Serious 4AGE oil leak

[Golberg]

Now I've answered quite a few people questions lately so I figured I'd ask one myself for a change.

Basically just completed my engine conversion which is a small port 4AGE in an AE71.

Now too my surprise after I got the engine in and running I found that it leaked oil rather badly and it looks like its coming out around the oil pump seal gasket as it is dripping off the side of the oil pump. Now the engine to my knowledge wasn't leaking oil in the previous car it was in and it had only been recently installed into that car before it was rear ended (AE82) prior to which the engine had been freshened by resealing a lot of things including the sump, manifolds, water system etc (but the oil pump gasket looks factory) and cleaning out all the crap built up whilst in Japan.

Once the engine gets a little warm the leak is bad enough that is literally goes drip-drip-drip about 3 times a sec onto the ground but only leaks very slowly (probably a few drips an hour at most) when cold.

I'm leaning toward it being the pump gasket and not the front crank seal, because that'd probably weep slowly would it not?

I guess the point I'm a getting to, I'm going to pull it all apart soon but should I expect something untoward? Like maybe a cracked oil pump?

Cheers for the advice.

[Jonny Rochester]

Just pull it apart, crank pulley off, timing belt off etc. Take the oil pump off and silicon it onto the block, and get a new front seal anyway, cheap enough. Then it should be good.

[Gunner]

When you get the oil pump off, pull it apart and clean it, when its back together, turn the pump gear, and see how tight it is, if the car it was previously in was smashed, it may have caused the pump to hit something and bend, it is very common for this to happen with subaru's, haven't seen it happen with a 4a, but would be good to check, might save you doin the job again, might save your motor one day.


Cheers
Rhys

[Sparkle86]

While you have it apart it might pay to do the cam seals at the same time, because if the crank seal is worn you can be pretty sure the cam ones are too.

[SpotterOne]

Run your engine for a little bit, and have a look for a line of oil on the ground or the underside of your bonnet perpendicular to the car. If there isn't one there, its unlikely to be your front crank seal. If it is your front crank seal, the oil would invariably spin down the crank, onto the crank pulley and get sprayed in a nice neat line around it.

Check the pump housing very carefully for cracks and damage. When you get it off, put it on a known flat surface to check for warpage.

While you have it off, change the seals as the others have said, and change the cambelt as well. You have to take it off anyway!

[Golberg]

Thanks for all the responses (y)

The wasn't any front end damage to the car so I wouldn't have thought that'd the impact would have caused a problem but I guess a lot of force still goes through the car and could have caused a problem. I did in fact change the timing belt just before I put the engine in so its still basically brand new. I also had a good look at the cam seals when I did the timing belt and there was no evidence of any leaking or damage there.

I had forgotten but oil is in fact going onto the crank pulley also I noticed that there was oil splatter in a line up one of the skirt panels (no bonnet on so I wasn't going to see any on the bonnet).

But so the general consensus is to take the thing off, clean it all up, inspect for any cracks, damage or warpage and for how freely the pump spins. Then reassemble with a new crank seal and seal the pump to the block using silicone sealant.

Not sure when I'll get to do this because I plan on doing it when I go to take the engine out again because A it will be easier and B I have some semi-structural rust to fix at which time I'd rather not have the weight load of the engine and gearbox in. But I can't fix the rust yet because I don't have a MIG welder and I can't afford to buy a new one so I'm looking for a good gas one second hand or at least one I can borrow for a week or so.

One other question, will I need to take the sump off to take the oil pump off?

[SpotterOne]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Golberg @ Jul 2 2008, 02:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=555604)</div>
One other question, will I need to take the sump off to take the oil pump off?[/b]

No. You can get it out by undoing the 4 x 10mm bolts that go through the sump into the bottom of the oil pump housing. There is no sump gasket, so nothing to mess up there. Just make sure you clean the sealing surfaces well without letting any gasket goo go into your sump.

