Extractors

[eightsixboy]

Hey guys, i'm thinking bout getting some for my hachi but have heard different things from different people. some say its not worth the money and some say you'll gain anywere from 5-10 atw.

For the money 5-10 kw atw would be unbelivable but i do doubt that much of a gain would come from a stock 4ag, maybe with cams, itbs and ecu you'll gain like 5 kw atw with the extractors, but yeah i don't know, what have you guys gained from them?

cheers.

[rthy]

I havent done any before afters yet but I am pretty confident that going to the "trd copy" design that is floating around would be a sure fire way to lose power. Heres a quick lesson for you: almost all pipes for sale are rubbish.

[riceburner]

I'm fishing on Sams Boat here.

And if Bill Sherwood says stock manifold good for 180hp then who am i to argue.

Extractors would mearly move your power output in the rpm range anyways, not really give any more power, bigger primary's = much the same power just available higher in the rpm.

When you alter the cam duration and seek more power then extractors will come into there own.

If you were to read Bill Sherwoods 4age mod page it gives you a pretty good idea as to what works and what doesnt.

[parrot]

And another on the bandwagon. I also heard the TTA story that they made 180hp with the standard manifold, from a well connected source many years ago.

Extractors might make a peaky motor even more so, they break easily etc etc. And everything the other guys said.

Toyota clearly did their homework here and produced a good manifold out of the box.

I had lots of problems over the years with extractors on 2T Celica engines and L series Datsun engines, and would avoid them if at all possible.

I realise that a genuine RWD manifold can sometimes be difficult to source however, and that would be my only reason for getting one. I have done a reasonable amount of work to my engine and plan quads down the track. The standard exhaust manifold will be staying

[lowau]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (parrot @ May 22 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535293)</div>
Toyota clearly did their homework here and produced a good manifold out of the box.[/b]
Then why did they change them for the silvertop/blacktop?

The factory RWD extractor design is pretty good but i thought that extractors should be better. I was seriously looking at getting the TRD copy ones for my JDM bigport but you guys have put doubts in my mind, damm you, lol.

On my engine I have the top part and then two longer pipes(mild steel not the factory second bit) that extend and then go into a single 2 1/4"

Should I leave it stock or buy extractors??? :unsure:

[roadsailing]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lowau @ May 23 2008, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535501)</div>
Then why did they change them for the silvertop/blacktop?

The factory RWD extractor design is pretty good but i thought that extractors should be better. I was seriously looking at getting the TRD copy ones for my JDM bigport but you guys have put doubts in my mind, damm you, lol.

On my engine I have the top part and then two longer pipes(mild steel not the factory second bit) that extend and then go into a single 2 1/4"

Should I leave it stock or buy extractors??? :unsure:[/b]

stock cams and no idea = stock exhaust manifold

cams, porting, tuning, know what you are on about = CUSTOM pipes

want to look cool = off the shelf garbage pipes

[eightsixboy]

Ok, thats good then, i can save some money by not buying any :teehee:

[riceburner]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lowau @ May 23 2008, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535501)</div>
Then why did they change them for the silvertop/blacktop?

The factory RWD extractor design is pretty good but i thought that extractors should be better. I was seriously looking at getting the TRD copy ones for my JDM bigport but you guys have put doubts in my mind, damm you, lol.

On my engine I have the top part and then two longer pipes(mild steel not the factory second bit) that extend and then go into a single 2 1/4"

Should I leave it stock or buy extractors??? :unsure:[/b]


Same as mine.

How long are your secondaries, mine go from stock manifold all the way back to the bum section of the passenger seathen then a short 5-6" lenght right before the cat then 2 1/4 the rest of way.

[choom78]

Learn the facts and make your own decision.

Here is a well described article I've come across.
http://www.team-integra.net/sections/artic...asp?ArticleID=2 (http://www.team-integra.net/sections/articles/showArticle.asp?ArticleID=2)

And yes, we can learn a few things from honda tuning.

if you want my opinion, yes there are gains to be had. But their are losses as well if you don't do it properly.

[wideslider]

stock with extended secondaries are where my money is at.

[Nikkojoe]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (wideslider @ May 23 2008, 12:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535616)</div>
stock with extended secondaries are where my money is at.[/b]

+1

I got custom ones made up and made sure I got my secondaries made up to as factory as possible but slightly longer. They collect about 5-10cm away from the flange and sound awesome :)

I have both rwd 16v headers and trd copies and I prefer the factory, they really are a good design.

[Anthony]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lowau @ May 23 2008, 07:19 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535501)</div>
Then why did they change them for the silvertop/blacktop?

