diff in spent on suspension....

If a locked diff was the answer, there wouldn't be a market for decent lsds.

Of course if you just want to dorifto, disregard all of the above and join the land of numbnuts. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif

[Gilly]

i know of a few guy's that use lockers for drift cars to some success, and in steert cars too.

as mentioned more prone to snapping axles. Pugzor this won't be as big an issue if you are using the diff we spoke about. it would be an issue however in an s or t series.

under steer is more noticeable compared to an LSD. but is something you would be used to in a week and you would adjust your driving style to suit or can change the effects with a biger rear swaybar. there are ways to reduce it but it will always be there to some extent.

some LSD's chirp on corners too not just lockers!!

as Hen said you have all the pro's and con's there you just need to make your choice.

with your engine and box already looking to costing you a small fortune, i would opt for the locker.

as evey one knows they are illegal on the street but lets face it so is a lot of shit we do to our cars.

[DRFT - 86]

I threw a locker in mine a few weeks ago for laughs.... only driven it once on the QLD mountain strap.. (as I dont have my license) but its not as bad as I thought it would be.... although still a bitch.... If you have the power to spin both wheels consitanly around corners and slide em it wouldnt be so bad... but if your trying to hold tight lines ect then its a lil weird, constantly pushing you into understeer and squeeling on every tight turn.. lol
I have found that the brief sideways action that I have done with it to be alot better in terms of a controlled slide, or more so easier to hang the rear out and not so easy to spin as a single spinner........
yet to drive in the wet with it...... but should be fun... or not... time will tell.... still got another 2.5 months before I can drive my car legally again....
plus the locker was picked up for nothing as a member on here was giving it away......
still dont know if I will keep it in or not..... just have to see how it goes with regular driving in a few months time..... definatly going to be putting a different diff with LSD in down the track though.... most probably a 1.5 way...

[balistic]

I'll be doing the CIG locker on my S series to begin with - coz it'll cost me nothing and get the car rolling! Once that breaks (possibly on the first outing!) http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif I'll be looking into the other stronger options that have an LSD.

[RobertoX]

A CIG locker is completely shit on the road, you will destroy axles and tyres and the handling will be crap, diabolical in the wet. The car will be illegal.

A CIG locker will be borderline shit on the track and you will almost never be able to completely tune out the nasty characteristics for decent handling. Perhaps it's possible to reduce the potential handling problems with about 2 times the cost of putting a decent diff in spent on suspension....

If a locked diff was the answer, there wouldn't be a market for decent lsds.

Of course if you just want to dorifto, disregard all of the above and join the land of numbnuts. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif[/b]

i had welded diff in my daily for almost a year of caning, broke one axle in a borg warner ke70, then put t18 in, no worries

the handling was awesome, in fact it lapped mallala in 1.29 on 4psi and with fuxored tyres, it was awesome around mallala in the wet (drift) very predictable, i didnt get defected in 8 months of daily driving, and when i did it wasnt for having a welded diff, also the welds were fine and i never changed the diff oil

it was good on the track, and the other people who drove it, even those who had lsd though it was good
it did have good suspension tho

v8 super cars run locked diffs (spools) chris o (ipra ae86) runs a welded diff, in fact he said he did 10 laps with lsd and then 10 laps with locker... took the lsd out sold it for $900....

not saying that i wouldnt take an lsd if i got given one lol!

[Blown86]

i
under steer is more noticeable compared to an LSD. but is something you would be used to in a week and you would adjust your driving style to suit or can change the effects with a biger rear swaybar. there are ways to reduce it but it will always be there to some extent.

with your engine and box already looking to costing you a small fortune, i would opt for the locker.[/b]

It's very hard to balance out the understeer in, oversteer out characteristics of a locker with sway bars (assuming you get on the throttle hard), a larger bar will most likely just affect turn in. Mid corner power on and corner exit will be limited due to the stiffer rear end giving more oversteer.

If you've spent good money on the engine and gearbox, it's a bit odd to then compromise on a fundamental part of the handling of the car and effective balance. There's essentially free horsepower in a good diff and brakes/suspension.

[PuGZoR]

Blown86, I'm guessing you've forked out for a proper LSD and everything? Heh.

The way I'm looking at it now is that because a locked diff is cheap enough for me, I can probably get one just to have dorifto now and get it on the bloody road, and when I actually have the money later (Heh, when I win lotto or get my super, whichever comes first), I can upgrade to a decent LSD'd diff.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd love to have something legal and more comfortably dori'd, but yeah, at the moment I don't think I've got enough cash and unless there's something major I'm kind of leaning toward a cig locker for the time being...

