Black top VS Silvertop

[DAMO46]

Sup lads,

I don't know if theres already a thread about this but i tried searching it and couldnt seem to find it.

Ive read a fair bit on both the engines but still kinda iffy about buying a silvertop, and cause i can find a blacktop anywhere it might just be a silvertop.

What do u guys reckon is a better engine, yes iam going to do a light build on the engine when i get it, cams. cam gears, pistons minor head work, etc.

Cheers

[Rollabender]

oh god, please search harder next time.

Read through peoples members rides, get opinions shit like that.

Mine - S/T ftw, cheaper, if you are going to rebuild it anyway the km's don't really matter. More aftermarket support than B/T. Difference in power is 3kW NEW. this basically two tenths of fuck all. People will say that they do feel different, but if you're modding it then all that shit becomes irrelevant. Buy a S/T already and search harder.

[Gunner]

as standard engines, id say blacktops seem to drive and deliver power better than a silvertop, not by much though.

if you are going to do a build, id go for the s/t as they're usually a fair wack cheaper. and you'd end up with a very similar result to the blacktop with the same mods, but then you can argue that from factory the b/t head is a better design, and would be the better base.

as always comes down to what you want to spend, and whether you can justify the extra $500 or so on the blacktop.

Rhys

[DAMO46]

okay mrs know it all, instead of gettin your knickers in a knot, post up where u found it?


haha good edit of the post?
Maybe post that shit up 1st time?

[DAMO46]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (gunbz-r @ Jul 6 2008, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557326)</div>
as standard engines, id say blacktops seem to drive and deliver power better than a silvertop, not by much though.

if you are going to do a build, id go for the s/t as they're usually a fair wack cheaper. and you'd end up with a very similar result to the blacktop with the same mods, but then you can argue that from factory the b/t head is a better design, and would be the better base.

as always comes down to what you want to spend, and whether you can justify the extra $500 or so on the blacktop.

Rhys[/b]

yeah thats what ive basically read up on,
its just so hard to find a bt, otherwise id buy it as ive got spare cash.

So pretty much both equally modded which would have a higher output?

[Rollabender]

The more money you spend the more non-existant the difference will be. Not that the difference is much to start with anyway.

If you really want to go that far into it, the only deciding factor at a high level of modification will be which motor has a better inherent head design / valve angle / port shape / shit like that.

[charged]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rollabender @ Jul 6 2008, 01:37 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557322)</div>
oh god, please search harder next time.

Read through peoples members rides, get opinions shit like that.

Mine - S/T ftw, cheaper, if you are going to rebuild it anyway the km's don't really matter. More aftermarket support than B/T. Difference in power is 3kW NEW. this basically two tenths of fuck all. People will say that they do feel different, but if you're modding it then all that shit becomes irrelevant. Buy a S/T already and search harder.[/b]

3KW not so sure about that <_< , I have a blacktop and the brother has a silver top, same engine dyno, ecu autronic, same trumpets and he had a custon set of pipes and I had ebay ones showed 165hp for his S/T and 185hp for the B/T. Up to 6000rpm very little difference then the BT romped away and made power all the way to 8600rpm. The silver top had given up the ghost at 7600rpm


My little beasty on the dyno

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/dcimages/4/8/4/3/172944.jpg

[Rollabender]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (charged @ Jul 6 2008, 02:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557346)</div>
3KW not so sure about that <_< , I have a blacktop and the brother has a silver top, same engine dyno, ecu autronic, same trumpets and he had a custon set of pipes and I had ebay ones showed 165hp for his S/T and 185hp for the B/T. Up to 6000rpm very little difference then the BT romped away and made power all the way to 8600rpm. The silver top had given up the ghost at 7600rpm[/b]

I quoted power figures when new - your example given has far too many variables to be reliable. Age is the main one. It comes down to bullshit small factors that must be kept uniform to make a proper comparison.