The factory RWD extractor design is pretty good but i thought that extractors should be better. I was seriously looking at getting the TRD copy ones for my JDM bigport but you guys have put doubts in my mind, damm you, lol.

On my engine I have the top part and then two longer pipes(mild steel not the factory second bit) that extend and then go into a single 2 1/4"

Should I leave it stock or buy extractors??? :unsure:[/b]


The main advantage for the apparently "rubbish" extractors that I sell is for people that do not have full 2 piece RWD headers with their motor. IE they're converting a small port or a 20V into an AE86. For the price and in this situation I think they're a good product.

Since you already apparently own toyota RWD headers, I also wouldn't be in a rush to change them, and if you must, then aim for something a little more expensive. Cusco or 5Zigen have some nice products still available new, but bear in mind horsepower for dollar ratio will probably be somewhere in between a fuel magnetizer and an earthing kit.

Extractor theory is right up there with carby's and auto transmissions as the blackest of automotive arts, and I love how many expert's there are out there. In the end, the other components in your exhaust could have a much bigger impact on the performance of the motor than the headers alone. There are so many factors it's not funny.

I am no gas flow expert, but I have now dynoed many 4AGE's of 16 and 20V varieties with the whole spectrum of mods, and the only headers that I have noticed holding back a motor have been the ugliest of home made pipes. All the rest do the job from OEM, to the "rubbish" trd copies to the higher end japanese aftermarket.

[rthy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Anthony @ May 23 2008, 06:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535760)</div>
Since you already apparently own toyota RWD headers, I also wouldn't be in a rush to change them, and if you must, then aim for something a little more expensive. Cusco or 5Zigen have some nice products still available new, but bear in mind horsepower for dollar ratio will probably be somewhere in between a fuel magnetizer and an earthing kit.[/b]

hehhehehe, Anthony you crack me up and I have to agree with you on this and your other points.

On a slightly different note I have a high quality set of 4-1 pipes which I will try on my car and compare them to 4-2-1's to see some real world differences.

[slydar]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ May 22 2008, 05:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535194)</div>
I havent done any before afters yet but I am pretty confident that going to the "trd copy" design that is floating around would be a sure fire way to lose power. Heres a quick lesson for you: almost all pipes for sale are rubbish.[/b]

based on what? ive seen and driven a ton of motors with them that all perform well. there IS evidence to say, they don't hurt power. and none to say they do.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FKN16v @ May 22 2008, 07:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535273)</div>
I'm fishing on Sams Boat here.

And if Bill Sherwood says stock manifold good for 180hp then who am i to argue.

Extractors would mearly move your power output in the rpm range anyways, not really give any more power, bigger primary's = much the same power just available higher in the rpm.

When you alter the cam duration and seek more power then extractors will come into there own.

If you were to read Bill Sherwoods 4age mod page it gives you a pretty good idea as to what works and what doesnt.[/b]

also.. bill sherwoods page? is based on? building one 4age from what i can tell, and kicking around some racing circles. Bill isnt an idiot. he's also no where near the authority most people think he is.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (parrot @ May 22 2008, 08:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=535293)</div>
And another on the bandwagon. I also heard the TTA story that they made 180hp with the standard manifold, from a well connected source many years ago.

Extractors might make a peaky motor even more so, they break easily etc etc. And everything the other guys said.[/b]

re the 180 hp thing. sure, it can be done, if the rules restrict you to using one I'm sure youll find ways to make it work.

re strength. the brand new "trd copies" are well proven to be very very durable.

2nd hand million heat cycle jdm stainless ones will continually break though, yes.


my opinion. the trd copies are a very good option all things considered, if you don't have the stock set up to begin with.

i can tell you shane binghams engine made 200hp on an engine dyno with them. based on that, and alot of other milder set ups, i can say for sure, theyre not shit.

those are the ones i have the most experience with.

I'm not sure what other mod you can do for around $300 that will make you more power? a 4.3 diff ratio would be about the only better option, but thatll be a struggle getting it in and fitted for a similar price.

nothing cheap is gonna make much of a difference on a 20 year old 1.6L na engine. after a nice exhaust, and a neat intake set up, headers would be my next mod.

then cams. then came gears. then quads and ecu.

[Trev084]

Terry put my extractors on the fx-16 gt racecar and got a gain of 15hp at the wheels.

[biggo]

bah i have both trd copyies and factory RWD headers.

In my drunk opinion, it really really comes down to what your car is setup for. If read up on primary/secondary extractors you will find a big difference in what they are DESIGNED for. ive forn out the hard way, but would i change it? No, because I'm used to it now, BUT had i to do it all again, well thats a question for the wallet :)

[rthy]

slydar to make sure we are talking about the exact same thing could you post a pic of these pipes

[slydar]

sure.

