under car surge tank

[EVOSTi]

yes ive searched through numerous threads and havent come across one yet. short of going through everyones ride threads i hoped someone might post a pic of their tank.

reason being i have a surge tank and pump in the hatch but I'm getting sick of the smell so want something under the car. having looked around i can't see much space to mount anything probably over 1L in the rear.

no i wont mount it in the bay, no i wont baffle the tank just want some ideas of where people have mounted one under the car. if its custom made thats cool I'm prepared to do that.

cheers.

[steroidchickens]

i assume its for an ae86.
i made a template out of steel then got a mate to make it out of stainless.

it tucks up infront of my fuel tank on the drivers side. then i welded a bracket for my bosch pump to bolt to the fuel tank strap.

if you get stuck pm me. i can get it up in the air and take a pic. i still have the template.

it works well there as i tend to come off the track a bit and it is well protected. away from the exhaust also.

[Brenton 86]

pics pics!

[rthy]

you shouldnt need anything over even 500CC let alone a litre. Think of it this way if you max out 370cc injectors (4agze) which gives you about 220kw from what I hear then even stuck fully open you could still have no fuel feeding in and be fine for a whole minute with a 1.5L tank. So unless you like racing up a corkscrew shaped upramp at a multilevel carpark thats 30 storeys high then you will be fine.

This is a tank I started for under my sprinter, I never finished it and I don't think I ever will because I chose having a modified tank instead. Also don't beleive people when they tell you that theres no room for things under a sprinter, theres shitloads if you know what your doing, I am confident I could fit a surge tank and atleast 3 external fuel pumps under there no problem.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/148304.jpg

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/148305.jpg


feel free to ask any questions

[rthy]

oh and I thought I better add thats a peice of normal 2.5 inch exhuast pipe and around 250mm long, this works out to a theroetical max volume of 750cc which as an educated guess would feed a stock 20v for a corner 45 seconds long.

Another thing this pipe is held in place with a metal teb welded on the side that bolts to something stock, it was a fuel tank mount or something- long time ago you see

[steroidchickens]

ok, pics.

i pretty much did the same design as samQ. just different mounting.

i would have liked to have gone bigger, but no room and i wanted to steer clear of the exhaust.

no surge over a quarter of a tank of fuel. mind you i go through almost 2 tanks of fuel at a drift day.

template, as you can see it bolts through the floor. i think this is a better idea, as you can see if the bolts come loose.
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/170322.jpg


pretty poor pic but you get the picture. i
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/170323.jpg

[steroidchickens]

here is another one of how the pump is mounted.

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/170324.jpg

[rthy]

do you get surge under a quarter of a tank?

BTW nice tig welding

[EVOSTi]

thanks for the replies guys.

they look like the sort of thing i might have to do. id definately be able to make one out of mild steel but might have to get someone else to do it in alloy or stainless. would prefer to keep the HP pump level or lower than the bottom of the surge to maintain head pressure but that might not be possible.

[steroidchickens]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ May 20 2008, 06:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534023)</div>
do you get surge under a quarter of a tank?

BTW nice tig welding[/b]


yes but thats because of the way i put my intank pump inside my fuel tank. when i get time i will drop the tank and make another pickup.

that aint my tig welding. you can see my welding on the template haha.

[steroidchickens]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EVOSTi @ May 20 2008, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534037)</div>
would prefer to keep the HP pump level or lower than the bottom of the surge to maintain head pressure but that might not be possible.[/b]


i wanted to do the same. it was not possible.

either the pump would have been to low, or the surge tank would have been to short.

should not really matter once it is flowing the HP pump sucks the fuel through anyway.

[stefan]

ive always wondered would there be any issues roadworthy wise running external surge tank and pump(s). commodores run an external pump so I'm guessing its somewhat legalish?

[rthy]

evo: if the surge tank is setup right it wont matter where it is.

yosh: no legality issues further than having a non standard engine in your car. Other than that its down to just having the right clamps and everything secure enough.

here use the efi clamp on the right, the right one is not permitted:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/170336.jpg

[EVOSTi]

if anyone is intersted this is what I'm doing:

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/4609/img6922800x600yk7.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img6922800x600yk7.jpg)

http://img91.imageshack.us/img91/9025/img6923800x600hz0.jpg (http://img91.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img6923800x600hz0.jpg)

its a bit small, under 1L but it will fit perfectly in the spot as pictured above by steroid chickens and sam. i measured up what would fit and had it made.

