Master cylinder question for AE86

[maxhag]

Hey guys,
I have to get myself a bigger bore master cyl for my brake upgrade.
The kit suggests a 1" master.

So my question is, Does anyone know of any larger Master cylinders that will bolt up to the AE86 booster?

I believe the Mitsubishi Starion Turbo one is a 1" and bolts up, but I have been looking for months, and are too hard to find. >@ Brand new, and thru the Starion club, they are $415,:omg: and they said there was only one left in the country.

I have also heard something about an R32 or R33 (cant remember which one) one bolting up, but its not confirmed.

Does anyone know of any other Masters cyl's that might work for me?

thanks,
JoJo

[Javal]

Hey guys,
I have to get myself a bigger bore master cyl for my brake upgrade.
The kit suggests a 1" master.

So my question is, Does anyone know of any larger Master cylinders that will bolt up to the AE86 booster?

I believe the Mitsubishi Starion Turbo one is a 1" and bolts up, but I have been looking for months, and are too hard to find. >@ Brand new, and thru the Starion club, they are $415,:omg: and they said there was only one left in the country.

I have also heard something about an R32 or R33 (cant remember which one) one bolting up, but its not confirmed.

Does anyone know of any other Masters cyl's that might work for me?

thanks,
JoJo

R32 Non-ABS master cyl fits.

[Sprinterboy]

Hey man, srroy for not SMS'ing ya back, got busy with crap

"Tokico Brake Master Cylinder" is what i've got
it's a 17/16th MC with the same bolt pattern as the AE86/KE70

$270new

Pic

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/5/1/2344.jpg

[reecegze]

i bought a r32 with abs MC from nisswreck for $100 bolts straight in and needs orignal lines to be modified to suit

[Javal]

Hey man, srroy for not SMS'ing ya back, got busy with crap

"Tokico Brake Master Cylinder" is what i've got
it's a 17/16th MC with the same bolt pattern as the AE86/KE70

$270new

Pic

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/1/5/1/2344.jpg

See if you can find a partnumber for that. Not that it's toyota, but it will be something.

[Vance]

i think a mitsu pajero one bolts up

[Javal]

i think a mitsu pajero one bolts up

Correct.

[Sprinterboy]

See if you can find a partnumber for that. Not that it's toyota, but it will be something.

I'll try and find one, but from memory, it didn't have one in it.

[maxhag]

i think a mitsu pajero one bolts up

What size bore is then Mitsu Paj one?
And What size is the Nissan R32?

[Tom86]

Mitsubishi Pajero one is 15/16 bolt straight on Aus 86 booster. But one of the outlet use a different fitting. What brake setup are you running that require a 1"?

[Sprinterboy]

*cough*Wilwoods*cough*

;)

[maxhag]

Its the Full Hopper Stopper Kit

BA Turbo Falcon discs (290mm i think) and huge PBR twin spot calipers.
Designed for a BA Falcon, 1600kg
Sprinter weighs in at 920kg, you do the math.......

R31 (slotted) brakes on the rear.....

[maxhag]

want pics?

[Tom86]

want pics?

Nah I see it everyday when I look at the car:DD you don't need 1" for the hopper kit. It will make the brake feel very hard and no feel. You want something like smaller I reckon a 7/8 would be perfect.

[H8CHIR6KU]

what master you got on yours tom? i thought you just running standard one with your hopper stopper kit?!:unseen:

[xero]

i have the same kit, been running with a STANDARD master cylinder for the last 12mths. pedal needs a good stab, but stops on a 5c peice.
tested fully on the track a heap of times never failed. barely even got hot....

tom you've got the hoppers master cylinder, apprently the skyline master provides a lot more feel compared to the after market tokico one. plus its about half the length of the sprinter one, making it better for QUADS :sunnies:

just have to bend one of the lines to fit the master cylinder better.

also might want to look at adding a bias adjuster so all the braking force is not applied completely to the front.

[Sprinterboy]

um......... you'll find that you have brakes at the back. and they are in use evey time you press the pedal. its just most cars are setup 60/40 - Front/Rear or greater. You'll only need the adjuster if the rears are locking up before the fronts. or if you want to play with it on track

[Stain]

Does the R33 non-abs (BM44) also bolts up?

