New Wolf V500 Computer on 20v blacktop – tune problem??

[73ta22]

Blacktop 20valve into AE86 Sprinter

I am having ongoing troubles with getting the tune right. We can either get the tune running:

A) really well for hard driving: pulls really strong all the way up to 8000, but the coughs and farts along when you want to hold it at a set RPM (e.g. 3000 or 4000 RPM in daily conditions; OR
B) the opposite: good in daily conditions buts then coughs through about 5000-6000 & 7000-8000 RPM under full throttle.

We are currently map based; there is talk of going TPS based which I would like to avoid.

Note: custom plenum/ air filter/ and performing road tuning (no dyno). Engine is otherwise stock, timing is normal.

I know it could be mechanical (e.g. not collecting enough vacuum or reverberations through the inlet etc.), but the fact that we can get it feeling great everywhere; but just not put it all together seems like a tuning issue to me.

I have tried wolf, but they haven't been overly helpful. Does anyone have a gun map I could try, or some suggestions that may help me out?

Cheers guys. Luke

[rthy]

how are you getting the map signal exactly? from which point?

[shelldrake]

I have a good map - but it's tuned for my motor - cams, headwork, intake and exhaust, etc. But I am happy for you to try it. I assume the type of file used in the v500 is the same as the v4.

Also, it's setup for tps - But you can always try it, tweak it and see how you go...

[73ta22]

Thanks for your responce guys, sorry its taken me a while, but i had been away, plus its hard to get on the net at work.

Sam_Q - picking up the signal from what my mechanic tells me is the factory location on the inlet manifold. see pics attached. (towards the back near the firewall).

Shelldrake - that map sounds awesome. we are gonna have another go at it this saturday. can you pm me? or alternativly email lm.farrelly@student.qut.edu.au

Thanks again, i will post up a full history and pics of the conversion once i get it all sorted. thanks to Sam_Q; his 20v conversion threads helped us out a fair bit.

Cheers.

[shelldrake]

map sent...

[af300e]

Sorry to hijack, but where did you source the front mount dizzy and approx what cost was it? I have set up a similar system on my rwd 3sgte but it's a full custom job. I'm curious as to price more than anything.

[SpotterOne]

Are you sure that the ECU is set up with the stock MAP sensor in mind? I know I couldn't use the stock MAP sensor on my 16v when I changed to motec. I had to buy an atmospheric map sensor, and tell the motec what sensor it was.

Whats wrong with tuning to TPS?

[73ta22]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpotterOne @ Aug 12 2008, 10:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=574591)</div>
Are you sure that the ECU is set up with the stock MAP sensor in mind? I know I couldn't use the stock MAP sensor on my 16v when I changed to motec. I had to buy an atmospheric map sensor, and tell the motec what sensor it was.

Whats wrong with tuning to TPS?[/b]

I will find out RE: MAP sensor, cheers for the suggestion.

I was kind of hoping tuning with TPS would be my plan B, as i was under the impression that fuel economy would not be as good as a MAP based tune. But i don't know much about tuning at this stage, and am open to suggestions/advice/opinions.

Thanks.

[SpotterOne]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (73ta22 @ Aug 12 2008, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=574610)</div>
I will find out RE: MAP sensor, cheers for the suggestion.

I was kind of hoping tuning with TPS would be my plan B, as i was under the impression that fuel economy would not be as good as a MAP based tune. But i don't know much about tuning at this stage, and am open to suggestions/advice/opinions.

Thanks.[/b]

Don't get MAP confused with MAF (Mass Air Flow) or AFM (Air Flow Meter) as it is better known. The difference is that MAF can adjust (usually +-10%ish) your fuel map in relation to the volume of air coming into the engine. MAP v TPS simply provides a pre-determined amount of fuel at each throttle vs RPM setting.

AFAIK, there is little difference in fuel economy.

Mine is tuned with TPS vs RPM. Works a treat.

[af300e]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpotterOne @ Aug 12 2008, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=574710)</div>
MAP v TPS simply provides a pre-determined amount of fuel at each throttle vs RPM setting.[/b]

Um epic fail.

MAP sensor effectively senses load, so that is a another variable. Load vs revs vs TPS

[rthy]

I can't tell where the map signal is coming off and I really don't know much about tuning so I can't comment for sure about anything on the subject, however I can't see why a pure map only can't do a good job.

As for my guides, its good to hear someone has managed to find them usefull as I have a almost complete lack of feedback on them, not that I mind I just don't ever know if I have helped anyone at all thats all. I am slowly writing up my new cooling guide and its huge, unlike the old guide that was just a story on how I did mine previously.

