16V Oil problems

[Snoozy]

So on the weekend i damaged the head on my 4age (about 3000 ks old)
it has worn groves where the cam sits in the head and stuffed both cams, apparently the head will fix.
was looking over it with an engine mechanic and he said that it has been running lean on oil in the top-end, caused by cornering hard/drifting.
just wondering if anyone els has had this problem and how have they fixed it?
eg. oil baffles in sump?

all opinions appreciated
Cheers

Edit* engine is smallport

[SpotterOne]

Seems strange to me. 16v's tend to have TOO MUCH oil in the cam boxes, hence the need to switch the cam covers around to try and get the oil out and back down to the sump before it pumps it out through the breather.

I've not had an issue with mine, and I almost certainly generate a more g-forces than a sprinter through a corner, especially if you are drifting. Then again, I have a couple of mods that would certainly make it less likely for the pickup to run dry.

I run a winged and baffled sump, TRD oil pump gears and keep the oil about 5mm above the full mark on the dipstick. My breather now goes into a catch can, which almost always gets about 100ml in it after a track day. No oil goes into it driving around on the street though.

[p a c - m a n]

I drive the ring out of my AE82 bigport along the sideling. max revs, bugger-all excuse for a straight and no problem at all. ever.

I've never heard of this happening to a 4AGE of any sort? possibly has, but not that ive ever come across?

So what now from here?


PS: agree with the above statement, over fill your oil by about 500-750ml when at the track.


And does the head have scorch marks where the cams were?

[Delazy]

i always thought it was more a oil feed problem at high revs....which is why many companies released high flow springs for the oil pump....ideally we'd all love TRD oil pump gears, but sadly no longer available :( but if anyone knows of anything similar feel free to point me in the right direction i know myself and ken want something

as fair as oil goes for me....will be running a oil cooler with thermostat, HKS or similar high flow oil pump spring but yea...if anyone knows of aftermarket oil flow pumps or what not, do tell

[p a c - m a n]

Isnt a bigger oil pump needed when engine speeds exceed factory intended rpm? aint daim's got factory rev limiter?

[Waz]

high flow springs?

That would just be a spring to uprate the std pressure relief spring, more pressure not flow.

[Sprinter86]

I've had oil problems in by smallport, had it in my sprinter for 3 days, taking a hard left (drifting) and the engine stalled. when i started it again (i checked oil level, it was spot on full line) i was getting knocking from the bottom end under load.
Turned out i had ran out of oil at all 4 of my big ends and mains!!
luckily i didnt spin a any of the bearings! Does anyone know how i can get my hands on an aftermarket oil pump? does a 20v pump fit a 16v? and sump baffling, anyone with experience with this?
any other thoughts on what could of caused this?

Thanks!

[Jonny Rochester]

I have read (after doing a google search) about a 4A-GE with a 3mm spacer on the oil pressure spring to up the oil pressure. If you had a good oil pressure gauge, it would not be too hard to test this. I havn't done it yet.

[balistic]

Was re-watching my HotVersion Vol86 DVD the other day - I think I recall the TRD N2 car having some issues during one of the practise sessions and it looked they pulled the oil pump out and were fiddling with the spring - and comparing a new pump with the existing one - but its all in Japanese so I had no idea what they were saying? :(

[70XIN]

You can do the spacer/spring trick to bump up pressure

And there's a small amount of "porting" that can be done around the oil pickup flange and inside where the gears are

Other than that, nothing else major you can do, the pump's good for plenty of revs

[Sprinter86]

All the info i read about 4AGE oil pumps is that theyre pretty damn good!
the main reason i want to replace/uprgrade mine is that it has had damage on the housing of the gears, score and scratch marks.
possibly from unwanted crap in the oil?
i have another good housing i can use, but does anyone know if 20v gears will fit?
as ive read that theyre build for higher pressure(because of vvt)

i'll prob try a little clean up of the oil "port", and will give the spring spacer thing a try for sure, thanx guys!

[Gunner]

The only reason a toyota burns the camseats/caps, is lack of oil pressure, at 300k your oil pump is usually stuffed.

Chances are that your bearings need to be done aswell, the motor has probably started to eat itself buy now, thats ruined the pump, oil pressure has dropped and its done the big damage.

or you have quite simply ran it out of oil, even if you oil is down a quarter, it greatly increases the chance of oil surge.

when playing with your oil pump, try not to bend it, they can bend very easily by putting too much force on them. With bumping up the pressure be very carefull, alot of issues can arise if you do not pay attention to the size and width of the washer, you may encounter extremely high pressure while its cold and push out seals, or bend and crack internal components, even snap the pump gears.

depending on the pump i tend to use a 10mm spring washer, yes spring washer,why? thats my business.

[lo_rolla]

So say I'm looking at revving in excess of 9250 rpm, what should I do.
All I got planned is increased sump volume, rebuilt oil pump with finer clearances and was gonna look at other motors for a good replacement spring.

Tell me more about this 3mm spacer....

[Gunner]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (sprinter86 @ Jun 18 2008, 11:22 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=548057)</div>
I've had oil problems in by smallport, had it in my sprinter for 3 days, taking a hard left (drifting) and the engine stalled. when i started it again (i checked oil level, it was spot on full line) i was getting knocking from the bottom end under load.
Turned out i had ran out of oil at all 4 of my big ends and mains!!
luckily i didnt spin a any of the bearings! Does anyone know how i can get my hands on an aftermarket oil pump? does a 20v pump fit a 16v? and sump baffling, anyone with experience with this?
any other thoughts on what could of caused this?