[xero]

um......... you'll find that you have brakes at the back. and they are in use evey time you press the pedal. its just most cars are setup 60/40 - Front/Rear or greater. You'll only need the adjuster if the rears are locking up before the fronts. or if you want to play with it on track

thank you captain obvious.

now, seeing as you know everything about brakes i keep short and simple.
when you upgrade your front brakes to much (MUCH!) larger front brakes and keep your standard rear brakes, most of the braking is now done by the fronts as they require much more force to clamp to the disc. the rears often dont get as much force applied and dont clamp as hard. quite often you end up with 90/10 front braking, which means you more likely to lock the FRONT brakes than the rear.
even if you upgrade the master cylinder, you still have this bias problem becuase the same force is needed to clamp the fronts, you just have a better pedal and feel.
normal cars are 70/30 or 60/40 as you stated. fitting a bias adjuster will set the clamping force back to the normal 70/30 or 60/40.


DEREK: yeah man, R33 non abs is pretty much the same as R32 just have to bend one line around a bit. also, S14 works but they are all ABS which is ghey...

[Tom86]

what master you got on yours tom? i thought you just running standard one with your hopper stopper kit?!:unseen:

I was using a 1" Nissan Petrol before but don't like the feel of it so now I'm running a 15/16 Pajero master. I still think it is too big so now I'm thinking of going even smaller like a 7/8 but can't find suitable one yet:sleepy:

Xero yeah the brake bias is a still a problem, but I'll only put the bias adjuster in as a last option. I'm currently in the process of upgrading my rear brake to S13 rotors hopefully that will make a different.

[xero]

how big are the s13 rotors tom? are they the turbo or non-turbo ones? are they similar to the R31 brakes?

[LittleRedSpirit]

*cough*Wilwoods*cough*

;)


When will people learn to read. The Wilwood kit is designed to use a standard mc. Its on the TTT site FFS.

[LittleRedSpirit]

thank you captain obvious.

when you upgrade your front brakes to much (MUCH!) larger front brakes and keep your standard rear brakes, most of the braking is now done by the fronts as they require much more force to clamp to the disc. the rears often dont get as much force applied and dont clamp as hard. quite often you end up with 90/10 front braking, which means you more likely to lock the FRONT brakes than the rear.



Seeing as how you know everything about brakes Ill keep it in your condescending tone.

In my experience, a caliper with more pad area has a greater amount of force needed to overcome the extra friction of the larger pad. Rotor size serves only as a leverage increase.

So to this end, when you upgrade front brakes the rears often lock early as a result, since you are applying more force through the braking system to make the front effective, the rear will lock. Ive never seen it go the other way.

90/10 sounds odd, its more like 40f/60r with a big front brake setup. To this end, you need to limit the force going to the rears. With a bias adjuster you can only limit the pressure, not increase. I don't know how your comments reflect this.


On to my next point. I hope you got the hoppers kit built around a strut with a larger stub axle and bearing than ae86 or you've just missed out on the one main potential advantage of the kit. The weak point in AE86 front suspension is surely the tiny wheel bearings, which resent deeply the extra forces of big front brakes. I believe the kit includes CNC hubs and adapters, which they can make to suit any stub axle and bearing you want to run. If you didnt start with an XT130 strut then you missed out on the only real advantage of the kit over the Wilwood upgrade. The hoppers kit is a lot heavier and more expensive too.

[xero]

When will people learn to read. The Wilwood kit is designed to use a standard mc. Its on the TTT site FFS.

???????????????????????????????

quoted directly from techno toy tuning website:
"Big Brake Kit for AE86 Corolla


This Big Brake Kit is a direct bolt on for the AE86 Corolla and features 280MM crossdrilled rotors, Wilwood Forged Dynalite Calipers and stainless steel lines. You can choose pad choice from street/sport to full race.

Blank rotors available by request.

These rotors have been tested under the most grueling road race and rally conditions and have the heat dissipation capabilities required for all your needs.

This kit is available for any vehicle using AE86 struts and requires 15" or larger wheels. Please call or email us with any questions."


littleredspirit you should take some of your own advice, and learn to read.
i have had this kit on my car for 12mths. and the fronts do more of the brake than the rears. ive neve once had my rears lock up at all...
and you just confirmed everything i said, as you need more pressure to apply the clamping force on the brakes as they have a larger diameter. but the friction is still the same its just applied over a larger area, so in essence it would be harder to lock the brakes due to the larger friction surface area. also most of your braking is done by the front, so i still dont know how the hell you can lock your rear brakes as you claimed to see, when most of the force is always applied to the front. and if you have a larger surface requiring less friction to stop, the fronts rarely lock as well.