[Blown86]

Yeh no worries, you were asking for the pros and cons...

Maybe you'll like the locker http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif

There's a point in setting up a car to reduce ultimate grip, be careful of that, I've seen a lot of guys really pissed off after going the locker way... And then trying to get it work well.

[Blown86]

v8 super cars run locked diffs (spools) chris o (ipra ae86) runs a welded diff, in fact he said he did 10 laps with lsd and then 10 laps with locker... took the lsd out sold it for $900....

not saying that i wouldnt take an lsd if i got given one lol! [/quote]

V8s have no choice they must run spools due to the rules, to save money. Trust me they'd love to run lsds, I spent a night discussing that with a HRT power train development Engineer a while back. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/wink.gif

You can achieve a lot with balancing track etc and having good suspension using a locker, Chris O would be an example of that.

In this case we're talking about a bloke that running out of money, start getting into good suspension and as you probably know it makes an lsd look like beer money, not talking about the run of the mill stuff.

[RobertoX]

you make fair points, but i heart lockers for the price

[Course_Out]

I think a better question is if you have a grand to spend on your car should you:

a ) Buy an lsd (if your lucky) and have a stock suspension car with a tight diff

OR

b ) Get your diff welded (carton of beer) and spend the change on springs/shocks/swaybars, thus having a tight diff and decent suspension?

[PuGZoR]

Already purchased suspension products (front AJPS coilovers and rear short stroke springs and shocks, 8kg and 6kg respectively, front and rear swaybars and aftermarket panhard rod....), so it looks like I'm getting a welded diff then? Heh.

[DRFT - 86]

Stock suspension FTML

[decoyslikecurves]

I found the locker I had in my previous hachi with coilovers front and rear, agx adj shocks, bracing front and rear and descent alignment made the car drive and handle like shit.

Before I put the locker in, was just running an open diff and about 2 weeks of runnning the locker was enough for me to not want to do that ever again.


changed handling characteristics, understeery ont he street at least and gave funny jerking and bouncing characteristics on fast entrys (grip driving) into corners etc

[slydar]

A CIG locker is completely shit on the road, you will destroy axles and tyres and the handling will be crap, diabolical in the wet. The car will be illegal.

A CIG locker will be borderline shit on the track and you will almost never be able to completely tune out the nasty characteristics for decent handling. Perhaps it's possible to reduce the potential handling problems with about 2 times the cost of putting a decent diff in spent on suspension....

If a locked diff was the answer, there wouldn't be a market for decent lsds.

Of course if you just want to dorifto, disregard all of the above and join the land of numbnuts. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/rolleyes.gif[/b]

i am considering deleteing your posts.

you sounds like a keyboard warrior to me.

please reply with some description of your real world experiance. ill be able to tell if youre lying pretty easy.

[PuGZoR]

I think it's also worthy to note that I used to own an MR2 SW20 Turbo with LSD, and tyres that turned to slime in the wet. Off boost, at like 2.5krpm going around average traffic light turn corners, the back end would slip out on half throttle. I presume this is somewhat close to how annoying an locked diff in a hachi in the wet would be? Heh, so many close calls in that car, but I could drive it safely if I wanted to.

[RobertoX]

maybe im used to driving cars with welded diffs or maybe you are all soft

but my car really never had any issues, the only time i ever noticed it was on reverse parking....meh

just run decent rims/tyres on the rear and all should be good

[slydar]

i drove it in the wet. first time i did i was like "hmm iver heard you should be carefull with lockers in the wet"

first big open corner WWWWWWAAAAAAAHHHH-BBAAANNGGG- BAAHHHAAHHHHHHhhhh huge clutch kick. hehe took me about 4 fishies gutter to gutter (across a 4 lane road) to gather it.

if youre not a dick and drive slowly and cautiosly its fine though, when it rains, just drive like youre in the car with your driving instructor when you first got your license.

to actually drift in the wet (when youre trying) theyre heaps of fun.

my car had power steering arms, and quick rack, and a locker. the steering was heavy http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/smile.gif but i still never got tired of that car, infact i miss it. it was a chore sometimes but the fun out weighs the few moments its a bit of a pain.

[Hen is a total nutcase]

My mum has driven my car around with a locked diff in it. She didn't even notice.

Yes they can be a pain, but you learn very quickly how to drive them. Then its no real drama, even in the wet.

Plus if you drive on the road so close to the limit that a locked diff will make your car unpredictable and scary then you are a cock.

Hen

[flamingheads]

It sounds like locked diffs help a lot with drifting but how are they for grip driving? The stuff people describe makes it sound like it would slow the car down and an open diff would be better.