It can be harder to put the pump back on though, because you can't really keep the gasket goo on the sump flange properly when you put the pump back on.

If the oil is mostly coming out of the crank seal, you can change the seal in the car fairly easily. Get a cheap #0 Phillips screwdriver and sharpen it up. Bend the last 6-8mm over in a right angle. Hammer it into the seal and pull the seal out. don't hammer it in till it bottoms out, just far enough so you can twist it around. Bash a new one in very gently with a flat piece of metal under your hammer, making sure you do it as evenly as possible.

[riceburner]

Whats your oil pressure like

[slide86]

its not running from a cam seal and behind that black cover then down onto the oil pump.

cam seals can be common to leak. specially on an engine with a few kms under the belt

[Golberg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FKN16v @ Jul 4 2008, 06:54 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=556666)</div>
Whats your oil pressure like[/b]
To be honest, I've got no idea, I don't have an oil pressure gauge. It would also appear that the block only has one of the oil pressure warning light switches rather than an actual pressure sender. Good investment to get a pressure gauge then? The only thing I don't like it having a gauges mounted badly, but I guess I could try and work out something nice to maybe integrate into the place where the tape deck would be.

[Golberg]

Well I have an oil pressure gauge on its way..

In any event, I actually started to work on it today got everything off down to the crank timing pulley.

According to the repair manual its just a grab the pulley and pull if off job. No dice, this thing is stuck fast.

So any thoughts on how to remove the bottom timing pulley?

Doesn't seem that a gear puller will fit in there, and there aren't any threaded holes to attach another sort of puller on so I'm running out of ideas.

The only thing I came up with was to maybe knock in a wedge from the top, pull it out, rotate crank 180 degrees, repeat until it comes off. My only concern there is that I might end up cracking the oil pump housing.

Any advice would be great thanks.

[riceburner]

I feel your pain Globerg, i had excactly the same delima.

Wedge it out is about all you can do, i didnt hurt the oil pump housing but i did destry the timing pulley and the front oil seal.

Real pain in the ass.

If i had my time again i was be using MAP gas and heating that shit up, it should pull off fairly easy once you start to work it loose.

Just make sure you heat he pulley evenly on all sides.

[Gunner]

One thiing I learnt while workin on some tuff 4a's, get a M6X1.25 tap, tap the two holes on the pulley, then use a puller, job done.

[SpotterOne]

take the bolt out and spray heaps of WD40 in there. Keep doing it every 30 mins or so or until you get jack of it. The next day, take a "hard" soft faced hammer and Lightly tap it ON. Hit it about as hard as you would to start a nail into a bit of wood. It should be just enough to break the rust and stuff that has formed between the crank and the pulley.

The other (better) option is to get a proper puller. There are 2 x M6 threads in the pulley spokes. Use them with a puller to get it out. When you put it back on, put antiseize on the shaft and loctite on the thread.

[Golberg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (FKN16v @ Jul 18 2008, 07:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=562947)</div>
I feel your pain Globerg, i had excactly the same delima.

Wedge it out is about all you can do, i didnt hurt the oil pump housing but i did destry the timing pulley and the front oil seal.

Real pain in the ass.

If i had my time again i was be using MAP gas and heating that shit up, it should pull off fairly easy once you start to work it loose.

Just make sure you heat he pulley evenly on all sides.[/b]
I spent a while doing a sort of wedge behind pulley then leaver, turn 90 degrees repeat but ended up getting nowhere maybe I wasn't being harsh enough but I didn't want to damage anything.

I would have heated it up but I don't have access to anything which I can do it with unfortunately.

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gunbz-r @ Jul 18 2008, 08:28 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=562958)</div>
One thiing I learnt while workin on some tuff 4a's, get a M6X1.25 tap, tap the two holes on the pulley, then use a puller, job done.[/b]
After a while of trying the method I said above I gave up and decided to do what you did although I used an M6x1 tap not that it makes a huge amount of difference just that its a much more common size.