[DAMO46]

charged do u wanna get rid of that bt?? :!secret:

[charged]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rollabender @ Jul 6 2008, 02:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557350)</div>
I quoted power figures when new - your example given has far too many variables to be reliable. Age is the main one. It comes down to bullshit small factors that must be kept uniform to make a proper comparison.[/b]

I think this is a fair comparison, both engines are unopened, same dyno, ecu ( autronic SMC ), same atmospheric conditions(tuned on the same day), same exhaust system after the extractors, both were within specs for compression readings and both engines were tuned by the same guy. It shows when both engines are tuned correctly the BT is far superior than the ST in unopened stock spec with a decent ecu running the show. Show me the variables ?

[charged]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (damo46 @ Jul 6 2008, 02:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557353)</div>
charged do u wanna get rid of that bt?? :!secret:[/b]

Maybe soon, might be going to a 3s beams soon :greenbounce:

[Rollabender]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (charged @ Jul 6 2008, 02:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557355)</div>
I think this is a fair comparison, both engines are unopened, same dyno, ecu ( autronic SMC ), same atmospheric conditions(tuned on the same day), same exhaust system after the extractors, both were within specs for compression readings and both engines were tuned by the same guy. It shows when both engines are tuned correctly the BT is far superior than the ST in unopened stock spec with a decent ecu running the show. Show me the variables ?[/b]

Given that you didn't state any of this in your previous post, i could only assume them as unknown variables. Now that you've told us that isn't the case, i retract my previous statement.

[rthy]

no I still think theres too many variables, while its a nice looking setup you have there charged those "custom pipes" could be crap on the inside, your brothers could have lower compression because its more worn out and even the humidity could of changed between dyno runs.

I have seen some pipes that looked awesome but were complete dog shit on the inside, are his possibly like that?

[rthy]

oh I forgot to post my article:

http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/faq/inde...4age/20vengines (http://www.ae86drivingclub.com.au/faq/index.php/BY_ENGINE/4age/20vengines)

[slydar]

there are actually 2 versions of silver top, the later being a fair bit better apparently. would go a ways to explaining why some STs have heaps of punch and some are a bit flat. i don't know if it is a determining factor, but if you go silvertop, try to get one with the single actuator throttle linkage set up.

[rthy]

I thought the only difference was the single vs twin arm throttle actuator and the different manifold spacer. Do you know of anything else?

[Gunner]

well i would take a guess and say, that the later s/t with the single actuator, would have a slightly different map. nissan were constantly doing it with the sr's

[rthy]

if that is so I wonder if it would have a different part number?

I have serious doubts that there is a better and worse version of silvertop, it could be but I have seen no sign of it yet in the engines I have worked on/taken apart.

[Gunner]

but would it bigger enough of a deal for them to have a different part number, though it wouldn't surprise me if it was just the difference in a well taken care of engine, and a thrashed one.

until someone cracks toyota's comps, we will probably never know for sure

[ae86-matt]

also regarding st/bt, can someone clear this up for me.....

I'v heard that the st valves and associated gear is actually stronger than the equivilant bt stuff, because of toyota back in the day wanting to constantly make things lighter, thus in some ways weaker-------is this true???

cheers Matt.

[rthy]

I would imagine thats bullshit, both in stock form have flat bottom intake valves which are quite light

however if you like I can tomorrow put both side by side and do a visual check

[biggo]

personally i don't think it really matters.

BT is my personal opinion, simply because I'm poor and can never afford to pull my motors apart. I mean seriously serious how many of you kents on here pull the head off to get it 'worked' on?

i will buy a ST head one day and sticking a die grinder in there :)

[rthy]

I will let you know right now I personally think theres a bit to grind away, you need some long burrs too.

[kaibeecee]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Rollabender @ Jul 6 2008, 02:07 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557322)</div>
oh god, please search harder next time.

Read through peoples members rides, get opinions shit like that.