[rthy]

I can honestly say that is the most professional looking home made surge tank I have ever seen, awesome effort!

BTW 1L is heaps

[EVOSTi]

nah you missed that last bit, i had it made. i wish i had a tig so i could learn alloy but i only have a mig at work.

the guys name is shaun, he does the best alloy welding ive seen. he knocked it up for me last night and the welding is flawless, every single bead is the same size and perfectly straight.
the outside diameter is 15x20x5 cm's which i think is approx 1.6L, but if you take away the metal thickness, and the height of the overflow tube it would be closer to half a litre imo.

[Vezza]

Just a bit off topic here, but for those who are considering cutting the tank and welding baffles in, would there be any dramas putting the surge tank inside the main tank? Would make for a nice clean, legal looking installation.

[rthy]

yep missed that bit, your right about it looking flawless, i can't spot a single defect on any weld.

vezza: thats what I did, I chopped it open with a grinder, after cleaning it of course!

I would like to do it again but make an even better design

[EVOSTi]

that would be the neatest way. but from what i undestand alot of fuel tanks are coated inside to prevent rust, so once you start cutting and welding inside you lose this rust protection where you have modded the tank.

[Poobrown86]

so its not just my shittie car, having a surge tank in cab creates fuel smell eh. time for a tank relocation project aswell i think!

[gaz20v]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EVOSTi @ May 29 2008, 10:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=538627)</div>
the outside diameter is 15x20x5 cm's which i think is approx 1.6L, but if you take away the metal thickness, and the height of the overflow tube it would be closer to half a litre imo.[/b]

just wondering what thickness the metal is, also is it aluminium or stainless?? (excuse my ignorance when it comes to spotting metal!!)

[EVOSTi]

its alloy, with a wall thickness of 1/8" or around 3mm.

[rthy]

there was no coating on the inside of my tank when I chopped it open.

[EVOSTi]

probably a more modern thing i spose.

just spoke to my efi guy, he reckons i shouldnt use the tank cause its way too small.

anyone want a cheap surge tank? :P :(

[meadan]

just a random question. Where does everyone get those aluminim barbed fittings from?
I can only seem to find the threaded brass ones. Better yet, are there stainless ones around?

[rthy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EVOSTi @ May 30 2008, 03:12 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=538840)</div>
probably a more modern thing i spose.

just spoke to my efi guy, he reckons i shouldnt use the tank cause its way too small.

anyone want a cheap surge tank? :P :([/b]


I think thats total bullshit because of the calculations I stated earlier, also if you open up the factory bowl in an efi car you will realise they are small as

I have a friend who might want it, PM me if you do want to sell it

[EVOSTi]

factory efi cars have an internal swirl pot which is a different thing. fuel isnt pumped into them, rather they 'trap' fuel thats already in the tank.

i think ill still chuck it in my car tomorrow if i have time cause i really want to sort out the issues I'm having.

regarding your calc's above:
I'm running 440's, and at 210rwkw they are pushing the 95% limit (this could be the tune but thats another story). I'm currently using a bosch VL pump which is rated to 290KW at 40psi and flows 2.3L/min. with the injectors at 100% duty cylcle they will use 1.76L/min combined. so with a surge tank of say 800ml it will be emptied in 30 seconds, assuming the worst.
the main thing about the size that concerns me is the possibilty of starving the main pump under cornering. maybe i should have had the side with the fittings longer than the opposite side, so that the base run on an angle down to the lower fitting. i thought of this after i dropped off the plans, its probably ok but i would have felt more comfortable with that design.

[rthy]

as for the internal pot and an external tank yes they do different jobs but my point was both only ever use a small portion of fuel. An internal pot is always small yet you don't hear of any later car with starvation problems with them.

if your calcs are right and I don't see why not then 30 seconds is longer than any corner you will find, however I just had the thought if your going though a windy road without any straights then its possible for the fuel to always be on either side and therefore empty the tank out...