Anyhow, this was the result:
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/173687.jpg

:)

And here is the puller thing I made and the pulley itself:
http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/173688.jpg

The reason there are so many nuts on the bolts is because I had to gradually space the bolts up as it came further out because I didn't want to drill and tap all the way through the pulley.

It was so well stuck that I needed to use the puller all the way to the end of the shaft, I don't think it was ever in fact stuck fast, its just a SUPER tight pulley this one.

In any event I've got a couple more questions for those have been so helpful to respond:
1. When putting it all back together again, should I use my spare bottom timing pulley (which just slides on relatively easy) instead of this one because I may have weakened it from the drilling and tapping?

2. It would look to me that oil seal behind that pulley has seen better days as thought, what's a good technique for getting the thing out to put a new one in?

Thanks everybody :2thumbs:

[riceburner]

Screwdriver and long nose pliers will get the old 1 out.

New 1 just lightly apply oil on the inside rim of the seal and slide it on, gently and evenly.

Once its at the point you can't push it by hand anymore gently tap on the seal with a 1\2" socket extension bar tapping gently and evenly around the edge of the seal till its all nice and flat.

Thats what i did, wether its the right way or not i wouldn't know but it worked for me.

Oh and i wouldn't use that belt pulley again either, but thats just me!

And just make it even harder for next time i applied loctite to everything when it went back together :o

I hope it isnt me doing it

[Golberg]

Yeah I think I will end up putting my spare pulley back on, but I wont be using loctite on it or the crank bolt.

Well I determined from looking at my spare block (with oil pump still attached) that it would not be possible to remove the oil pump without taking the sump off.

So what did I do today, took the sump off!!! That sure was fun.

In the end I got the oil pump out and knocked the old crank main seal out. It was rock solid and had a couple of cracks in it so I'm guessing that was the source of my oil leakage.

With the pump off it seems to be in very good condition, I am hesitant to actually pull the pump apart though because I'm afraid that I may end up screwing something up inside it in the process so I think I'll just give it a good inspection looking for cracks then put it back on if everything seems good. I'll put a brand new seal in also obviously.

Then all I have to do is wire my ECU back in and the car will run again, hopefully minus the raging oil leak.

Then the only remaining thing to do is a complete reshell... I'm so over this car.

[rthy]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpotterOne @ Jul 4 2008, 11:26 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=556466)</div>
No. You can get it out by undoing the 4 x 10mm bolts that go through the sump into the bottom of the oil pump housing. There is no sump gasket, so nothing to mess up there. Just make sure you clean the sealing surfaces well without letting any gasket goo go into your sump.

It can be harder to put the pump back on though, because you can't really keep the gasket goo on the sump flange properly when you put the pump back on.[/b]

does the oil pickup go directly to the pump though? I can't remember

[Golberg]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Jul 20 2008, 09:25 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=563724)</div>
does the oil pickup go directly to the pump though? I can't remember[/b]
Yep, that's why I needed to take the sump off completely.

[rthy]

a bit of a side topic but can you take your sump off without taking your engine out? I am thinking yes by putting a piece of wood between the towers, a chain around it to the engine hooks, then dropping the crossmember. Would this work?

[Golberg]

I did it without taking the engine out, or the crossmember.

It's a really sucky job but it can be done by only taking simple things off.

Basically, you'll need to remove the 2 gearbox reinforcement brackets, you'll also want to remove any brackets that hang below the sump join line. The rest can be done with a 10mm socket and a medium - long extension bar and you'll also need a 10mm spanner to get to the ones underneath the crossmember.

When I pulled it off I thought that was a bad job, oh boy putting it back on was a lot worse. I ended up with silicone gasket maker all over myself.

EDIT - and another thing to note, when you split the existing seal. Its easier if you just cut the seal between the baffle plate and the sump pan rather than between the baffle plate and the block. After that remove the oil pickup then cut the seal on the baffle plate and pull it off.