sway bars

[irl86]

hi I'm thinking of upgrading my sway bars in my ae86 just looking for some info.. (setting up for drifting)

1.should i do both front and rear?

2.are there any disadvantages of upgrading?

3.what thickness front and rear?

4.advantages of adjustable and non-adjustable?


any help/advice would be great .

cheers shaun

[rthy]

theres a lot of dicussion whether or not its a good idea to "upgrade" these. However the white-line anti roll bars are very adjustable and pretty affordable.

I personally don't think making the rear stiffer is a good idea butt thats just me.

Adjustable is the only way to go to fine tune your car to get the balance to where you want it to be. I personally prefer my car to have what I think is neutral handling.

If you go too thick then the anti roll bars try and do too much of the job of the springs and they cause too much disturbances from one side of the car to the other.

[irl86]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ May 20 2008, 09:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534214)</div>
theres a lot of dicussion whether or not its a good idea to "upgrade" these. However the white-line anti roll bars are very adjustable and pretty affordable.

I personally don't think making the rear stiffer is a good idea butt thats just me.

Adjustable is the only way to go to fine tune your car to get the balance to where you want it to be. I personally prefer my car to have what I think is neutral handling.

If you go too thick then the anti roll bars try and do too much of the job of the springs and they cause too much disturbances from one side of the car to the other.[/b]


thanks sam as i am setting the car up for drifting would stiffer rear b a better option?

[DavisJD]

What are you going to be using the car for?


**********EDIT ^^^ beat me to it.


Dori people tend to think its a great idea to upgrade the swaybars. I have no personal experience here though so that the end of my input! Sorry dude, goodluck.

[riceburner]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (irl86 @ May 20 2008, 09:55 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534223)</div>
thanks sam as i am setting the car up for drifting would stiffer rear b a better option?[/b]

softer would = grip

but its total car balance not just stiffness of swaybars. swaybars keep the car flatter during corner.

But also since there isnt a science to adhear to most people just do alittle research as to what and how components work then change/alter as they see fit.

I use whiteline non adjustable 27mm front swaybars and 19mm rears adjustable set at 3rd stiffest (is that a word :unsure: ) I also use Apexi 7kg front spring with agx shocks (coilover) set on 3, rear coonodore non adjustable AJPS shock and 6kg springs. Oh i have RCA's and cambertops too.

I dig it. i find its well balance, how it drifts, well i can't tell you too be honest, 1st time out i had terrible wheel alignment (2deg toe in :teehee: ) + traction bracket, made terrible understeer.

But when i did get a handle on it (I'm a very novice driver), it felt nice. controllable and direct. I will try settings for alot less squat next time.

[rthy]

sorry I don't know enough as drifiting isnt my thing.

However they say to have a good drift car you use a track cars setup but with an increased spring rate. That means neutral handling and in my personal opinion having a larger rear anti roll bar is counteractive to that. But.. this is what is considered an ideal setup for pro's, for the average person without a high power to weight ratio then it may help, like I said though I don't know.

[irl86]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FKN16v @ May 20 2008, 10:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534233)</div>
softer would = grip

but its total car balance not just stiffness of swaybars. swaybars keep the car flatter during corner.

But also since there isnt a science to adhear to most people just do alittle research as to what and how components work then change/alter as they see fit.

I use whiteline non adjustable 27mm front swaybars and 19mm rears adjustable set at 3rd stiffest (is that a word :unsure: ) I also use Apexi 7kg front spring with agx shocks (coilover) set on 3, rear coonodore non adjustable AJPS shock and 6kg springs. Oh i have RCA's and cambertops too.

I dig it. i find its well balance, how it drifts, well i can't tell you too be honest, 1st time out i had terrible wheel alignment (2deg toe in :teehee: ) + traction bracket, made terrible understeer.

But when i did get a handle on it (I'm a very novice driver), it felt nice. controllable and direct. I will try settings for alot less squat next time.[/b]

thanks mate I'm on abit of a learning curve myself hav racing logic coilovers in mine cheap but do the trick well i think they do... only been on the track twice first was a nightmare as had no rca,s in an my arms were nearly broke lol...
just lookin to try new things to c what helps..

