Diesel power... Yes or No?

[letsgohunting]

In light of the discussion of diesel engines that vaguely happened in the TRD thread, I decided to make a new thread dedicated to diesel power. What do you think of it?


Some interesting links:

Audi R10 tdi promo vid - stunning video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GwMfYDBX3lE&feature=related

Another Audi video - called "a dawn of new power":
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzDbNWZsDOQ&feature=related

Track camera of Audi R10 tdi @ lemans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuNtw5XbxJg

[Sprinterboy]

I'm for it. BMW have been making Diesel Race cars for a while. I'd like to see somebody here in Aus build up something for IPRA.

[fantapants]

isnt the biggest thing keeping it out of grass roots racing the weight???

the big manufacturers all have their special alloy blocks to withstand the pressures, but for the rest of us arnt we still stuck with the cast iron till he newer stuff filters down?

[KE35Punk]

I personally dont particularly like diesel myself as I personally feel from what I have read on fuel that there are other fuels that will equally do that same job as diesel given the same RnD and money.

I think audi has done a good job developing the diesel engine to produce good strong torque. but the very nature of the diesel is not as good I think as maybe alcohol fuels or even normal petroleum. Apparently I am told that it is far cheaper to produce diesel then normal petroleum so the petrol companies enjoy healthier profits.

I think fully electric cars could replace petrol cars in the short term.

please feel free to reply with your thought and opinions. Id be happy to explain more of why I feel this way.

[letsgohunting]

I personally dont particularly like diesel myself as I personally feel from what I have read on fuel that there are other fuels that will equally do that same job as diesel given the same RnD and money.

I think audi has done a good job developing the diesel engine to produce good strong torque. but the very nature of the diesel is not as good I think as maybe alcohol fuels or even normal petroleum. Apparently I am told that it is far cheaper to produce diesel then normal petroleum so the petrol companies enjoy healthier profits.

I think fully electric cars could replace petrol cars in the short term.

please feel free to reply with your thought and opinions. Id be happy to explain more of why I feel this way.

The thing about electric cars is that electricity isn't free - fossil fuels are a primary source of making electricity. So the whole point is sort of nullified.

The reason diesel is cheaper to produce is because it's much less refined. You can actually make diesel out of old kitchen grease and cooking oils - it's called biodiesel. It works really well.

Go for a drive in a BMW 330d. Or a 530d. They both hit 100kph in around 6.5 seconds and use that same figure in fuel consumption. Plus the motors have endless torque and even sound pretty nice.

[fantapants]

alcohol is a terrible supplement for current fuel sources. The australian government is pushing ethanol purely because of promises it made to the farming industry in fnq. The production of ethanol as a fuel source is soooo inneeficient.its something like 100 tonnes of sugar cane for 1 tank of ethanol??

but for the health of the economy, the government is pumping money into ethanol plants to give sugar cane farmers a reason to exist.

Bio diesel is certainly a better option. The oil can be wholly renewable, and australia has plenty of land to grow the substandard olives that can be used. The polutants from diesal are heavier but far less poisonous than unleaded. As they are soo simple in make up, the exhasut gas can be reburnt... think big microwave oven in the exhaust system instead of a cat :) that clears the polutants to almost nothing.

Diesal engines have two things against them. historically they have been VERY heavy... to cope with the pressures involved. This leeds to the second point, due to this heavyness of the pistoons, conrods etc etc etc, they do not rev, and therefor lack power. These are the min improvements in the race design engines, much much lighter and revier in nature.... they get MASSIVE powerbands :)

Electric cars are also great for torque, with many having reducer motors to overcome the amount of torque generated. But right now electric cars are not that good for the environment. The electricity is dirty, the manufacture of both the car and batteris is VERY dirty and the manufacturing right now is expensive. Thats not to say it isnt a way forward, just that a lot needs to change :)

[biggo]

There is a town in europe that has almost no fossil fuel vehicles. All electricity is make via melting snow or something to do with water down a valcanic hole. Apperantly its free to recharge your car in the town too.

But yair, deisel is win, ive driven one of them TDi golfs... not bad and you feel better cos your helping the environment :P

[H8CHIR6KU]

newer euro and jap diesel powered cars have come along way in recent times. they are very fuel efficient and emmisions are very limited. with cat burn off technology diesels are running cleaner than ever.

judging by the way european manufacturers are taking to diesel's in everyday cars and there strict emmision laws i would say diesel is the way of the future... for now

[ae71]

i know my old mans newish (6months old now) mazda BT50 uterous has a fucken lot of punt! probaly quicker than my ke upto 80km's. it will fry 2nd without a worry and churps 3rd but who is counting.

not anything at all like his old 90's patrol which was slow didnt rev past 2,000. this thing revs upto about 3500 before it cuts the boost.

[Juturna]

alcohol is a terrible supplement for current fuel sources. The australian government is pushing ethanol purely because of promises it made to the farming industry in fnq. The production of ethanol as a fuel source is soooo inneeficient.its something like 100 tonnes of sugar cane for 1 tank of ethanol??

but for the health of the economy, the government is pumping money into ethanol plants to give sugar cane farmers a reason to exist.