[EVOSTi]

in theory right handers will push the fuel to the fuel pump outlet on the surge tank.

i just got my lazy arse to work now so ill chuck it in soon and see how i go.

[gaz20v]

would there be merit in having 2 outlets at the bottom, one on either side, run the second fuel line to the pump using a y piece to join just before the pump?? that way the fuel will be forced into one of the 2 lines on both left and right corners?? maybe this is a bit too much of a workaround??

[Gilly]

^^ that works in my mind, clever too.

[RobertoX]

So if one outlet is starved of fuel it will take fuel from the other one? It will still take in air though from the starved outlet.... not good

[DRFTPG]

just found this...
obviously wouldn't bolt straight into an ae86 but its a great idea
http://www.wrxparts.com.au/WRXsurge/WRXsurge1.JPG
http://www.wrxparts.com.au/WRXsurge/WRXsurge5.JPG

[Dongaz]

How do you figure out how large you need the surge tank to be? What are the calculations?

[EVOSTi]

if you look at my previous calc's it gives you a rough idea, but I'm not sure of an exact equation.

work out the flow per min of the fuel pump, then the consumption of the combined injectors and that will tell you how quickly you can empty the surge tank assuming the injectors are at 100% (which they never really would be). i have a safety net in the fact my lift pump (carter gold) flows a greater volume than the bosch high pressure pump so theoretically i can't have starvation.

i put the surge tank in saturday, although i havent finished seting it up (the tank is mounted but the fuel pump is just cable tied at the moment) and it has fixed my problem.

also there is a long left hand sweeper to get on the m5 near my work which i took at full throttle in high gear to up the consumption, and there was no surge even with the petrol theoretically moving away from the feed.

[rthy]

thats awesome, would it be possible to a take a picture of the install?

[EVOSTi]

i definately will, might take a few days tho cause my laptop is getting fixed.

in hindsight it would have been good to have a bracket put on the underside of the surge for the fuel pump as it would be perfect, but as it is i might have to make a braket that goes between the tank straps to keep it away from the exhaust.

[Roo]

i just finished my undercar surge tank.

was alot easier then i thought .

i used a fat but short 1L surge tank, fitted nicely in the corner and its tucked away

havent got my relays yet so i havent wired it up but i tested them and all systems are go, also havent mounted the fuel pump yet just chilling there

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/172071.jpg
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/172072.jpg

[rthy]

looks really neat

[rthy]

guys I thought you might find it interesting that I found out today that VL pumps are not meant to be used for suction and should either have a primer pump or should be mounted lower than the tank level.

[DR86FT]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Jun 22 2008, 10:12 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=550184)</div>
guys I thought you might find it interesting that I found out today that VL pumps are not meant to be used for suction and should either have a primer pump or should be mounted lower than the tank level.[/b]


hmmm lol might have to get a primer pump or mount it lower..... thanks for that Sam

[Dongaz]

What size fuel line are you guys using?

[EVOSTi]

i should get off my arse and get a pic of mine installed.

sam, i was already aware of this re VL pumps, thats why i insisted earlier in the thread that i want the pump lower than the tank to maintain some head pressure. having said that in my thrasher AE71 i used it on its own with no lift pump but i didnt really care what happened to it.

dongaz, i use the standard fuel lines in the car, with 5/16th fittings on the surge tank.

[rthy]

oops so thats why you said that, I finally get it now

hey that must mean even the non turbo vl must have a lift pump too, i wonder how it would go running externally.

thanks

[EVOSTi]

all VL's have a lift pump.
also turbo and non turbo VL's have the exact same pump. ive always found it funny people always specify 'turbo', i guess it sounds more impressive.

heres a couple of dodgy pics of mine installed i just took:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/172142.jpg (http://img261.imageshack.us/my.php?image=surge001mediumfx0.jpg)
http://img58.imageshack.us/img58/7010/surge004mediumst5.jpg (http://img58.imageshack.us/my.php?image=surge004mediumst5.jpg)
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/7365/surge005mediummz1.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=surge005mediummz1.jpg)

[rthy]

close but not quite, I admit this is really trivial but the two pumps arnt the same. You have a VL pump there as it has spade lugs for it, the turbo version had studs for the electrical connection. Your right about one thing though, someone going out of the way to say they have a VL turbo pump is either unaware of the lack of differences or they are just saying it for the wank factor.

