Twin Charging

[biggo]

Well I'm not sure if theres been a definate thread on this in awhile, so I'm going to share with you my plan so you can poke holes in it :)

8.0CR GZE with SC12
Stock Intake mani
Currently makes ~7pound

Custom Himount exhaust mani
T25g
etc etc

Now the fun part,

I'm trying to get some all round oomph in my car, so the plan is to just run the turbo thru the SC.

Problem 1:
The Sc output and turbo output are on oppisite sides of the car. So I'm going to get me one of these Intercooler!! (http://justjap.com/store/product.php?productid=17393&cat=298&page=1)
Do a lil trickery with some magical metal bonder and add another output to the other side. Do i run the inlets closest to the sc output or turbo out put. You will not that there will be uber amouts of piping to be done so this is imperative.

Problem 2

Its an afm version GZE, at this stage i reckon ill whack the afm onto the turbo inlet.

Problem 3
I'm a cheap bastard. So unless i go straight turbo I'm going to try and keep what i can. No bigport pelum at this stage. Nor do i want to remove the SC as ill have to relocate the Alternator and do yet more trickery.

It idea of this setup is well, I'm cheap! I really only want about 12pound so i think (hoping) the SC12 will handle that. I do however realise there are so many ways to do a twin charge setup (J pipe the SC for one, conventional IC etc etc) Id like to hear so opinions.

Also there note there is nothing beyond biggos abilities. Where theres a will theres a hammer!

[cando1]

It is not do-able to have both.

Either increase you pulley on your SC or Turbo

Everybody wants the best of best worlds !
Been down the same path but , with sequential turbo's

[ke70dave]

i think its possible

ie this video--->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WLj-gv5sUY&feature=related

that thing sounds like a motorbike, revs like crazy, he starts it up at about 2mins in, ive got this feeling its not a stock 4agze though..

bit of inspiration :2thumbs:

I would get a aftemarket ecu to make sure it works properly.

there seem alot of different ideas floating around on the internet..

edit: just found this

http://www.rollaclub.com/board/lofiversion...php/t13186.html (http://www.rollaclub.com/board/lofiversion/index.php/t13186.html)

have a read, got some interesting points/pictures.

also mentions that blowing air from your turbo into your supercharger is very restrictive, really need to get some type of bypass/controll valve happening to shut out the supercharger at the high revs.

quote from that website

If you're not turning off the supercharger once the turbo is on boost, your wasting power, without a bypass valve the most your motor can make is governed by how well the super charger deals with being force fed. Also, if you know anything about Toyota roots superchargers you'd know they're Teflon coated. Hot air straight out of a turbo onto the blades would cook off the Teflon in no time.

[mr2gze]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (cando1 @ May 20 2008, 01:36 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=533894)</div>
It is not do-able to have both.

Either increase you pulley on your SC or Turbo

Everybody wants the best of best worlds !
Been down the same path but , with sequential turbo's[/b]

Are you joking?

Its very do-able to have both, and has been done time and time again! Do not propogate your opinion as fact. You are wrong.

You are on the right track Biggo. Turbo feeding the SC seems to be the most common way in my experience.

Yes definatley put the afm in front of the turbo inlet.

cheers

[slydar]

FAIL

[balistic]

I have seen this set-up, but it looked like a lot of frigging around to make it work. For the effort, time and money involved in making it work I think its more a novelty solution than an actual viable cheap solution to turbo lag.

I'd agree with KE70Dave - the SC's main purpose would be to reduce turbo lag at low revs but once the turbo gets onto full song you don't want the SC in the system creating a restriction so it would need to be bypassed somehow. It may be much easier to use a properly matched turbo and a well tuned aftermarket ECU to get the desired result?

But if you are just doing it for the novelty value then go for it!

[PuGZoR]

cando1, seriously, don't reply if you aren't sure. Just because you haven't seen one, doesn't mean it won't work. Twincharging is a very do-able thing, have seen it done on a variety of vehicles and engines. Hell, there was even a HKS kit made for the 4AGE!

If I remember correctly from write up's I've seen, there may be an issue with the supercharger still wanting to draw air even when the turbo is not spooling or something-or-other. Somehow a vacuum is formed, between the turbo and supercharger, or something equally terminal happens if you don't set it up right. May want to read a lot of theory articles on twincharging, as this will provide you with a lot of information that will be helpful. IMHO, you're going to find a hell of a lot more problems with system design than just trying to adapt it all to a 4AG/Z/E.

Problem 2 can be solved by fixing a problem you're going to have to face anyway. Your GZE computer is probably not going to like twincharging much, considering they usually start playing up with ~12psi through a T28 turbo only. You will more than likely be getting an aftermarket engine management system that goes on MAP, such as a Microtech (definatly more suitable EMS's out there, but I use a Microtech so I know how it works, don't know bout many other EMS's though), which would suit this kind of odd work pretty well I'd imagine.