[pope]

The Wiki article on exhaust manifolds is an interesting read.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_(aut...ve_engineering) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifold_(automotive_engineering))

The general gist I got from it was that you need to match the design of the manifold/header/extractor to the application of the engine.

Anyone got specs of the trd headers or copies. Ie whether they use stepping and the length of their primaries and so on?

[wth03]

does anyone use a s/t 20v stock header on a rwd setting?
how does it compare to the stock jdm hearder apart form the weight?

[rthy]

the stock header needs to be chopped off virtually at the flange and remade to fit in the rwd application. So no comparsin can be made at all unfortunetly.

[slydar]

so sam, i posted a photo.. nothing more to add?

[rthy]

yeah thanks for the pic, just confirming we where talking about the same set of pipes otherwise I would of made a total dick of myself.

It amazes me that you think all the extractors are pretty much the same on the road, I just thought the performance would of suffered with the cheated bends off the flange. I am not saying that you wrong because quite simply I havent tried them and therefore I don't know anything for sure. Amazing price on them by the way.

On a bit of a side note I have some nice japanese made 4-1s on the way to me and I will be able to do some back to back testing against my own 4-2-1s, it wont be a very good comparasin though as when I made mine I didnt know better and I made them too short.

[awang]

i got more responsive on the lower to mid range by using this, but i'm not sure how much Hp that i gain

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa28/mad4toy/hks1.jpg

[Roo]

i know this is abit offtopic but can 20v extractors fit on 16v? don't you need to drill them out?

[rthy]

awang: what did you have before?

roo: redrill the two outside holes

[awang]

Sam, before i had the standard 4age bigport manifold, now i'm using that HKS super header II

[rthy]

thanks I find that quite interesting, theoreticly it makes sense as your secondaries as tuned for quite a low resonance if its the way I think it is

[lo_rolla]

On my standard JDM bigport I got a set of fancy Jap extractors. They got JASMA on 'em, and they look kinda like slydars ones. So they might be Gen TRD ones?? But I imagine they'd have trd written on 'em somewhere.
I believe they helped greatly, but I have no back to back evidence to back this up as I haven't driven another JDM bigport.

Only problem they are fucking old and had rust holes in 'em... Shot big ass flames out the back but. I actually lit a small fire on the side of the road on Glorious with my exhaust.

I have those extractors, another Jasma pipe about 2 foot long, then 2 inch mild press bent mild steel and then a big ass muffler. It pulled all the way to the redline, I could just tell it wanted to keep goin too.

[rthy]

take a pic of it, I want to see

[lo_rolla]

Fuck it's a biggin'

This is the best photo I could find. I can't upload any more cos I haven't uploaded the photo hardware yet.

[rthy]

if you get a chance could you take a photo of the side of the head flange and also of the collector?

[lo_rolla]

Yeah I can do that. Tomorrow but, I don't wanna get attacked by giant spiders and deadly Koala's walking to the shed.

[Teddy]

^^ yeah, those drop bears really can cause a nasty paper cut & fleshy skin wound.

[quadeyquade]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Teddy @ Jun 1 2008, 07:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=539768)</div>
^^ yeah, those drop bears really can cause a nasty paper cut & fleshy skin wound.[/b]
so can a 25yr old corolla ;)

[lo_rolla]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (quadeyquade @ Jun 2 2008, 10:10 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=539924)</div>
so can a 25yr old corolla ;)[/b]
Tell me about it, every time I work on my car I bleed. Luckily I've had my tetanus shot..

Just the other day when I taking off the gearbox mounts a big fuck off spider fell onto my face.... hit my fucking head on the bottom of my car.

[Intense]

What sort of extractors would suit a ae101 gze? I've got a stock rwd manifold atm so would that be ok to slap a 2.25" on the back?

[rthy]

I think that combination would work pretty well

[djscheppy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (intense @ Jun 2 2008, 06:30 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=540182)</div>
What sort of extractors would suit a ae101 gze? I've got a stock rwd manifold atm so would that be ok to slap a 2.25" on the back?[/b]


so wait, theres no difference between Bigport/Smallport RWD exhaust manifolds?
i've got a FWD gze I'm trying to source one for (putting it into my ae86). i thought extractors would be the answer, but since reading this post ive changed my mind.
does the bigport manifold bolt straight up?

[rthy]

no theres no difference between small and bigport exhausts

[djscheppy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Jun 9 2008, 11:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=543727)</div>
no theres no difference between small and bigport exhausts[/b]

cheers for clearing that up sam!

[rthy]

no problem