Anyway that trivial crap asside I really like how your setup has ended up looking, its neat and very functional

[EVOSTi]

the pumps i have seen on VL turbos have been the spade fitting type, and parts listings i have seen have been identical for both cars, as well as the fuel pump flow guide i have in a book lists them as the samew output. having said this i have seen the ring terminal types and they are identical, so maybe the VL turbos i have seen have just had them replaced as they are the same? but meh like you say its not an issue and I'm not trying to make one :)

with my setup in hindsight i really should have had a bracket for the pump welded to the surge as it would have been easier and neater than making my own bodgy one :P

[rthy]

yes I know what your talking about, I wish I just modified a VL holder for my pump and I might still do that. I do have one thing I very much don't like about your setup, its those blue lugs, if your car suddenly stops one day then check to see if they failed. I don't care what anyone says insulated lugs have no place in the automotive industry if you ask me.

[EVOSTi]

what would you use instead?

ive never had a problem in the years ive used them. if you look where wires are connected from the factory in wiring looms they are always crimped and never soldered, different connections obviously tho.

what do you use? I'm always open to better ideas.

[rthy]

the factory style lugs, as in uninsulted with lugs that curl into the wires in a maccas M shape. The a peice of heatshrink on top. You need a $30 crimper though

[Roo]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (EVOSTi @ Jun 23 2008, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=551252)</div>
what would you use instead?

ive never had a problem in the years ive used them. if you look where wires are connected from the factory in wiring looms they are always crimped and never soldered, different connections obviously tho.

what do you use? I'm always open to better ideas.[/b]
i used the factory plug cover thingo, its a black rubber cap that covers the connector

as you can see
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/172270.jpg

[Vezza]

Hey Sam,
Since you cut your fuel tank open, couldn't you simply have built a surge tank internally? Just weld in a small tank which gets filled with fuel from an internal fuel pump, then have your main fuel pump drawing from that tank? Or am I missing a piece to the puzzle here?

[rthy]

hmm thats quite an intersting idea, I never thought of it, idealy I would have two pre pumps sucking from each side of the tank feeding the middle tank which my normal feed goes into. I will consider that for my next tank I modify

[Vezza]

Would basically be like a huge fuel pot, which is manually fed with a pump, rather than available fuel filling it up. Because it's inside the tank you could have the surge tank as large as you need, minus any nasty fumes and have a perfectly legal (looking) setup... not to mention cheap.

But I guess the point of an external surge tank is simplicity, no cutting/welding... unless you're making your own, which would beg the question of why not go internal?

[rthy]

yeah the mouning of the internal low pressure pumps is tricky and they become tottaly unservicable, maybe if I put some extra lines in that are pickups on either end of the tank, have the two low pressure pumps on the outside and then return them through a new single large line in the middle of the normal filling point?


next time round I am going to do a different internal fuel pot design that should be heaps more effective.

[steroidchickens]

no body take note of the pics of my fuel setup, it is shit. i have changed it since.

the fuel pump now sits inline with the outlet of the surge tank.

turns out as i was going around left corners fuel in the surge tank was going to the right hand side of the surge tank and running the bosch pump dry. in combination with a faulty pre pump = no fuel (n)

i have now mounted the bosch pump lower so i get full use of all the fuel in my surge tank not just half.

don't listen to peoples advice, even if you think they know what they are talking about. as i have learned they refuse to take the blame anyway. :rolleyes:

i will get pics up soon.