[rthy]

FKN16V has a damn good point, you will find everyone has their own setup they like. Most people will read what I said before and be horrified. You can upgrade your suspension in bits and peices, this gives the advantage of seeing how everything changes how your car reacts and from there make more eductated choices as to what to change next. First things first heres the order I sujest: bushes, springs, front camber, roll bars, rear camber (track use) with extra bracing thrown in there anywhere.

[RobertoX]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (irl86 @ May 20 2008, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534205)</div>
hi I'm thinking of upgrading my sway bars in my ae86 just looking for some info.. (setting up for drifting)

1.should i do both front and rear?

2.are there any disadvantages of upgrading?

3.what thickness front and rear?

4.advantages of adjustable and non-adjustable?


any help/advice would be great .

cheers shaun[/b]

1. do a rear first, as you get faster do a front

2. they cost money :P

3. whiteline - f24, r18, cusco f23 r20, largus f25 r19 trd f24 r16 (hollow)

4. fine tuning of handling characteristics, although most off the shelf kits arent any better than their solid brothers.

Ill be using cusco soild non adjustable bars in my car, used extensively in D1 etc well proven and the sizes should complement my other settings being the thickest on the rear

pm me if you would like pricing

also - whiteline adjustable fronts slightly foul the strut

[rthy]

I am using an adjustable whiteline on the front of mine and I havent found it fouls, I can take another look soon to double check. Could it be because some people are using longer than xt130 lower control arms or something? perhaps thinner RCA's?

[RobertoX]

car has xt130 and 35mm ajps rca

might take pics if he ever paints it :P

[dustyae86]

just get two adjustable whitelines, I think there is only one or two sizes available for sprinters, put them in and drive it and then fine tune it to there to make you happy

[Konakid]

arghhhh!!!

Just because a swaybar has a stiffer rate does not mean it will give you less grip!!!! Going from a standard 14mm rear up to a whiteline 18mm increases front end grip by dialing out the understeer that is built into 99% of cars from the factory. See it as turning the car from an understeering chassis into one that is more neutrally balanced

Increasing the thickness at one end often has the most effect at the other end with swaybars. See it as; if it understeers, you need more rear bar, if it oversteers you need more front bar.


From my experience, having just an 18mm rear bar is a big difference over standard, it grips much harder, holding the rear much flatter and improving front end grip markedly. When you want it to slide however it breaks away much more predictably, though more force is needed to initiate a slide and more speed can be carried while sideways. This said, in the wet where it isnt that grippy, having too much roll stiffness will make the car slide more easily, both from the front and rear.

post more later bout front bar effects

[rthy]

I tottaly disagree, your theory is fine if your talking about an even surface. Hows how I see it: if the vehicle never leaves the track then its fine. However on the rough roads (everything in my area) if one wheel gets disturbed by something then the thicker the anti-roll bar then the more likely it will disturb the other one and cause them both to lose traction.

[ae71]

there are several track (grip) sprinters using stock swayabrs, they say that you should use the spring rates to counter the body rolling.

beau yates uses standard swaybars modified to be adjustable.

generally from my experience the stiffer you go (springs or swaybars) the more of a tendancy it has to oversteer. this is reflected simply buy when the popular rates for street grip and sliders use. i.e for grip 6.5/4 and 8/6. for a grip setup you want some body movement (roll and pitch) for the tyres to work properly, if it can't transfer enough weight to the outside wheel then it will want to slide the rear. the exception is with very high grip tyres i.e semi slicks. the car wont over steer with a stiff setup with this sort of grip, not unless you have huge amounts of power.

having said that differences in the spring rates will make the car under/over. generally the closer the front and rear rates the more the car will understeer. i currently have 10/4.5kg (temporary) with about 1-1.5degrees of camber stock sway bars, no power and with 175's on the back i can brake drift uphill!! thats with a fair bit of speed.

so yeah i would grab some white line sway bars for the front and back, for the small difference in price i would get adjustable ones.

i intend on getting slightly larger swaybar for the back and a adjustable one for the front. my setup is focused on street grip driving.

so it also depends on what sort of power you have/will have and your driving style and preference. if its too stiff and oversteers too much you will be forever chancing the tail and it wont have good control and will be prone to spinning. this is where the adjustability come in handy.

i have driven a sprinter with 8/6kg, kyb shocks and a whiteline rear swayabr and it was so tail happy with a open diff and 4ac and it would slide roundabouts with light throttle no scando or braking, just turn in and counter, was very controllable though.