[balistic]

It sounds like locked diffs help a lot with drifting but how are they for grip driving? The stuff people describe makes it sound like it would slow the car down and an open diff would be better.[/b]

Cant speak from experience as I'm yet to use a locker on the track, but put simply I think its compromise for grip driving. Its going to MUCH better than an open diff for getting power down out of corners. Might make things a bit awkward on corner entry.

A properly set-up LSD would be the ultimate - all the advantages of the locker but none of the dissadvantages! The question is - for what you do is the advantages of an LSD worth the price over a simple locker?

cant speak from experiance? then theres no need to post really, cheers

slydar

[RobertoX]

my mum has also driven with lockers and just though, oh it doesnt have power steering, didnt say anything about oh whats that noise etc

also

as i said before 1.29 around mallala on 4 psi on shit tyres 2nd time out with a welded diff, no worries!

[Blown86]

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[/b]

i am considering deleteing your posts.

you sounds like a keyboard warrior to me.

please reply with some description of your real world experiance. ill be able to tell if youre lying pretty easy.
[/b]



Perhaps I was attempting to be a bit too succinct with my opinion in that post and I can see why you might think that.

I was replying to the initial post and making an assumption that Pugzor may be an inexperienced driver and not have a full understanding of the difference between a open centre, lsd and the way a locked centre behaves. Locking your diff will void your insurance, that's a fact.

I first played with locking a 9 inch in about 1983/1984, in a 2 door falcon, a diabolical handling POS in the first place, but fun with a warm 302 in. http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/biggrin.gif

I've driven a number of different cars with locked diffs over the years, RX7s, RX3s, Falcons, RS2000 Escorts, Various Holdens. Sprinters etc. I don't believe that they're suitable for the road and are compromised on the track, limiting ultimate grip and unsettling the car. They need some degree of tyre slip angle to compensate for no differential action or they want to push the front wheels or will chirp/shudder the inside tyre. That isn't really the best way to go for road driving, even if it's fun. There's a reason cops and Insurance don't like them beyond the actual modification of the diff centre. I've also driven detroit lockers - don't like them much either. But at least with a DL you don't get the unsettled rear end under brakes that you get with a locked diff, particularly when the road's bumpy.

I like a locked diff on dirt!! Great for sliding and throttle control, still find the unsettled twitchy rear end under brakes a pain in the arse 'though.

I've never done it to a Sprinter, mates have. I've driven Sprinters with locked diffs, the first one about 1992 and a couple of others along the way.

Perhaps I've seen worse case examples than others.

I've also followed closely a NA Sprinter on the track with a locker and observed it's handling in the wet and dry. In the wet the difference was marked between my car and his. I was using a jdm lsd and could power down better even with a 4agze, my car having pretty shagged rear shocks and too stiff springs in the back at the time... He just went sideways and there was no way he could tighten his corner exit.

You can tune suspension for a locked diff, playing with rear/front track can help things. Plenty of race cars use locked diffs. However a race car normally has a lot more tuneability in the suspension and is set up to slide. You won't find lockers in open wheel race cars for a reason. Except for oval track, where they use stagger instead and spool the diff.

I've seen a few half shafts with twisted splines from locked diffs including Sprinters. You can get a lot of 'wind up' in the half shafts, in a Sprinter diff the shafts and splines aren't very big, a lot of us have already encountered the problems with that. Seen shagged CWPs as well, but it could have been the age....

I don't believe it's allright just to say a locked diff is fine for the road, there are a number of reasons why. I'd hate to see someone take out themselves or someone else because a few people say it's great for drift or 'mine handles great', too many variables to consider.

BTW Slydar, would you like my Mum to write me a note?? http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/tongue.gif

[driftke70]

im locked and loaded and fucking loving it.

i can throw it around so easy now, it was sketchy with the open.
i can grip drive harder and faster, rain driving isnt the best, its like playing sega rally.

but i wouldnt want it any other way

[slydar]

no note required. you did exactly what i asked you to, cheers.

i agree with what youve said, i think you just weight more heavily the cons than i do.

[balistic]

cant speak from experiance? then theres no need to post really, cheers

slydar[/b]

He didnt ask for experience - he asked for information which I had. I was just letting him know that I did not have experience "on the track" with a locker so he could make his own mind up as how to take the info, but thats not to say I dont have any experience with a locker or I dont know what I'm talking about! Who in this thread HAS on track experience with a locker? Did you tell all them not to bother posting?

Looking at your past moderating efforts, I'd suggest you lay off the moderating unless your sure you have something to moderate or you'll turn these forums to an overmoderated crap heap like so many others http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/forums/emoticons/huh.gif