Stock 20v or worked 16v? Help me decide...

[Stain]

I've had my heart set on a 20v for as long as I can remember and had actually purchased one... but now have been fucked around and no longer getting that engine (long story - moving on) so now I'm left with the decision of what to do...

I have budgeted $4300 for a stock 20v Silvertop, all the RWD conversion gear, (kaizen stuff, inc those trd copy extractors) an Adaptronic ecu, trumpets, lightyweight pulleys, a fuel pressure reg, full exhaust and then a bit more for the x factor...

Now the thing is... I have a 16v small port sitting here, so I started thinking - would it just be better to rebuild it (it seriously needs it) with some nice internals and get away with it for a similar cost but end up with a engine quite a bit better?
So I priced up a bunch of gear...
intake/exhaust 272 8.1mm camshafts, adjustable cam gears, timing belt, valve springs, high comp head gasket, high flow 4-2-1 headers, high power exhaust, fuel pressure reg, silvertop quads, t3 adaptor for smallport, trumpets, lightweight pulleys, adaptronic ecu... and then slapped a bit extra on for good measure (labour, etc) and it came to $6300...

Now my questions are... firstly, is there anything I've missed for making a nice 16v? (I didn't look at replacing rods or pistons, should I?)... and secondly, is the list above worth the $2000 on top of the relatively stock 20v?
And finally I was looking mainly at HKS parts... how do they rank next to trd, tomei, toda, etc?

[rthy]

which parts would you get from HKS?

[Stain]

HKS Camshaft Toyota 4A-G(Z)E - Intake - 272 degree - 8.1mm lift
HKS Camshaft Toyota 4A-G(Z)E - Exhaust - 272 degree - 8.1mm lift
HKS Cam Pulley Toyota 4A-G(Z)E For All Duralum / Slide, Both inlet side and exhaust side (x2)
HKS Fine Tune Timing Belt Toyota 4A-G(Z)E
HKS Valve Spring Toyota 4A-G(Z)E
HKS Head Gasket Toyota 4A-GE - 0.6mm - Bore 82.5mm

[nanes]

HKS Camshaft Toyota 4A-G(Z)E - Intake - 272 degree - 8.1mm lift
HKS Camshaft Toyota 4A-G(Z)E - Exhaust - 272 degree - 8.1mm lift
HKS Cam Pulley Toyota 4A-G(Z)E For All Duralum / Slide, Both inlet side and exhaust side (x2)
HKS Fine Tune Timing Belt Toyota 4A-G(Z)E
HKS Valve Spring Toyota 4A-G(Z)E
HKS Head Gasket Toyota 4A-GE - 0.6mm - Bore 82.5mm[/b]

imo go with the 16v, but look for cheaper parts.

eg,

look at WADE cams they make a variety of grinds for the 4age 16v, made in aus and wont cost an arm and a leg.

for cam gears look at fidenza, iv used these and they are fine, great tune ability prob cost less then the hks items (i dont know hks prices though)

Timing belt, get oem, cant go wrong with toyota parts, also side note, always buy toyota oil filters they cost a little more but its worth it

look at Performance Valve springs, they make a good spring for the 4age at a smaller price

and H/G look for TRD 0.8mm should be 1/4 the price of the hks gasket

thats just a little bit of info to get started, also the standard fuel pressure reg is fine so dont waste your money

and get some mild head work done, just remove any bumps and casting marks etc

get a good set of 4-2-1 extractors get the quad throttles on there and you should be looking at about the 160hp area which equals ~120kw so ~100rwkw which will be awesome fun to drive and sound fantastic

good luck,

James

[stefan]

yup cheap power funtastic and fun win 100 rwkw is fun as dont forget to get motor rebuilt rings seals etc will help aswell 4age is piss easy to rebuild!

[drft86]

hks cams and cam gers arent that dear, 1300 max

[nanes]

fair enough..

WADE cams are around the $400 area for the pair + fidanza gears are roughly $200 to $300...

just another option :2thumbs:

[rogz]

HKS Camshaft Toyota 4A-G(Z)E - Intake - 272 degree - 8.1mm lift
HKS Camshaft Toyota 4A-G(Z)E - Exhaust - 272 degree - 8.1mm lift
HKS Cam Pulley Toyota 4A-G(Z)E For All Duralum / Slide, Both inlet side and exhaust side (x2)
HKS Fine Tune Timing Belt Toyota 4A-G(Z)E
HKS Valve Spring Toyota 4A-G(Z)E
HKS Head Gasket Toyota 4A-GE - 0.6mm - Bore 82.5mm[/b]

I'm just about to get my smallport done with:

mild porting (just cleaning up & matching)
HKS cams 272 degree - 8.1mm lift in/ex
Technotoytuning adj cam gears
silvertop quads with Technotoytuning adaptor
Trumpets & sock filters
TRD 0.8mm headgasket (someone is selling one for $100 in WA - see http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=26740)
Motec M4 (already in car)
TRD valve springs
Leaving the bottom end as is

Engine is in the car and it's too hard/expensive to bother changing it to a 20v or supercharged/turbo. I got almost all the bits from various forums/ebay/trademe.co.nz. All either brand new (cams, gears, adaptor, head gasket) or excellent condition (quads, trumpets) and much cheaper than new. I suggest you set out a shopping list and wait for them to come up.