Problem 3... well, if you've already got a running GZE, it should be just a case of some creative plumbing to add on the turbo. Remember, you're going to have to get a turbo, manifold, dump pipe, exhaust modified for it, and a whole heap of other things. Hope you've got a good driveline to handle this all too... I don't know if this is the kind of thing you'd want to get involved in if you're on a tight budget... turbo conversions are hard enough, lol, but twincharging adds a whole new set of things to bugger up.

Just my two cents. Take it all with a grain of salt, just my experiences so far looking at the concept. If you can pull it off though, jesus christ it'd be fun. Good luck. :)

[choom78]

look at the volkswagon TSI for inspiration.

Turbo and supercharger.

[slydar]

FAIL

1 good turbo will out perform a twin charge set up on a 4age.

less plumbing, way less weight, easy to get working at its optimum. if you get yourself say a hks 2510. itll boost from like 2k, to past 7 and make a good 160kw atw.

seriously, when do you need boost below 2000 rpm? plus up top it wont be restricted by all the extra plumbing youll need for twin charge, no matter how you do it.

i havent heard of the tsi.. are you sure? anyway i wouldn't take Volkswagens word for it being good. they also have v5 engines.. not cos theyre good, just to be different.

[pope]

^ don't dismiss the idea so quickly. A carefully selected turbo and supercharged that work better in their RPM ranges will be more efficient than a single turbo that covers a greater RPM range.

http://come.to/twincharger

[biggo]

Yes it may fail, but this car was a fail from the start :)

heres my thinking on straight turbo. Ditch the entir intake side of the gze, get bigport Intake, get some gadget to mount alternator on big step of crank pully, My alt will already fit that side.

Make dump - easy
Make front pipe - easy
Make turbo intake pipe - easy
make turbo oulet - easy
IC - well i need one anyway

The rest is just cool beans. BUT if some can show me a definate reason WHY it will fail, then go for it.
Dimitri - ill take you up on your offer to make it go straight turbo :P

[PuGZoR]

Dimitri does have a point. Unless you're going to use an epic turbo or epic supercharger, and you want one to assist the other, then there is pretty minimal you can gain from a twincharging setup. Eg, if you had a very large turbo, you could probably use a supercharger to get the engine up to the turbo's efficiency range quicker, but you'd probably want better than a stock bottom end to be doing that kinda stuff.

Can someone more knowledgable than I confirm something for me though on the subject? Just say you had a large turbo, and a fairly sizable supercharger. Would the supercharger actually assist the turbo by putting more pressure on the compressor than what it's getting from the exhaust turbine, effectively making the turbo suck the exhaust from the engine rather than feeding off it? Obviously until it gets to a point where the turbo gets it's efficiency and starts blowing more than it's sucking... But yeah, would that work, or am I a dumbass? :D

[Konakid]

It wont fail, its just a lot of hassle when a turbo will do the same job, no doubt better and more efficiently with proven results.

[ke70dave]

i stole this from that rollaclub thread i posted above:

i think it sums up everything pretty well.

************************QUOTE********************* **

Sounds like your keen to get it going but remember this, only 3 cars from factory have ever been twincharged

1: Lancia Delta S4 (the group B rally monster, this had super/turbo changeover issues, but was better at low revs than the compitition)
2: Nissan's "SurperTurbo" notreally a performance car, done for efficiency?
3: VW Golf TSi much the same as the nissan setup, doesn't make much power, done for efficiency?

This means that while it is technically possible, it's not really worth the effort. One way/butterfly valves opperated by diafram vacuum lines are problematic and annoying to set up, especially at change overpoints.
THere's no change over just more boost rocks up.

Ask yourself this though why am I doing this?
1: Academic exercise, proof of concept, because I can
2: Hills thrasher, traffic light hero, fast street car
3: Circuit
4: drags
5: Rally monster

Of all these possible questions only option 1: is a valid reason, and here's why.

2: for street car, the instant respone of a super charger is all you'll ever need in a light weight car, the speed limit is 60km/h and 110km/h. In the hills out of the corner response is important, but topend speed isn't. It's more about breaks and handeling. so for this the supercharger or modest turbo alone are fine

3: Here is where big power matters and shows up when you don't have it. A large (300RWkW on a 4AGE) turbo works on the track as you can keep the engine on the boil (+4500RPM) so you're never dropping down into the region where the SC would be on. thus the point of a twincharger is lost.

4: Club level drag racing is all abot being consistant, not the best time. Simplisity rules the drag strip, in a dial your own drag race you will never beat a stock late model auto camery, as it'll always run the same time. For most sconsistant results a striaght SC setup works best, as it's less likey to bog down off the line.

5: you don't have enough money, and with anti-lag on turbos, twincahrging isn't worth the effort.

************************QUOTE********************* **

go for option 1 "Academic exercise, proof of concept, because I can"

do_eet :2thumbs:

[cando1]

cando1, seriously, don't reply if you aren't sure. Just because you haven't seen one, doesn't mean it won't work. Twincharging is a very do-able thing, have seen it done on a variety of vehicles and engines. Hell, there was even a HKS kit made for the 4AGE!