[LAZY]

there are two types of sway bars, hollow and solid bars.

Whitelines are solid, hollows usually have a 2mm wall thickness and are sold in higher diameters than hollow sway bars.

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins...d%20Swaybar.pdf (http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/Hollow%20vs%20Solid%20Swaybar.pdf)
http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/NASIO...ymetric_adj.pdf (http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles/NASIOC_post_assymetric_adj.pdf)

[rthy]

the closer the front and rear rates the more the car will oversteer I think. This is because the softer the rear then the more it will grip and cause the fornt to lose contact instead, so more understeer

[RobertoX]

re hollow bars - remember they twist

[ae71]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ May 21 2008, 04:04 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534572)</div>
the closer the front and rear rates the more the car will oversteer I think. This is because the softer the rear then the more it will grip and cause the fornt to lose contact instead, so more understeer[/b]

i thought it was the opposite???

[LAZY]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (truenosedan @ May 21 2008, 04:29 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534582)</div>
re hollow bars - remember they twist[/b]


no they don't lol.

[ae71]

okay my mistake

i read threw this site long ago and remembered it differently

http://www.my-acoustic.com/Car/handling_se...oose_spring.htm (http://www.my-acoustic.com/Car/handling_secrets/spring_rate/how_choose_spring.htm)

i know that my car does big skid with these rates but they are only temporary until i get a new front end sorted out.

[LAZY]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (ae71 @ May 21 2008, 04:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534585)</div>
i thought it was the opposite???[/b]


It depends on a lot of things, front rear weight, tire load, tire pressure, spring rate, shock rate, chassis stiffness etc.

also the type the more important aspect, the road condition, its scary at mount oxley :whistling:

[af300e]

"As most factory vehicles are biased towards understeer, fitting of the larger rear swaybar will help in providing a more neutral characteristic in the handling at the limit"

^^From the whiteline website.

It's well known that rear bar affects oversteer, front affects understeer. The grip only becoumes adversly affected when the bar rate is excessive. Whether the stock bars are the correct rate is another argument altogether.

Also, controlling roll with stiffer springs is possible, but stiffer springs = less static sag = less -ve suspension travel = tyres off road on rough shit.

What i mean is, if you run 10 kg/mm front springs, and an ae86 weighs 300kg at each front corner, then you are getting 30mm of static sag. Run 7kg springs and you get 47mm of sag. Therefore, the car can bounce more distance without losing contact on a softer spring. Plus stiff springs are uncomfortable and put enourmous strain on the chassis which, in an ae86 is, well, less than rigid.

It's a happy medium. Excess in any area will fuck the package.

[RobertoX]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (LAZY @ May 21 2008, 04:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534590)</div>
no they don't lol.[/b]

you missed what i was saying

[ae71]

yeah as i said 10kg is only tempoary. its my daily, it was horendous for lack of tyre contact, but going back to 14's has helped a lot with that. has a few hairy moments with 15's + bumps under braking. its managed able now.

[irl86]

thanks for the response guys some great help there a bit hard to take it all in :blink:
so after checkin up racing logic product list and checkin for spring rates available,(is there any easy way to check rates?)
i can assume that i have front 7.5kg/mm and rear 4.8kg/mm givin me a ratio of 1.56 so according to the 'my accoustic' link my car wil tend to understeer?

also with the whiteline front bar xan anyone confirm if this fouls the front strut?(i hav 40mm rca's,corona xt130 arms)

[rthy]

well again its all up to personal opinion, I don't know if its because his corolla has a different weight distrubution but I think closer to 1.5x is the way to go, maybe even 1.4x

I am running XT130 arms, 45mm RCA's and it doesnt go close, I don't doubt Dave here so maybe mine is different somehow?

[RobertoX]

I'm not doubting you either same

it is the fastener on the link that hits it

ill see if i can get pics

[slydar]

whiteline adjustable front sway bar will definitely foul. and reduce the amount of lock you can get. would not recommend it for drift at all.

i wouldn't spend the extra on adjustable bars at all. well the whitelines. the adjustment method just seems really feeble and shitty to me.

you can bet the cuscos have had a little more r&d put into them so if you think your handling preferences are more aligned with the way the japanese set up cars, then these would be the best if you can afford them. having said that theyre a similar size to the whitelines non adjustable really.