[Tom86]

In my experience, a caliper with more pad area has a greater amount of force needed to overcome the extra friction of the larger pad. Rotor size serves only as a leverage increase.

So to this end, when you upgrade front brakes the rears often lock early as a result, since you are applying more force through the braking system to make the front effective, the rear will lock. Ive never seen it go the other way.



I don't know what experience you have with brakes, but what you said above about the rear will lock up before the front when you upgrade to a bigger front brakes is simply not true. People with big front brakes please comment.

When you upgrade your front brakes to something bigger like the Hoppers kit you increase the effective caliper piston area (larger pads) and the rotor effective radius (bigger rotors) which equal to increased mechanical gain giving you more braking power to the front wheels for the same amount of pressure from the master cylinder.

To prove my point, my car used to lock the rear first everytime after I installed a rear disc setup from a Jap ae86. This is no longer the case after I installed the Hoppers kit. Now the car will lock the front first everytime. This is the reason why I am installing bigger S13 rotors to the rear to restore brake balance.

xero S13 rotors are 259mm turbo and non turbo appeared to use the same size rear rotors. Don't know how that compare with R31 setup.

[LittleRedSpirit]

My mistake on the Wilwood Kit and the site saying that you need a standard MC, it was an email from Gabe that told me to use the standard one. It doesn't say change it though does it? But it just plain doesn't specify.

My experience:

Add Wilwood kit to an AE71 with std drum rear. Rear locks first, everytime, feels much unsafe.

Change ADM diff to Kouki LSD and keep std bias valve. No braking force to the rear, certainly nothing like a lock up.

Change to JDM Bias Valves, close to perfect brake force distribution with no bias issues.

Ive had soo many discussions with my mechanic about brakes, and he agrees that when big front brakes are added to a system it usually leads to locking rears. He even told me to have an adjuster handy to dull down the rears when the fronts go in, just in case I needed it.

The Wilwood kit has only a slight increase in pad area over a standard AE86 pad.

Id be curious to know what the complete braking systems in your cars comprise, as it seems to have a lot to do with having the correct bias valves for the setup upon reflection.

I still say you two are the only two people who I've heard have front lock-up issues from this type of upgrade. What rears and bias valves were you guys running when the fronts were locking?

[LittleRedSpirit]

Ive done a lot of reading now about this issue. The difference between our situations seems dependant not on pad area, but on piston area, as the area that the fluid contacts on the piston is the only quantifiable thing as far as fluid pressures go. Pad area is irrelevant and misleading to speak on as its a small detail next to the fluid behavior in the system, and pads vary wildly in design and area from caliper to caliper.

Assuming we have the same braking system except for our fronts, if your calipers have a smaller total piston area, they will lock first.

Use this formula to check for yourself:

Pressure = force / area

(think stilettos vs slippers on a lawn - smaller stiletto easily pushes thru, slippers stay flat on top. Same force applied due to same person wearing both, but the stiletto punches thru cause its under greater pressure due to the reduced surface area)

If you increase the front piston area above standard, the rears will always lock first using this rule. A greater amount of pressure is required to displace a larger piston, so as you add more piston size, you need more foot pressure to do the same braking. As you increase the pressure in the system the rears reach the amount of pressure they need to lock before that threshold is reached for the front.

This is science you cant argue with it. My simplified explanation above wasn't that good, but I think this does it.

I found a thread on Toymods where you, Tom86, are asking about rear brake upgrades due to this same issue and someone even posts the same anecdotal evidence as I have observed about the rears locking. So why you telling me its BS? It happens on every upgrade that increases front piston size. Thank physics for that. 8 months go by and you've still got issues? Good to see you can get to the bottom of things when you put your mind to it.

Here's the thread so people can verify:

http://www.toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=35110

I think you have a unique problem with your setup, firstly, you possibly bought a brake upgrade with a reduced piston area over standard. If this isn't the case then perhaps your front tyres are bad, maybe some nice sticky front pads and some shagged rear brakes combine to give you this issue, there's also an extra 10mm of leverage thanks to a 290mm rotor.

Or possibly you went ahead and changed the master cylinder, bias valves, front calipers and rotors all at once and you have no idea which of these is contributing most to the issues your having.

I did a good 9 months research on which upgrade to get, and I must say, I'm glad I chose the Wilwoods. It works awesome. What decided it for me was the quality of the Wilwood product. Shits all over a twin piston BA caliper, weighs less too. The good thing about the hoppers kit is the money stays in australia, but honestly, with results like you guys are having, they dont deserve a cent.