[Vezza]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Jun 24 2008, 07:03 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=551417)</div>
yeah the mouning of the internal low pressure pumps is tricky and they become tottaly unservicable, maybe if I put some extra lines in that are pickups on either end of the tank, have the two low pressure pumps on the outside and then return them through a new single large line in the middle of the normal filling point?


next time round I am going to do a different internal fuel pot design that should be heaps more effective.[/b]

If you built the internal surge tank large enough there shouldn't be any need to run two pumps should there? A 4Lt surge tank would be more than enough.
As for serviceability, you could simply have the low pressure pump mounted onto the same cradle as the high pressure pump (provided it fits), and run long fuel lines from the low pressure pump to the surge tank. This will allow you to pull out the whole cradle with pumps and fuel lines out of the tank.

Having said all this, I still haven't seen the size of the cradle hole in these tanks and whether it will allow two fuel pumps and lines to fit through. :turned:

[rthy]

a pump still needs to fill the internal tank up. I would need to somehow have the low prssure pump mounted to the bottom of a rod that comes off my lid at a dog-leg, hard going

[Killswitch]

Ok, I'm currently in the process of sorting my fuel system and wish to go undercar surge tank like this thread is all about!

Couple of clarifications though if possible:

How important is mounting the high pressure pump (VL in my case) below the surge tank outlet? If you were to bleed/run the pump lower than the outlet initially and then mount it higher would it be fine if there were no fuel leaks?

If so then I suppose a cylindrical surge tank would be the best solution.

If not, would a setup like EVOSTi had made but with an outlet on either side or alternatively a longer side on the outlet side (both as mentioned) do the job for an N/A 4AGE? Just wondering what lateral forces would do with such a wide surge tank. The more I think about it the better the dual outlet rectangular tank seems, although would this suck air if one was uncovered and one was immersed?

Any clarifications would be ace. Thanks.

[loc33e]

quick questions. where can i get the box type surge tank from? I WANT ONE, LOOKS RAD:)

[70XIN]

any fabricator/ally place should be able to make them :) i don't think anyone specific sells them though

[orange32]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Killswitch @ Sep 2 2008, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583095)</div>
How important is mounting the high pressure pump (VL in my case) below the surge tank outlet? If you were to bleed/run the pump lower than the outlet initially and then mount it higher would it be fine if there were no fuel leaks?[/b]


I don't think bleeding has any effect as the pump will just pump the air out when it primes. I'm not sure if its been mentioned in this thread yet (been a while since i read it), the high pressure pump should be lower or at the same height as the surge tank outlet, as the pump is designed to push fuel, not pull it up from the surge tank if that makes sense.

Feel free to correct me.

[loc33e]

anyone in syd know any fabricators where i can get one made or have one already made?

[rthy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Killswitch @ Sep 2 2008, 10:43 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=583095)</div>
How important is mounting the high pressure pump (VL in my case) below the surge tank outlet? If you were to bleed/run the pump lower than the outlet initially and then mount it higher would it be fine if there were no fuel leaks?[/b]

the higher the pump from the bottom of the outlet of the surge tank to the inlet of the pump then the more stress it puts the pump under. So it will be louder and have a shorter life.

[EVOSTi]

VL style bosch pumps are designed to run with SOME pressure on them. in factory applications they run a pre pump (say 4-6psi). you really SHOULD run it lower than the surge tank. having said this i ran a second hand VL pump on my ge rolla as the only pump and it had to suck from the tank. ran fine.

dont run a surge tank like mine with an outlet on either side. it defeats the purpose. i think myself or someone else covered this eariler in the thread.

the surge tank im using is my own design, i had it made up by fabricator who specialises in alloy. in hindsight i could have made it a bit bigger as the volume isnt great but ive had no issues.
just go through the phone book or try someone like road runner fabrications. hes a good guy but is always pretty busy.

[muncher]

On another note, any tips for making a facet lift pump shut the hell up haha.. mounted it on wood and rubber and it's still loud as anything!

Anyone else had this with a facet lift pump? It cool at the start, annoying after a while!

[EVOSTi]

unless its cavitating theres not alot you can do other than rubber mount it.

[muncher]

i was thinking maybe enclose it in something.. could work, mount it under the car?? anyone have n e tips apart from rubber mounting ?

[EVOSTi]

so its in the car?

yeah mount it outside.

[muncher]

yeah in the boot along with the VL and the surge..

what lift pump are you running?