Sounds like more or less what you're thinking. It should be all done in the next 2 and a bit weeks. Will let you know how it turns out.

[ke70dave]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I'm looking around more at 16v parts and got a few more questions...

Is there complete rebuild kits still available for 4age's? Including all bearings etc.. Where do you get em from? (Toyota?)
Is it worth getting aftermarket Valve Guides as well as the Springs?
And what Pistons suit the smallport, 18mm or 20mm pin?

Edit:
And is there any advantage to using different duration cams for intake/exhaust?

[johnny_08]

how much did u spend toysprite? cause my motor is fckd, sorta, so id like to get somethin nice in there seeing as im gonna have this car for ages

[rogz]

how much did u spend toysprite? cause my motor is fckd, sorta, so id like to get somethin nice in there seeing as im gonna have this car for ages[/b]

Parts in total came to a bit under $2000 - that's another head, new cams, new cam gears, new technotoytuning adaptor, new gasket, new springs, quads, trumpets. Then I have to add labour for porting, to fit it (not so straight forward in my car - AH Sprite) and reprogramme the ECU. I reckon I probably saved around $800-$1000 on parts by scrounging around a bit. I didn't need to buy a new ECU as I have the Motec. Might get a few $ back from my old head – complete & with intake & TB & TPS (complete - anyone want one?). I'm sure I'll be spending some considerable $ to port the head, set it up and tune it on the dyno. I am not touching the bottom end at all.

It could be a WHOLE lot cheaper by forgetting about the quads and putting in slightly milder cams that work with the stock ECU.

The decision to stick with the 16v was pretty much made for me because it is already in and there'd be heaps of work to get something else in. If I could easily swap it, I would have seriously thought about a 4agze or turbo. Not so sure about the 20v.

[RobertoX]

i have the full rebuild kits here pm me for extra special price

they are 20mm gudgeon pin

sounds good!

[Stain]

I mustnt be looking hard enough. I've got off and priced up parts again and the total came to $7300 without Headwork or Labour...

TODA High Power Profile Camshaft 304 duration, 8.5mm lift
TODA Heavy Duty Valve Springs
4AG Valve & Guides
T3 Adjustable Cam Gears for 16V 4AG
4AG Lightweight Crank Pulley
4AG Water Pump Pulley
Timing Belt
ARP Main Stud Kit
ARP Flywheel Bolt Kit
Spool Forged Rods with ARP Bolts
10.7:1 Arias Pistons
Head Gasket Set with Bolts
TRD Head Gasket
Race Bearing Set
Oil Pump
HKS Hydraulic Oil Pressure Kit
Cusco Oil Catch Tank
Silvertop Quads
T3 20v Velocity Stacks
T3 20v ITB Adapter for 16v 4AG smallport
Adaptronic ECU
TRD Spark Plug Leads
HKS Super Header Type II Exhaust Manifold
HKS High Power Exhaust

Or am I just going over the top?

PM'd you Dave

[johnny_08]

i reckon u dont need the bottom 3, just normal plug leads will do not the trd marked up stuff, and just go to an exhaust shop for the exhaust setup, u dont need an expensive hks system for it. im not sure about the oil pressure kit thing so i wont say anythin but does all that include labour?

[johnny_08]

double post, got excited :P

[Stain]

Nope, no labour.

[johnny_08]

wow for 7300 id go turbo, regardless of insurance price :P

edit: how bout getting a new crankshaft instead of the quads?

[julzy]

How about a 7age.
Just a 7afe and 20v head.
You can get a head with quads for a few hundred.
New ecu, head work, rods and a exhaust you should be looking around the 100-120rwkw area.
And probably cheaper then a lot of the other options.
And performance parts for a 20v aren't to hard to come buy and the major problem with the bottom end rods, can be solved with getting some decent rods

[johnny_08]

i was having a look at a few 7age build ups, dont look too bad. wonder how much theyd cost to do

[Hen is a total nutcase]

Stain, I'd rebuild the 16V. You have it in there already and so it will save work, plus there is the argument (which I don't want to reignite here) as to whether the 20V is any better than the 16V once you get to the pointy end.

Plus it looks like you are going for big brand stuff at normal listed price. By scavenging for sale threads and eBay for a while you can usually find things much cheaper. And also looking at other brands, for example some of the local cam manufacturers rather than HKS, will reduce the price too.

Hen

[Stain]

Got a list of local Cam manufacturers?
I've looked at Wadecams and Crowcams but the duration @ .050 / .075 confuses me, and I'm not sure how it relates to the JDM cam specs...
Plus none of them list prices