You guys never answered me whether you used bigger stub axles, cause a 290mm rotor locking all the time isn't much good for tiny 86 wheel bearings.

Anyhow Id like to know what your full setup is.

You might try changing to an adm ae71 rear pressure limiting valve, like the one i discarded to make my brakes work, since you have the opposite problem.

[Simon-KE70]

Does the R33 non-abs (BM44) also bolts up?

yes all the nissan masters have the same bolt spacing, as in you can use the S13/S14 silvia;s also. S14 looks very much like a R33 item anyway.

if you want a new booster then the brake booster from any of these nissans will also bolt up and is the same pattern as the toyota 4 bolt.

If ur using a nissan master, then dont use that shitty toyoya brake proportioning valve, use the nissan one.

[LittleRedSpirit]

I have a question related to master cylinders, hoping someone can answer it for me.

Im just wondering if anyone has a picture of a kouki AE86 master cylinder with its angled stud pattern. All installed in the car is ok, as long as I can see which way the angled pattern goes and I can find out the centre to centre spacing of the studs.

Please Help Kouki AE86 owners!!!:sleepy:


If all goes well I might have a solution for running long stacks on an adm 20v!!

[70XIN]

I'm doing FC/FD front brakes, with rear drums from a tarago (just part of my diff...)

What master cylinder/booster/proportion stuff should i run?


On another note, a friend of mine put an S13 booster in, has two ports for the front brakes, and one for the rear, i think he was saying something about removing the proportioning valve thing altogether?? It was new years day though, so i was fairly hungover

[Stain]

As far as I know the nissan masters have the proportioning built in, which is why the nissan boys fret so much about which BM to get when they upgrade front/rear brakes.

I've upgraded to R32 Skyline 4pot fronts with a 280x22 rotor and RT142 Corona 1pot rears with a 269x10 rotor.

With the standard AE86 brake master and ADM proportioning valve the pedal was very soft until about half way where it would grab and pull you up nicely. But if you were too violent the fronts would lock.

Now I've just installed the R33 GTS-T non-abs BM44 on the standard AE86 booster and removed the proportioning valve... I'll let you guys know how it feels.

[Simon-KE70]

not all nissans have prop valve built in, the later ones do but s13 and r32 ones dont i believe, they have a small little valve about half way down the firewall towards the rear of the car

[Jonny Rochester]

The kouki AE86 master cylinder has two sets of holes, so it can still bolt to your old booster.

[LittleRedSpirit]

Thanks for the reply. I'm wanting to run a ke55 booster, which has an angled stud pattern for the master and the same 4 bolt pattern as the ae71 on the other side. It just happens to be close to 2 inches smaller in overall diameter, making more room for velocity stacks and such luxuries. I really just want to know which way the studs are angled and what spacing thay are at to compare to my 55 booster. Might be able to run uncut 100mm stacks if all goes well and the kouki master cylinder fits the ke55 booster.

[Jonny Rochester]

Also consider a 1977 KE30 booster, as that has the same bolt spacing as AE86.

[Simon-KE70]

R33 master fits and works perfectally, has built in proportioning valve on the rear line and is small and compact unlike the 32 one. There are two types tho but the right one to get has F and R on the body of it, where as the other one (ABS item) has S and P cast on it. no prizes for guessing what F and R stand for either....

http://img56.imageshack.us/img56/8228/pc090006iv5.jpg

[Sam-Q]

LittleRedSpirit: I have heard someone talk about stock axles bending due to their small diameter, any thoughts?

maxhag: can I suggest you take your car to a local weigh-bridge? the result may suprise you

[LittleRedSpirit]

LittleRedSpirit: I have heard someone talk about stock axles bending due to their small diameter, any thoughts?


Can you be more specific please Sam. Stock what axles? Small diameter?

[sr_rolla]

i think he means stock ae86 stub axles

[LittleRedSpirit]

Well, some people bend them to get them at a more appropriate angle and to equalize camber. I think when this happens its more likely the struts are bending than the stub axles. My mechanic has a jig to do it.;)

As far as big brakes having an effect on the stub axles, I'm not too sure. I personally haven't had my brakes in for long enough to check mine out. I'm more concerned that the bearings will deteriorate and the flimsy pressed steel caliper brackets will distort and cause uneven pad wear. My brakes make a kind of bizarre friction noise when they stop as hard as possible, there's definately some powerful forces there.