Mine - S/T ftw, cheaper, if you are going to rebuild it anyway the km's don't really matter. More aftermarket support than B/T. Difference in power is 3kW NEW. this basically two tenths of fuck all. People will say that they do feel different, but if you're modding it then all that shit becomes irrelevant. Buy a S/T already and search harder.[/b]

the aftermarket support base is so marginal (in the blacktops favour as well) that its a waste of time really making any comparison at all. don't try to argue it cause its a moot point.

if i had a choice, i'd get a blacktop, theyre a heaps punchier motor to drive in factory form if you know how to treat them

and yeah, the 2nd gen silvertops are a better compromise between the two, and you still get the stronger bottom end

[Chrisso]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (damo46 @ Jul 6 2008, 02:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557321)</div>
What do u guys reckon is a better engine, yes iam going to do a light build on the engine when i get it, cams. cam gears, pistons minor head work, etc.[/b]

If you're going to open it up and do this amont of work, I imagine you'll change your peripherals also, and will require an aftermarket ecu also - just mentioning as someone suggested a later ST has/may have different ecu programing. As stated earlier, you should be looking at things like the head design and other 'unchangeable' items which will dictate the maximum limits of your engine build. Read this post:

http://toymods.net/forums/showthread.php?t=27535 (How to build an NA engine - by ed_jza80)

[ke kid]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Sam_Q @ Jul 6 2008, 09:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=557544)</div>
however if you like I can tomorrow put both side by side and do a visual check[/b]

You wouldn't happen to have a spare intake and exaust valve for a silvertop would you? I'm in the middle of rebuilding mine and it turns out one intake and one exhaust valve had water sitting on them in the port and its corroded their faces <_<

[rthy]

no sorry I don't, however if it hasnt corroded the actual seat face them just chuck it under a wire brush

[ghetto ke]

I own a ST powered car AND a BT powered car. having driven both extensively, these are my observations. The ST has more bottom end and midrange. Above 5000rpm the BT kills the ST....no comparison! The ST starts to die off abit at high rpm, where as above 8000rpm the BT is still pumping like a porn star!

Again these are my observations so no sledging!

oh the BT is unbelievable on fuel. On the highway I can get 6.0ltr/100km and thrashing the bajoolies out off it the worst I have had is 8.0ltr/100km, I usually average 7.0ltr/100 city and it sees the rev limiter a couple of times a day ;-)

[rthy]

that is indeed unbelievable, gives me hope for a map based ecu tune

[Gunner]

Thats really good, though i will mention, that my old AE111, used to hammer through fuel if i was drivin hard, awesome consumption below 4000rpm, but over that it was shocking, even after i stuffed around tryin to get the afr a bit cleaner, i still only ended up in the high 12's though.

[ghetto ke]

gunbz-r, the car I own that has the BT is an AE111, I don't really care what it's fuel consumption is BUT every week I still do a calc as I'm amazed how good it is for the thrashing it gets :-)

[charged]

^^^^ he has seen my BT run, mine averages about 19.1L/100km or 14mpg... round Mallala :greenbounce: Nephews Turbos rollas average 41.6L/100km or 6.1 mpg round Lalla :blink:

[ghetto ke]

For the skeptics, I know the figures Charged's BT puts out, if I remember correctly they limited it to 9000rpm even though it had more in it(longevity etc) and back to back on that dyno the BT walked away from the ST at the top end. John have you managed to run Craig in a straight line to see what the differences are?

[charged]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (741 @ Jul 9 2008, 01:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=559012)</div>
For the skeptics, I know the figures Charged's BT puts out, if I remember correctly they limited it to 9000rpm even though it had more in it(longevity etc) and back to back on that dyno the BT walked away from the ST at the top end. John have you managed to run Craig in a straight line to see what the differences are?[/b]

Yeah I'm a bit quicker in a straight line than Craigs car , when Adam had it on the dyno he wanted to keep going as the power was still there. He is a nissan lover and was quite impressed by my ladys motor