[rthy]

I am interested now, I will put mine on full lock and have a look if it touches, I may of just missed it till now.

[RobertoX]

^ it touches when the wheels are straight

whiteline is made in south korea now :(

[eightsixboy]

I took my rear adjustable bar off last night to try to try and pin point a knock i have in the rear and i was surprised how much better the car handled without it on. before with the lowest setting in would have like a oversteer wobble after cornering hard, like an after movement of oversteer, now thats gone and the car still handle well and has oversteer if you want it thru the go pedal.

I'm thinking about not running a rear bar or putting the standard one back on.

[Konakid]

^ you need a front one to combat the rear and/or back off the rear a bit.

BTW swaybars are mainly used to control body roll, NOT springs.

[eightsixboy]

yeah you definently need a front one, i'm putting my rear one back on now, i gave it a little test before on some windy back streets and it understeers a bit more than it used to.

[Konakid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (af300e @ May 21 2008, 06:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534623)</div>
"As most factory vehicles are biased towards understeer, fitting of the larger rear swaybar will help in providing a more neutral characteristic in the handling at the limit"

^^From the whiteline website.

It's well known that rear bar affects oversteer, front affects understeer. The grip only becoumes adversly affected when the bar rate is excessive. Whether the stock bars are the correct rate is another argument altogether.

Also, controlling roll with stiffer springs is possible, but stiffer springs = less static sag = less -ve suspension travel = tyres off road on rough shit.

What i mean is, if you run 10 kg/mm front springs, and an ae86 weighs 300kg at each front corner, then you are getting 30mm of static sag. Run 7kg springs and you get 47mm of sag. Therefore, the car can bounce more distance without losing contact on a softer spring. Plus stiff springs are uncomfortable and put enourmous strain on the chassis which, in an ae86 is, well, less than rigid.

It's a happy medium. Excess in any area will fuck the package.[/b]

Spot on the money, well said


<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (slydar @ May 22 2008, 07:52 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=534932)</div>
whiteline adjustable front sway bar will definitely foul. and reduce the amount of lock you can get. would not recommend it for drift at all.

i wouldn't spend the extra on adjustable bars at all. well the whitelines. the adjustment method just seems really feeble and shitty to me.

you can bet the cuscos have had a little more r&d put into them so if you think your handling preferences are more aligned with the way the japanese set up cars, then these would be the best if you can afford them. having said that theyre a similar size to the whitelines non adjustable really.[/b]

Exactly what i was thinking when i put the adjustable front in, i havent looked at any other mac strut adjustable bars but the design looks far too bulky and messy. I'm most probably going to change to a Cusco 23mm solid front.

Anyone here have experience with front and rear swaybars with 8 and 6kg springs?

[Oly AE86]

Front whiteline adjustable fouls HEAPs with my std front strut, T3 RCA and RX7 Calipers. I am also thinking about getting a non-adjustable so I can get some lock back.

When It hits the swaybar, there is flexing of the links and so it will spring back if I let it, not nice :(

[RobertoX]

i put whiteline bars in my 86 when it had stock susp

it was AWESOME

then my ae71 turbo

with all my susp

with stock sways

was the most predictable car, was really good

will play around with them on the next car

i think it comes down to preference

[irl86]

will non adjustable reduce lock with pwr steering arms installed?

[RobertoX]

^ no

[Konakid]

Depends on what the back spacing is on your wheels, you need to have pretty aggressive offset wheels to avoid hitting the inner chassis rail and swaybar with PS arms.

With 10mm longer Control arms, 14x7+8 will hit. With a 7mm spacer its sweet.

[af300e]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Meathead #2 @ May 22 2008, 11:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535431)</div>
Depends on what the back spacing is on your wheels, you need to have pretty aggressive offset wheels to avoid hitting the inner chassis rail and swaybar with PS arms.

With 10mm longer arms, 14x7+8 will hit. With a 7mm spacer its sweet.[/b]

Aren't the PS arms shorter, not longer?

[Konakid]

Edited

[shinny]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (irl86 @ May 22 2008, 09:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535360)</div>
will non adjustable reduce lock with pwr steering arms installed?[/b]


i fitted a whiteline swaybar the other week didn't affect the amount of lock at all,

as a plus it greatly reduced the amount of understeer i was getting,