Bio diesel is certainly a better option. The oil can be wholly renewable, and australia has plenty of land to grow the substandard olives that can be used. The polutants from diesal are heavier but far less poisonous than unleaded. As they are soo simple in make up, the exhasut gas can be reburnt... think big microwave oven in the exhaust system instead of a cat :) that clears the polutants to almost nothing.

Diesal engines have two things against them. historically they have been VERY heavy... to cope with the pressures involved. This leeds to the second point, due to this heavyness of the pistoons, conrods etc etc etc, they do not rev, and therefor lack power. These are the min improvements in the race design engines, much much lighter and revier in nature.... they get MASSIVE powerbands :)

Electric cars are also great for torque, with many having reducer motors to overcome the amount of torque generated. But right now electric cars are not that good for the environment. The electricity is dirty, the manufacture of both the car and batteris is VERY dirty and the manufacturing right now is expensive. Thats not to say it isnt a way forward, just that a lot needs to change :)


not quite, the race engines still only rev to 5-5500. but because they have power and tourque all the way through they can use longer gears and thus change less. the audi lemans car only revs to 5500 and has a 5 speed box when petrol lemans cars are running 8-12 speed transaxles to stay in their narrow power bands.

[Konakid]

Arent diesel fumes worse than standard unleaded fuel? Negating any positives effects of the lower consumption?

Swore i read that somewhere...

[H8CHIR6KU]

Arent diesel fumes worse than standard unleaded fuel? Negating any positives effects of the lower consumption?

Swore i read that somewhere...

maybe so with older diesel cars but newer diesel cars run much more efficiently and cleaner than unleaded cars. most newer diesels run cat converter systems that store carbon and carbon offsets. then as the catalysts become full the cats burn it off. temps from the burn off get as high as 550-600 celsius. this creates chemical reactions and yada yada etc etc. in the end the outcome is very very minimal harmful emmisions

when i was doing training at holden for this system we tried it and burnt the floor. it turned out your supposed to do it while driving. haha

[driftke70]

yeah they did studies in the uk, turns out that diseasals just make finers particles than they were used to dealing with, and are actually worse. And they dont get burnt out, they go from one engine and to the next until they get heavier and heavier and eventually either fall down somewhere, get stuck in a lung or air cleaner. Are also very carcinogenic too.

but i still like them, a mate has a dmax, 6.5L twin turbo, diseasal v8 in his patrol, pulls 12s.
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=nW4B-RUF3eQ

[dAYTONA]

I own a 2003 2.0 TDCI Ford Mondeo (130hp, 330nm) and it pulls like crazy, before we bought it, I checked all other turbo diesels available, and had test drives in nissans, citroens, mazdas, vw's, but the mondeo has factory overboost, and it was most powerfull in it's class and price range at the time. 4th gear 80 to 120km/h acceleration is better than in the Mondeo ST220 (220hp 280nm), even though 0-100 times are better in the ST220.

Living in europe for the last 8 years or so, I've also driven an Audi A6 Quattro 3.0 TDi 221hp, 450nm@1400rpm, an Audi A8 Quattro 4.0 TDi V8, 275hp, 650nm@1600rpm, and been a passenger in the latest 745d bmw, which has 700nm and 335hp. All I can say is, that when the diesels accelerate they pull the same thoughout the revs, because their torque curve is usually flat, from just above idle...

One thing they lack is the exhaust note of petrol engines when modified. I have a friend in poland who has a modified bmw 325tds touring, has a 3" exhaust, front mount ic, and when he canes it, it sounds like a truck accelerating without a loud, down a hill... really loud too.

I don't mind modern diesels, they are bloody fast, and not as noisey as they used to be.

[enigma]

in most european countries diesel is the same price or in some cases much cheaper than petrol. which is why it is so popular over there. in austailia trucks ruin our roads. so the government wanted to tax them to pay for the damage they do. but a tax for driving on the road is prohibited by our constitution. so they put an excise on diesel. plus with our gst on the total price. so with a $3000 premium over a new petrol car even with better fuel economy you never break even.

also i think its the golf(could be wrong) that only comes with the small diesel filler and in the country not all petrol stations have a bowser cos they have high flow ones

[fantapants]

in most european countries diesel is the same price or in some cases much cheaper than petrol. which is why it is so popular over there. in austailia trucks ruin our roads. so the government wanted to tax them to pay for the damage they do. but a tax for driving on the road is prohibited by our constitution. so they put an excise on diesel. plus with our gst on the total price. so with a $3000 premium over a new petrol car even with better fuel economy you never break even.

also i think its the golf(could be wrong) that only comes with the small diesel filler and in the country not all petrol stations have a bowser cos they have high flow ones


pretty sure the excise... was only a reversal of the subsidy the government had been payiing to keep deisal cheap for transport costs. The conspiracy theory of governments wanting trucks to stop using the roads is frankly wrong. There would be so many onflow effects that the country would literally collapse.