Thanks![/b]


You need to change your pump whether you want to or not, if its scored even slightly it will cause an oil pressure drop. All it takes is a small amount of bearing metal or anythin simalar to do damage.

Shimming the oil pump relief valve. A very simple mod, get it wrong and you will hurt your motor. There is a big nut on the bottom of your oil pump, that retains your oil pressure relief vlave, a piston and spring. You remove the nut/plug whatever. Be very careful, as they have a tendancy to fly off under pressure, is kinda cool to shoot them, but watch the car.
Inside you will find a spring and a piston as i said earlier, remove them, the piston will try and stay inside, compressed air into the top hole of the relief chamber will solve that, if you have to, tap it on a piece of wood. Be careful not to bend the pump, at all. Once you have your relief piston, go and find the right size washer to fit snuggley inside, remember that now your relief spring is using this as its new seat, so the greater area it has to sit the better.

Put it back together, with a SHITLOAD of oil, the majority of the oil needs to stay inside, for priming.

You should use some sort of impact driver and loctite, for the screws if you pull apart the pump itself, just becareful not to bend the pump, if it is bent, the gears will crack fairly easily.

as for the 20v pump fitting, id go gze first, if they fit.

Cheers Rhys

[70XIN]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (lo_rolla @ Jun 19 2008, 07:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=548973)</div>
So say I'm looking at revving in excess of 9250 rpm, what should I do.
All I got planned is increased sump volume, rebuilt oil pump with finer clearances and was gonna look at other motors for a good replacement spring.

Tell me more about this 3mm spacer....[/b]

While mine won't rev quite as high..

I will be doing spring/spacer
Porting the two inlet/outlets
Cryogenically treating the whole shebang, i'd hate to see my gears fall apart after all that bottom end work .. it's $50 well spent

I have modded the pickup so it's sucking about 1cm lower in the pan

And also partitioned the sump into 4 sections, with 3 one-way-flowing baffles, bit like tomei sumps i guess (RB26) to prevent any kind of cornering/braking/accelerating oil surge


Sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't really, and i'm sure i won't be doing anything any harm..

[lo_rolla]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (70XIN @ Jun 19 2008, 10:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=549114)</div>
While mine won't rev quite as high..

I will be doing spring/spacer
Porting the two inlet/outlets
Cryogenically treating the whole shebang, i'd hate to see my gears fall apart after all that bottom end work .. it's $50 well spent

I have modded the pickup so it's sucking about 1cm lower in the pan

And also partitioned the sump into 4 sections, with 3 one-way-flowing baffles, bit like tomei sumps i guess (RB26) to prevent any kind of cornering/braking/accelerating oil surge


Sounds like a lot of work, but it isn't really, and i'm sure i won't be doing anything any harm..[/b]
Sounds sweet then. I'll be getting a bit of shit heat treated, from my time at TAFE I've come to appreciate that it's a cheap price to pay in the scheme of things.

I also got a oil cooler and filter relocater aswell..

Did you increase sump capacity? Since my motor isn't in the car I can't work out the clearances for which way I can go with making it bigger.

You can baffle my sump too if you want, I suck balls at welding.

[Delazy]

haha...yea agree with lo rolla.....wanna do a sump and oil pump for me aswell :P

[70XIN]

lo_rolla just be careful that you do the right type of heat treating, some will warp/change size of some parts, although i don't know exactly which ones do...

BUT i do know that cryogenics, while it doesn't case harden or do anything "amazing" like that, it has a great deal of positives and doesn't change the size/shape of the object one bit

The changes in size (of other treatments, nitriding, tufftriding etc) could be as little as 0.001mm, but noone wants to give me the specifics, so i'm not going to risk it

So cryo it is



Oh, and my sump doesn't look anything special, but it's easy enough to do, just a little time consuming :)

I didn't increase my sump capacity, simply because with a good oil cooler, there's no need to have 8-9L of oil in there, stays frosty as even after 10+ laps of limiter in my experience. I think it's more a GTR wank factor thing. Happy to be proven any way otherwise though, i'm not jebus.

Oil pump is equally easy, just make sure you have a steady hand while grinding :sweat:

I'm more than happy to help anyone in any way i can :turned:


There's an ebay oil pump group called "TOGA" who claim to do higher capacity oil pumps, i'm sceptical(?).

[lo_rolla]

That'd be like buyin a TRG head gasket or some thing... Or it's an oil pump that goes to Roman orgies...

Well, if I need help I'll come to you.

[ae71]

a larger capacity sump will hold more oil (obviously) so if the oil sloshes to one side, there is more than enough volume still in the sump to keep the pickup submersed, baffels are even more ideal. brown eye has a "winged" sump, would seem to make a lot of sence as the oil can't really slosh in the wings are they are full of oil, no space to move. i believe that he has tested this on my roundabout laps.

for most applications a new GENUINE pump should be enough unless you are pulling excessively high revs. a new pump should cope with more than factory revs, we are talking Toyota here, not other manufacturers junk that gives up the goast when you push past ome levels off anything..

delazy, those TRD gears are the same as factory only they are forged or some shit, basically stronger. thats what research has told me anyway.

[Gunner]

I wanna know if a gze pump is any different, anyone got an idea?

Rhys

[lo_rolla]

I swear once I read about an RB oil pump on a 4A or have I been reading about cars drunk again?

[70XIN]

drunk as shit lo_rolla hahaha

20V gears are significantly different, haven't pulled apart my GZE to look if it's different to a bigport, so i can only comment on 20V vs Bigport

pumps themselves are all very very similar, except the backing plate that holds the gears in looks slightly different