Your dizzy relocation kit is interesting and I have an unsual idea for you, you with your aftermarket ecu can run echo coils/4 coils/2 coils in waste spark. All it would take is some basic setting up and then you would be able to get rid of your existing dizzy setup. Why I sugest this is because it may or may not make your engine bay look neater but because you might make a nice profit out of it while going to a setup that requires less maintenance

[SpotterOne]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (af300e @ Aug 12 2008, 05:58 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=574758)</div>
Um epic fail.

MAP sensor effectively senses load, so that is a another variable. Load vs revs vs TPS[/b]

Um epic fail.

The MAP sensor used with a motec is atmospheric i.e. does not plug into the intake manifold, and therefore only compensates for air pressure changes. I was simply asking if the Wolf required a similar thing.

[73ta22]

Thanks to those that provided comment.

We seemed to have solved the problem; here is my best explanation in case it can help someone else in the future:

Reverberations in the inlet manifold were travelling down the vacuum hose sensor to the wolf computer and feeding it inaccurate data. This fluctuating vacuum confuses the computer and subsequently speeds and slows the engine trying to compensate for the signals it is receiving. The problem was fixed by splicing a fuel filter into this vacuum hose, which acts like a little reservoir to average & ‘smooth out' the vacuum signal.

Long story short: fuel filter in vacuum hose = problem fixed.

[rthy]

ah interesting, I have heard of also having the option of putting a small chamber in-line to even it out but never heard of anyone actually doing it

[af300e]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpotterOne @ Aug 12 2008, 11:33 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=574916)</div>
Um epic fail.

The MAP sensor used with a motec is atmospheric i.e. does not plug into the intake manifold, and therefore only compensates for air pressure changes. I was simply asking if the Wolf required a similar thing.[/b]

Then it's not MAP sensor. MAP = manifold absolute pressure.

You're probably looking at an air TEMP sensor, unless the motec needs individual atmos and intake to reference the pressure (in which case there would be another one on the engine side of the throttle), most MAP sensors have the atmos side built in to reference and adjust for barometric pressure changes.

[SpotterOne]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (af300e @ Aug 19 2008, 07:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=577376)</div>
Then it's not MAP sensor. MAP = manifold absolute pressure.

You're probably looking at an air TEMP sensor, unless the motec needs individual atmos and intake to reference the pressure (in which case there would be another one on the engine side of the throttle), most MAP sensors have the atmos side built in.[/b]

Quote from the Motec M4 User Manual located here which justifies my original suggestion:

http://www.motec.com.au/downloads/downloadmanuals/
(see p14)

Normally Aspirated Engines
3D Fuel and Ignition Tables
Use Throttle Position load sensing.
The MAP sensor may be used to compensate for barometric pressure
changes by venting it to atmospheric pressure.

Besides that, my air temp sensor and MAP sensor look ever so slightly different :blink:

Not that this helps explain anything in the original post, nor provide a solution to the problem that has since been fixed, but since you chose to have a crack, I can justify a reply.

Well done guys on finding the problem. Glad it wasn't what I suggested because it means your tuner knows how to set up your ECU, which is a good thing.

[af300e]

<div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (SpotterOne @ Aug 12 2008, 04:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}> (index.php?act=findpost&pid=574710)</div>
MAP v TPS simply provides a pre-determined amount of fuel at each throttle vs RPM setting.[/b]

Ok, but this^^ is still wrong. On most systems the map senses manifold pressure. On your system it seems the a map sensor is only used as a trim tool for altitude compensation, in other words, it's not actually functioning as a manifold absolute pressure sensor.

I read that manual you posted a link for, but you obviously haven't. Do read it, you'll learn some stuff. You might find out that your setup uses TPS to load sense, where as 73ta22's setup (which uses a MAP sensor in the natural sense) uses MAP to sense load.

Therefore your original point has nothing to do with the actual question which was to do with a map sensor acting as a map sensor and not just a trimming tool.

I only had a crack because I'm sick of people who don't know speaking shit as though they are some sort of authority. The guy comes on with a question about whether his ITB, map based system is getting enough vacuum and you spruik some totally unrelated shit about barometric compensation and make bizzare claims about the nature of MAP vs TPS systems? All it does is throw red herrings that might confuse a person who is not sure and lessen the integrity of the rest of the tech advice on the forum.

Next time, don't base your advice on your system when it is clearly different to the system in question.

[ta22max]

I am running the same setup here, on my 2TG with after market ITB's at first I was running a Haltech F7C running MAP, which ran like crap when i went to ITB only ran well for full throttle or cruise not both, so I purchased a V400 Wolf was the best purchase I made for the car, as I changed over to throttle position instead of MAP, made it very crisp all through the range and very responsive.
I did all this work my self too, the wiring and throttle body to ITB setup.

^^
af300e is correct,