its not the price that has made deisal soo attractive. In fact in most european countries deisal is only significantly cheaper for machinery and hauling... they use different coloured deisal and its easy to spot on road side testing. the fines are astronomical. The reason europe has gone full gang for deisal is the same japan is so heavily invested in hydrogen. Availability. Bio deisal hs been VERY opular in europe for decades, and they have centuries of production to draw apon for cheap renewable oil resources. It makes sense. Japan dosnt have a lot of land. It has a fuclkload of water at its becon call though. You make do with whats available. Thats my problem with alcohol based fuels. All its doing is artificialy inflating the sugarcane industry instead of investing in long term sustainability. America will be the only long term market for alcohol fuels, they are doing it for the same reasons, so exporting wont be a big winner. The australian market isnt big enough to sustain the market for very long, and asia will hit hydrogen in a big way in the next 2 decades. The biodeisal ( i keep changing the spelling of diesal :)) requires substandard farming land and non consumption quality oil producers. Using the vast quantities of land available in wa along a coast with self sufficient sea water purification for land managment, its a wholly renewable fuel source.

sorry for the essay.

yeah also further up... i didnt mean they are revy.... just that the new generation engines are REVVIER...... 5500 is fucking hugs for a deisal :)

[shichi~]

when petrol runs out and theres only electric cars im going to neck my self :)

[Golberg]

The thing about electric cars is that electricity isn't free - fossil fuels are a primary source of making electricity. So the whole point is sort of nullified.

I don't agree at all, whilst I understand the point you are making its not nullified at all. Its is MUCH more efficient to create electricity in a power station than generate power from a combustion engine.

For example:
Say you put X amount of fossil fuel into a power station and the same into a car.

The electricity generated from the power station would power several more cars than just the single combustion engined car which you put the same amount of fuel into.

I mean I love fossil fuel powered cars, but its not going to last.

EDIT - Sorry kinda adding more off topic spurs to an already off topic spur thread

[Rice86]

when petrol runs out and theres only electric cars im going to neck my self :)

i'll go back to riding horses with a cardboard bodykit of a ae86. 1hp at all for wheels baby!! :DD

[Beck]

A horse is the ultimate all-terrain vehicle.

[Dom86]

Lol.

All I know is I can get 800km out of a 65L tank from my Hilux. And it tows my drift car well enough... I definately get it now.

[driftke70]

I don't agree at all, whilst I understand the point you are making its not nullified at all. Its is MUCH more efficient to create electricity in a power station than generate power from a combustion engine.

For example:
Say you put X amount of fossil fuel into a power station and the same into a car.

The electricity generated from the power station would power several more cars than just the single combustion engined car which you put the same amount of fuel into.

I mean I love fossil fuel powered cars, but its not going to last.

EDIT - Sorry kinda adding more off topic spurs to an already off topic spur thread

yeah batteries and cells in general have a much shorter life expectancy than a combustion engine, and create alot more pollution, and requre alot more energy and materials to create.

[KE70]

Electric cars are good for city use and in a few years you will see more and more of them. Some only cost 80c to charge up for a 150-200km range. We need to get off the reliance off oil, electricity prices are much more stable and cheaper.

Petrol and Diesel powered cars will still be here for a while so no need to worry about performance.

In europe diesel in most cases is cheaper by a fair bit, thats why there are heaps of diesel cars.
I Australia we need to concentrate on having more LPG and electric cars since we have huge amount of coal and gas reserves.

On this topic- spend enough money on any propulsion technology and it will hammer, lol

Also massively off topic- we need to invest in nuclear power, the only way we will clean up our act without affecting our economy.

[driftke70]

do you know how much energy and cost is involved in producing a battery, id rather drive a car knowing it will be around for another 20 years than drive an electric car that the batteries need to be replaced in every 3 or so years. Not to mention the pollution made transporting the raw materials across the ocean, the factory, etc,

charging up on a wall just means the pollution comes out at a coal station, if there was nuclear energy it might almost make sense but there isnt, and there wont be for a long time in australia.

[biggo]

Did you know there is no safe way to dispose of a battery. Theyre like termites with no pest controller.

So long as there is oil i will use it, only because its the lesser of 2 weevils. Some newer diesels are no better than they were 20yrs ago. Nissan are a prime example.

[Javal]

Did you know there is no safe way to dispose of a battery. Theyre like termites with no pest controller.

So long as there is oil i will use it, only because its the lesser of 2 weevils. Some newer diesels are no better than they were 20yrs ago. Nissan are a prime example.

This is correct.

I haven't read the thread, btw.

Modern passenger diesels are quite good these days. Turbodiesel astras are good fun :hehe:

This is all the input i have to offer.

K.

[quadeyquade]

Why would you throw the batterys out, wouldnt you just rebuild them like they do with electric pallet jacks etc?

[driftke70]

yeah but the stuff inside em still gets turfed