[Simon-KE70]

quite a few of the jap ae86 drifters have bent their ae86 stub axles... it doesnt take much really, just general thrashing will do it after a while.

bending struts to get camber is nothing new, the rotary guys were doing it when the RX2's and the like came out lol

[Hokey]

simon what did you do about the stock proportioning thingo? i just want something that'll bolt up without needing to modify my lines. running corona rt132 twin piston calipers at the front and hilux drums at the back (fkn huge!) pedal is very spongey atm and want something bigger.

cheers

[Thestitt]

yes all the nissan masters have the same bolt spacing, as in you can use the S13/S14 silvia;s also. S14 looks very much like a R33 item anyway.

if you want a new booster then the brake booster from any of these nissans will also bolt up and is the same pattern as the toyota 4 bolt.

If ur using a nissan master, then dont use that shitty toyoya brake proportioning valve, use the nissan one.

what sort of size are these boosters compared to a KE70

any ideas??

[Simon-KE70]

larger in diameter but thinner over all.

[s14seriesII]

nissan master cylinders have casting marks like bm38 (7/8 bore) bm44 (15/16) bore and bm50 i think is 15/16 or 1"

the r32 r33 and s14 non abs all came with bm44 unless they were n/a in which bm38

someone please feel free to correct me if they have seen something differ from this

and who ever said s14 never came out without abs is a twit

[4000GT]

As far as I know the nissan masters have the proportioning built in, which is why the nissan boys fret so much about which BM to get when they upgrade front/rear brakes.

I've upgraded to R32 Skyline 4pot fronts with a 280x22 rotor and RT142 Corona 1pot rears with a 269x10 rotor.

With the standard AE86 brake master and ADM proportioning valve the pedal was very soft until about half way where it would grab and pull you up nicely. But if you were too violent the fronts would lock.

Now I've just installed the R33 GTS-T non-abs BM44 on the standard AE86 booster and removed the proportioning valve... I'll let you guys know how it feels.

Hey how did this go mate? The proportioning valve built into the BM44 master cylinder correct? So its an install and forget mod? I just popped one in my project car and will do all new lines.

[s14seriesII]

the proportioning valve is built in yes..
its very easy to change while in car.. only requiring a quick brake bleed after instalation,

amongst the same master cylinders (bm44) for instance there are different valves to suit different cars, and they are all interchangeable, even from a bm38 or bm50,

its all up to trial and error the valve itself has a code stamped into the end of it. i modified it so i have a 50/50 pressure split and manually adjust it with my willwood in cabin valve

[4000GT]

Ah yup, sounds like the way to go, setting the bias is not going to be that easy without a brake dyno. How do you do it? Chalk on the tyres and a mate watching?

[s14seriesII]

adjust by feel.. seat of the pants i believe the saying is.. basicly i would suggest you to adjust until it has all bias at front,
then slowly adjust untill the rears will squerm and sqeal/lock first, then adjust back untill the front is just over braking the rear..
this is normal, you can adjust to suit your style, these adjustments should be done under extream hard braking (on the race track) and a panic stop situation should be caried out to ensure it will be safe on the street

[Sam-Q]

I guess I need to look into this BM50 master, I really want to get myself a bigger bore master. WHile we are on the topic does anyone recognise this?

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/44467.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/2/5/2/44468.jpg

It irritates me that this is the only part on my car where I don't know where it's from. It has a 15/16" bore.

So has anyone had any success in modding a master to have a bigger bore? because I am thinking about it.

[s14seriesII]

Late model hilux ? Why the bm50 over a bm44 ?

[Sam-Q]

doesn't the bm44 have a 15/16" bore?

[s14seriesII]

correct, hence why i dont see the need to use the bm50 with the 1" bore.. but its not my car...

[Sam-Q]

oh good reason, the diameter of the pistons in my front brake calipers is simply massive. They are from RA60/MA61 and the pedal went right down when I first installed them. Going to this 15/16" master helped a lot and it also saved a lot of vacuum use but it still didn't bring it back to where it used to be before being modified. I also have 1:1 brake bias in terms of fluid to my ae82 rear calipers.

[s14seriesII]

ok, what size m/c does the celica supra use factory ?

[Sam-Q]

funny (silly?) enough I never checked, I bought it with the struts but couldn't use it due to the 4 bolt Vs the 2 bolt. I have it around somewhere so I shoudl check. Regardless I would like less travel and a stiffer pedal.