If I remember correctly from write up's I've seen, there may be an issue with the supercharger still wanting to draw air even when the turbo is not spooling or something-or-other. Somehow a vacuum is formed, between the turbo and supercharger, or something equally terminal happens if you don't set it up right. May want to read a lot of theory articles on twincharging, as this will provide you with a lot of information that will be helpful. IMHO, you're going to find a hell of a lot more problems with system design than just trying to adapt it all to a 4AG/Z/E.

Sorry pugzor ,

I have worked @ Garrett turbo's for 5 years and seen my fair share of SC and Turbo set up's and more than enough experience with race trucks....


at the end of the day what do you want to do?
Drift?
Drag's?
circuit racing?

Quick and easy just turbo

[biggo]

bah! quick and easy? thats like the long way around for me.

There are however some valid points arrising. Ill await ken's word on this tho.

[choom78]

http://www.engineforall.com/archivio/2007/06/13-new-volkswagen-tsi-122-cv-engine/large-volkswagen-tsi-122cv-2007-04.jpg

Have a read more about the tsi here:
http://www.engineforall.com/en-index.php/2...-122-cv-engine/ (http://www.engineforall.com/en-index.php/2007/06/13/new-volkswagen-tsi-122-cv-engine/)

Its definitely not the simplest approach but certainly possible. If you want it bad enough, go for it. Hobby's are there for enjoyment.

Now go find written-off tsi's :)

[PuGZoR]

Apologies Cando1, I think we've both interpreted biggo's post in different ways. Can the setup physically be done? Yes, of course it can, you know that, I know that, that's what I was answering. Is it actually practical and worth it? Not really, it's good for wank factor and something different, but depending on application, there are different methods that are easier/cheaper/better for achieving the result, and I believe this is what you were answering... No hard feelings mate, we just both saw the question/s posed in different lights I guess.

Do it biggo, just for something different. I think you'll end up learning a bit about both turbo and supercharger systems through it, and knowledge is power, so might serve you well down the track on other cars. :)

[cando1]

no worry's Pugzor, my thoughs the same. :)

cheers,

[biggo]

From the novelty side, id have to agree with you guys. But if thats all its going to present to me i think ill pass. I want something mildly performance oriented, my scales say that its a load of beer hops, be we shall see.

How bout some ideas now on making it work hmm? Ive found a broken bigport intake, so i may as well take it and fix it.

hows this sound:

Bigport mani
J pipe SC
turbo thru ic
then merge them on a common intake pipe just befor the TB?

[biggo]

I think i solved my own problem!!!!

Hooray for yeast hops sugar and water!!

[verm69]

you'll have to put the TB after the SC... but yes...

and you'll just have to figure out how to turn the SC off when you start making boost from the turbo... like at 3 or 3.5k rpm...

[Gilly]

you can get pressure switches that you could fit to the intake somewhere. that way once a preset boost level is met (whatever boost level you are generating when the turbo spools in) you can switch the clutch "off" on the charger

that clears that hurdle

the others are still quite tall though

hard for a normal person to clear

Biggo is hardly normal though...

[biggo]

Biggo usually reaches for the stars

why am i talking 3rd person? Biggo wants to know where/what to get boost pressure switches? I reckon over 8 pound ill cut the power to the SC switch and I'm on a winner?

Id rather said funky contraption over twin TB's

[slydar]

wow more [b](sorry I'm addicted now

I'm not saying the engine wont run. i am saying, its pointless, and will not outperform an engine with one good turbo on it.

more than likely, it will run really poorly.

usually you wanna keep your intake tract as short as possible on a a forced induction engine. don't see how this is achievable with this set up.

also heaps of chances for boost leak.

its not the biggest engine bay, starts to look small even with a normal SC set up.. imagine both in there, plus all the tight bends the induction pipes would need.

then the switch of the sc, TB diversion ect... there is a fundamental floor there. its a switch. internal combustion engines effeciency is affect by alot of variables, simple rpm/boost threshold switch for these tasks wont work too good. you would need some type of intelligent control (a computer) and I'm only guessing, but id say youre not willing to go that far with it.

its fun to talk about the concept.. but realistically, it will take a long time to set up and it isnt going to work very well.

if you really want some Frankenstein monster... run turbo with Nitrous. now that would be good.

you could run one normal dunga turbo and a 50 shot up top for that "my car is as cool as mad max's" effect.

[cando1]

" if you really want some Frankenstein monster... run turbo with Nitrous. now that would be good.

you could run one normal dunga turbo and a 50 shot up top for that "my car is as cool as mad max's" effect. "

Now that's the shit!!!!!

[biggo]

biggo now has a turbo

biggo is now going be be sensible

biggo now wants turbo with nitrous

[verm69]

dooooo eeeeeeeeeeeeetttt


Biggo the dwipter!

[JoshKE]

I have aspirations to build a twin charged 20V in the LONG term future, but fair enough it will be larger for academic reasons/ coolness factor of near constant boost... It will most likely involve a LARGE turbo and a small roots type charger..

Example of coolness factor (I know this pic is as old as the internet, but I still like it):
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/170436.jpg